The new D3 league(s)

[Redcoatsforever]

Ontario, Québec, we both have one coming up. I don't know much about the Québec situation, but I figured having one thread for both new leagues would be a good idea.

So, as it stands it's probably going to be Milltown FC, FC Hamilton Croatia, and 6 others (one of which may well be Pickering Power) to form the new D3 league in Ontario. As I recall a while back when the application was submitted, they mentioned having clubs in the GTA and London, among other places. Does anybody remember the locations of prospective owners they were speaking to?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Definitely wasn't London from what I remember although we did speculate at length about how a London team could emerge in the thread that followed. From memory it was Hamilton, Peel-Halton, Toronto, Durham region, Ottawa and Montreal in the proposal PDF that were confirmed as being on board with further written expression of interest having been received from teams in the GTA. May track down the link later to confirm.

Edit: got the six confirmed right but was off a bit on the written expressions of interest.

http://www.canadakicks.com/docs/info_package.pdf

The new league also has written expressions of interest from 3 other groups based in the Greater Toronto Area and Southwestern Ontario.

That's what prompted our speculation about London although I suspect it may have been the Kitchener group that had been lined up for 2011 CSL expansion by DiGironimo and co.

[Redcoatsforever]

That's what prompted our speculation about London although I suspect it may have been the Kitchener group that had been lined up for 2011 CSL expansion by DiGironimo and co.

That's too bad, it would be nice to have a new club in the area.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Just an educated guess on my part so you never know. London has several soccer specific venues that would be suitable for a D3 league (German Club, Marconi Club, Portuguese Club and Hellenic Centre and at a push maybe the Curinga Club are the obvious ones. The Croatian, White Eagles, Scottish, Serb and Croatian clubs are probably too far out in boonies). Couple that with one of the larger youth clubs that can support stuff like a full-time club head coach and it's probably possible to tick many/most of the boxes in D3 sanctioning terms. The tricky part would be making the internal politics work on something like that without it all degenerating into London City vs North London type feuds.

Hopefully over time what we'll see is lots of top community based clubs from right across southern Ontario trying to be all they can be rather than having the semi-pro level of the sport dominated by Walter Mitty type investors who lose interest or run out of money after a few years leaving nothing in the way of a legacy when their "franchise" folds.

[ThiKu]

QC and ONT D.3. Great. Hopefully they can do everything right the CSL has done wrong. I wonder if these models are being observed and discussed in other parts of the world. I'll email the Technical Director of a BC youth club I know....though his answer will be "not heard anything" as they've all just set-up the youth premier league.

Any chance Toronto Lynx will want to join the D3 league?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Might be worth checking the search function. Think there were posts about them leaving PDL for the CSL at one point.

[Redcoatsforever]

Might be worth checking the search function. Think there were posts about them leaving PDL for the CSL at one point.

Toronto Lynx would probably be a good fit. Having a senior men's semi-pro team in D3 would be a good idea. I think the same idea for FC London might be a real winner, too.

[hamiltonfan]

Massive developments. Credit to all those involved. However, the new Ontario and Quebec leagues must communicate and work together to develop a D3 structure that can be implemented throughout the country, ie. CHL->WHL,OHL,QMJL. All standards must be the level; pay, stadium, field, management ect.

[BugerKing]

I'm pleased with the idea of having a D3 team in Durham. Too bad this league and the CSL can't operate under the same banner. I'm not really up on all the issues, but it just seems it would better to have one strong D3 league.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Toronto Lynx would probably be a good fit. Having a senior men's semi-pro team in D3 would be a good idea. I think the same idea for FC London might be a real winner, too.

Will be interesting to see what unfolds on that. Suspect it will take a long time to undo the legacy of London City in terms of peoples' perceptions in and around London of what is and isn't worth watching. PDL doesn't seem to work in spectator terms in CFL level cities like Toronto, Ottawa, Winnipeg and Hamilton but it does in smaller cities like London and Victoria so might be risky to step away from that. On the flip side FC London's owner seems to be frustrated at least in his public statements by the short duration of the PDL season and entry into USL Pro could be problematic for a variety of reasons. Personally think the big thing in the short term isn't so much what happens with PDL teams but what happens with TFC Academy, however. That's who top youth clubs with the finances to do what Erin Mills did this summer will really want to be playing against and is very much the ticket to getting a mention on a wide range of media outlets including Gol TV.

[Guest Ed]

Sorry for my ignorance, but does this D3 league slide in below NASL but above CSL (and corresponding provincial league in the Quebec situation)???

[Juby]

Sorry for my ignorance, but does this D3 league slide in below NASL but above CSL (and corresponding provincial league in the Quebec situation)???

I thought all three leagues were going to be roughly parallel, the new leagues earlier have mentioned minimum salaries a little below the CSL to start, so it may not be surprising if the CSL seems to have an edge the first season (no clue about the top teams though) but I think it'll will be a matter of if they can get right into step of improving upon their last season when things will get more muddled. Still time for either of these leagues too do a bang up job on bringing in sponsors to get some extra money.

and BBTB, seriously, you've spent a tonne of time trying to dissuade this type of expansion in the past in favour of the pdl, can you let some OTHER people talk about it, your half this thread, literally. I generally support the CSL (to be honest though I'm stoked for all three leagues) but I don't plan on saying much besides 'good idea' and maybe an idea if one strikes me.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Sorry for my ignorance, but does this D3 league slide in below NASL but above CSL (and corresponding provincial league in the Quebec situation)???

On paper probably the other way about given a CSA sanctioned league probably takes precedence over a provincially sanctioned one in status terms. It seems unlikely that both setups will still be there five years from now, however, so in practice that may not actually matter all that much. Milltown FC and Hamilton Croatia appear to have been part of a larger faction of more recent entries into the CSL that wanted the league to move in a different direction from that envisaged by the group of older "franchises" that own the league in equity terms. How things unfold in the short term will probably be determined by how many (if any) CSL teams will announce over the next few weeks that they are shifting over to the new Ontario and Quebec leagues for the 2012 season.

Massive developments. Credit to all those involved. However, the new Ontario and Quebec leagues must communicate and work together to develop a D3 structure that can be implemented throughout the country, ie. CHL->WHL,OHL,QMJL. All standards must be the level; pay, stadium, field, management ect.

Junior hockey is based on student athletes so isn't really relevant in this discussion, in my opinion. The real parallel would be with senior A hockey and the Allan Cup. Beyond that I think the idea of rigid national standards runs counter to the federal nature of Canada. If the new semi-pro league in Quebec firmly establishes itself it will probably be very difficult to put the genie back in the bottle in terms of the provincial associations calling the shots at D3 level at least during the regular season. The natural role for the CSA in a federal arrangement is to organize a tournament between the ten provincial champions to determine an overall national champion as already happens at the amateur level. Personally think there is no need to reinvent the wheel on that and no obvious reason not to have semi-pro teams compete in that context as well (as happens in senior hockey where the Allan Cup is concerned in what was originally an amateurs only national championship), but judging from press releases there already seem to have been discussions between the new Quebec league and the CSL to organize some sort of semi-pro national championship at the end of the 2012 season.

Finally, the whole PDL vs semi-pro D3 angle probably does need to be addressed given my opinion on this is being consistently misrepresented at the moment by a poster I have on ignore in a manner that may confuse people. I think there is an important role to be played by both for reasons I described in a blog entry about a year ago:

http://canadiansocceropinion.blogspot.com/2010/12/where-now-for-d3-level-soccer-in-canada.html

[ThiKu]

There is an important role for both PDL and D3 leagues. But the main point being one is amateur (so as not to risk American college prospects) and the other wouldn't be. Thus, the PDL should likely have a largely younger focus while a D3 can have some of the more "veteran" types. Though, I am a firm believer a D3 needs to have a "youth requirement" of some sort. Maybe it is that D3 teams loan their younger brighter players to PDL during the PDL season so as to build synchronicity and "community" in this country. ??

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Maybe the biggest thing from that standpoint is ensuring that D3 teams always have a youth system associated with them so they are a genuine soccer club? Things have been moving in that direction in recent years in southern Ontario. Think the arrival of TFC Academy on the scene has helped a lot of people in suburban youth soccer clubs to finally grasp what the point of elite youth teams is really supposed to be (i.e. developing players for senior level teams rather than winning trophies at the youth level).

Will be interesting to see if that slowly leads to a shift in demographics where future CMNT players are concerned away from a first and second generation immigrant demographic where that mentality is more prevalent due to the influence of an overseas soccer culture. As things stand right now teams with names like Croatia or Serbian White Eagles tend to do well in D3 leagues because playing soccer competitively into your 20s and 30s is part of the culture in that context in a way it isn't if the club you have played for at the youth level has no teams beyond the U18 level.

To have a strong and vibrant grass roots there's more to it than kids chasing the full ride NCAA scholarship and/or pro career sort of dream then giving up if that fails to materialize. In places where there is a strong soccer culture playing for the local lower division team is also treated with a great deal of respect as well and isn't viewed as playing for a "beer league" team. It's difficult to take CSL teams like London City and the North York Astros seriously from that sort of standpoint but if the right structure were in place where there is a penalty in league status terms for failing to field a competitive side I think that could quickly start to change.

[crashvegas]

Maybe the biggest thing from that standpoint is ensuring that D3 teams always have a youth system associated with them so they are a genuine soccer club? Things have been moving in that direction in recent years in southern Ontario. Think the arrival of TFC Academy on the scene has helped a lot of people in suburban youth soccer clubs to finally grasp what the point of elite youth teams is really supposed to be (i.e. developing players for senior level teams rather than winning trophies at the youth level).

Will be interesting to see if that slowly leads to a shift in demographics where future CMNT players are concerned away from a first and second generation immigrant demographic where that mentality is more prevalent due to the influence of an overseas soccer culture. As things stand right now teams with names like Croatia or Serbian White Eagles tend to do well in D3 leagues because playing soccer competitively into your 20s and 30s is part of the culture in that context in a way it isn't if the club you have played for at the youth level has no teams beyond the U18 level.

To have a strong and vibrant grass roots there's more to it than kids chasing the full ride NCAA scholarship and/or pro career sort of dream then giving up if that fails to materialize. In places where there is a strong soccer culture playing for the local lower division team is also treated with a great deal of respect as well and isn't viewed as playing for a "beer league" team. It's difficult to take CSL teams like London City and the North York Astros seriously from that sort of standpoint but if the right structure were in place where there is a penalty in league status terms for failing to field a competitive side I think that could quickly start to change.

That is bang on BBTB. Currently there are some misleading trends afoot in Ontario with respect to independent youth academies - that they will be responsible for developing the next crop of top Canadian talent. I disagree. I absolutely believe that local clubs need to have youth academies in place to develop players for their own senior sides; and that it is the senior side that should be the ultimate focus of the club (not producing a win-oriented youth structure, but a skill-learning youth structure).

The unfortunate trend of having some top local professional soccer coaches run and market independent youth academies will do little to develop Canada's game - these youths will then be marketed off to other countries/leagues where a professional opportunity exists, potentially setting up scenarios a la jonathan deguzman.

To get back to the focus of my post: these new leagues offer more opportunity for local sides to compete on a (more) professional stage - and lets not limit it to cities - I can see some smaller communities with the desire to field a semi-pro side. This will then lead to a better grass-roots organization capable of producing an overall higher level of soccer player, because youth will have the tradition of developing towards playing for their own home town at the least.

[ThiKu]

As this is more-than-anything a CMNT supporters forum I have to play devil's advocate here and say "potentially setting up scenarios a la jonathan deguzman" is basically exactly what is needed. Except of course we want the kids to commit to Canada MNT not some high-ranked Euro club.

But yes, as a CANADIAN soccer support the youth clubs should be focusing on developing talents for senior sides.

Youth clubs have to be for developing senior talent, not "winning."

[crashvegas]

As this is more-than-anything a CMNT supporters forum I have to play devil's advocate here and say "potentially setting up scenarios a la jonathan deguzman" is basically exactly what is needed. Except of course we want the kids to commit to Canada MNT not some high-ranked Euro club.

But yes, as a CANADIAN soccer support the youth clubs should be focusing on developing talents for senior sides.

Youth clubs have to be for developing senior talent, not "winning."

I guess what I forgot to add in my previous post, was that it is just as important to develop the tradition of playing for a Canadian pro team (even if it is for a short period) as it is to develop the skill to play; therefore, hopefully avoiding scenarios a la JDG2 and Whoregreaves, et.c.

Instilling more Canadiana into the skill development with the lowest common professional goal being playing for your own home town pro team.

[futbolfan]

who is the d3 team representing ottawa?

[Macksam]

Junior hockey is based on student athletes so isn't really relevant in this discussion, in my opinion. The real parallel would be with senior A hockey and the Allan Cup. Beyond that I think the idea of rigid national standards runs counter to the federal nature of Canada. If the new semi-pro league in Quebec firmly establishes itself it will probably be very difficult to put the genie back in the bottle in terms of the provincial associations calling the shots at D3 level at least during the regular season. The natural role for the CSA in a federal arrangement is to organize a tournament between the ten provincial champions to determine an overall national champion as already happens at the amateur level. Personally think there is no need to reinvent the wheel on that and no obvious reason not to have semi-pro teams compete in that context as well (as happens in senior hockey where the Allan Cup is concerned in what was originally an amateurs only national championship), but judging from press releases there already seem to have been discussions between the new Quebec league and the CSL to organize some sort of semi-pro national championship at the end of the 2012 season.

Finally, the whole PDL vs semi-pro D3 angle probably does need to be addressed given my opinion on this is being consistently misrepresented at the moment by a poster I have on ignore in a manner that may confuse people. I think there is an important role to be played by both for reasons I described in a blog entry about a year ago:

http://canadiansocceropinion.blogspot.com/2010/12/where-now-for-d3-level-soccer-in-canada.html

You always jump on this fact with glee. Just because the CHL uses student athletes exclusively, it does not make parallels between that league and potential division three soccer irrelavent. For example, I think the inclusion of TFC academy, a team comprised of student athletes, in the CSL would make the comparison somewhat relavent. Do not just shake off any mention of the CHL as "not relavent".

[Juby]

Finally, the whole PDL vs semi-pro D3 angle probably does need to be addressed given my opinion on this is being consistently misrepresented at the moment by a poster I have on ignore in a manner that may confuse people. I think there is an important role to be played by both for reasons I described in a blog entry about a year ago:

No, your opinions have changed and you avoided admitting you've changed your opinions, so as far as I know your just contradicting yourself, also you can't even stay consistent. Just a week ago you were describing the situation 'as nothing's ever gonna change' and now your apparently a huge proponent of independant canadian leagues where just weeks ago you attributed it to foolish nationalistic pride? You act like it's the worst thing in the world to have egg on your face, like it's important to pretend you've always been saying whatever happened (the truth is he went on against any sort of national leagues until finally (probably about a year ago) came up with his 'idea' (partly what everyone was trying to say to him) of having semi pro leagues around cities (btw that is almost everyone's 'step 1' in eventually getting a national league for years), oddly keeping them somewhat secondary to the american leagues even at their amateur levels and keeping him still against a 'national' division. Its not so much an idea as a house of cards, and look at the thread title, this is the exact WRONG place to talk about your 'put as many eggs in their basket' 'idea'. Ohhh I almost forgot, he's also got a super original idea of, get this, a national cup as good enough as a league (instead of aiming for both).

Sorry, shutting up now. If people want, the further they manage to travel backwords in your posts, the funnier it will get.

[Redcoatsforever]

No, your opinions have changed and you avoided admitting you've changed your opinions, so as far as I know your just contradicting yourself, also you can't even stay consistent. Just a week ago you were describing the situation 'as nothing's ever gonna change' and now your apparently a huge proponent of independant canadian leagues where just weeks ago you attributed it to foolish nationalistic pride? You act like it's the worst thing in the world to have egg on your face, like it's important to pretend you've always been saying whatever happened (the truth is he went on against any sort of national leagues until finally (probably about a year ago) came up with his 'idea' (partly what everyone was trying to say to him) of having semi pro leagues around cities (btw that is almost everyone's 'step 1' in eventually getting a national league for years), oddly keeping them somewhat secondary to the american leagues even at their amateur levels and keeping him still against a 'national' division. Its not so much an idea as a house of cards, and look at the thread title, this is the exact WRONG place to talk about your 'put as many eggs in their basket' 'idea'. Ohhh I almost forgot, he's also got a super original idea of, get this, a national cup as good enough as a league (instead of aiming for both).

Sorry, shutting up now. If people want, the further they manage to travel backwords in your posts, the funnier it will get.

Okay, come on.

I recall having many infuriating arguments with BBTB about the possibility of a national league, and yes, I remember him saying it was impossible (I still disagree). I also remember him having an axe to grind with the CSL ownership. All of that is true. I do not recall a single statement claiming that all-Canadian D3 leagues were doomed to fail. Having a preference of PDL over CSL in particular does not an anti-Canadian D3 argument make.

Further, the Challenge Cup makes all of it moot. Regardless of arguments about national cup feasability, there already is one.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

who is the d3 team representing ottawa?

Right now that would be Capital City FC of the CSL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_City_FC

I think the investor in that was originally interested in a D2 team in USL-D1 so suspect that may not last too long if the NASL expansion team based on the PDL Fury team actually happens and hangs around for a few years because the D2 level may still be the end game for him.

The new Ontario league claimed to have a commitment from an Ottawa team in their literature for possible member teams earlier this year. Not sure if that means that there could be a CSL, Ontario provincial D3 and PDL team in Ottawa this summer plus a D3 team in the new Quebec league just over the river in Gatineau all travelling to other cities to play their regular season games rather than playing against each other. A lot of politics will probably unfold on this stuff over the next few months.

You always jump on this fact with glee. Just because the CHL uses student athletes exclusively, it does not make parallels between that league and potential division three soccer irrelavent. For example, I think the inclusion of TFC academy, a team comprised of student athletes, in the CSL would make the comparison somewhat relavent. Do not just shake off any mention of the CHL as "not relavent".

Ignoring the odd comment about glee, if all the teams in D3 soccer were academy teams associated with D1 and D2 pro teams then there would be a parallel with the CHL. When the vast majority of teams are open-age semi-pro in format the valid parallel is clearly with senior AAA hockey and intercounty baseball which tend to be much more limited in scope geographically because older players with a nine to five job, a wife and kid to support financially and a mortgage to pay off do not have the same amount of time available to them that high school kids or NCAA students on their summer break have to sit on buses on the way to and from away games.

Shouldn't be a difficult concept to grasp but maybe you need to actually have played for and/or coached a competitive senior level side that trains on weeknights for a weekend game to understand the issues involved? Difficult enough to deal with stuff like "No we can't go away to see your parents on the long weekend because I have a game in Sarnia", "You'll have to go to that wedding by yourself because we have a home game that weekend", or "No boss I can't work that extra shift to help you meet that deadline because I have training that night" without throwing a bus trip from one end of the Windsor - Quebec corridor to the other into the mix.

[Juby]

Okay, come on.

I recall having many infuriating arguments with BBTB about the possibility of a national league, and yes, I remember him saying it was impossible (I still disagree). I also remember him having an axe to grind with the CSL ownership. All of that is true. I do not recall a single statement claiming that all-Canadian D3 leagues were doomed to fail. Having a preference of PDL over CSL in particular does not an anti-Canadian D3 argument make.

Further, the Challenge Cup makes all of it moot. Regardless of arguments about national cup feasability, there already is one.

To be fair, he has said a tonne of doom and gloom, I've seen this before rah rah rah for what was our only real d-3 league. He also did argue that their was no point in paying players by saying 'just cause you pay a guy 5 000 doesn't make him worth it' (usually in our case it can be a serious bargain) and actively scoffed at the merits or point of semi pro clubs. He didn't change these until he had his 'idea' moment where he used a lot of ideas he'd been ignoring but irrationally being excessively loyal to even the amateur american leagues. Also that's exactly my point about a cup, he has this idea, that everyone already does (even here) and he tries to angle it as a replacement for something that he opposes when it says little to nothing about that.

Even here, you can see the foolishness plain as day, he talks about ignoring me but he'll often respond to things that only I said in the entire thread, like how I off handedly mentioned the moratorium might have worked through **** luck alone a week or so ago, that's the only mention, but he responds 'to the people who are talking about this involving the moratorium', why bother with the charade? but he'll continue stubbornly making a fool of himself so he can pretend he's being consistent rather then just fess up and recant and move on like normal people.

What's most aggrevating is that he just has to try to take credit for everything, he's a big pdl guy, if that worked out, I can see him bragging, but just a couple years ago he was, like I said, argueing against and at the futility of such small payments (how many times did he have to be told 5 000 is better than 0), and now he's acting like his hopes have finally come true. I mean be excited if you've changed your mind but be enough of a person to not pretend like this is what you've been saying for years, especially when it was such a hissy fit (how many times did he cart out how 'pitiful' 5000 was and now is all excited to see more part time contracts?)to get it to this point, you don't insult people around you for pride alone.

edit: sorry, shutting up now, I'll just say something on topic: should be near around 30 semi pro clubs for in Ontario and Quebec next year, the best part of this is I'm almost positive there's going to be plenty of 'discovery' players in the next few years all over the place, I'm still convinced theirs a tonne of talent in the GTA alone to be 'found' (I only use easy quotes because in the case of youth players they aren't exactly 'discovered')

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

OK let's try to get this thread back on track again. As explained I think there is a role for both open age semi-pro and elite student athlete oriented leagues and think both could work well in a Canadian context if organized in an intelligent manner. The subject of this thread is the former in the context of Ontario and Quebec. There have been four contenders when it comes to having a semi-pro league operating in the Windsor-Quebec corridor in 2012. Here's how things appear to me to stand with each:

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CSL - originally an OSA sanctioned league but for the past couple of seasons has been CSA sanctioned.

Strengths - having been the only active league up to now it should be in the poll position.

Weaknesses - has traditionally been based on franchises purchased for low six figure amounts (?), which worked alright when there were relatively few would be applicants, but is problematic when lots of teams want to get in and have the option of forming rival leagues instead. The leverage this provided seems to have resulted in playing memberships being introduced with no expansion fee involved and this appears to have led to an internal split between "equity owners" and more recent entries, which led to Milltown FC and Hamilton Croatia's departure after an attempt to form a breakaway league for 2011 had failed to make its way through the OSA's bureacracy in time.

Solidly on board for 2012 - I think the "equity owners" from back in 1998 would be London City, York Region Shooters, St Catherines Roma, Toronto Croatia and the York Region Shooters. Not sure about status of franchises derived from later expansion like Toronto SC, Serbian White Eagles and Brampton City United but Serbian White Eagles are not likely to be aligned with Milltown FC due to stuff that happened in the 2009 season with their reserve side. Of the most recent entries after playing memberships were introduced, Brantford Galaxy, Windsor Stars, TFC Academy, Montreal Impact Academy, Capital City FC and Mississauga Eagles, there appear to be serious differences between Hamilton Croatia and the Brantford Galaxy and the Windsor team appeared to enter the picture after the split so strong reasons to believe that 8 out of 14 from this season would be on board for 2012 with a new team in Kingston apparently in the works based on Prospect FC from the CSL second division to bring solidly on board 2012 numbers up to a minimum of 9.

Not clear for 2012 - If the above is accurate the 2011 CSL first division teams that are most likely to do something else in 2012 would be Toronto SC, Brampton City United, TFC Academy, Mississauga Eagles, Capital City FC and Montreal Impact Academy, along with Niagara United and Kitchener Waterloo United FC from the CSL's second division.

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OSL semi-pro - an attempt by the OSL, the OSA's top provincial amatuer league (although only two of the five regions are involved) to from an elite division of eight teams with pro/rel to the rest of the senior league structure.

Strenghs - would have been in line with FIFA's recommendations where league structures are concerned.

Weaknesses - got turned down by the OSA for sanctioning so what appears to be happening instead is a move from a 14 team setup with east and west conferences to a ten team elite division, which will no doubt be semi-pro in practice in many cases if not officially in league status terms.

Solidly on board for 2012 - given the amateur status and pro/rel structure of the OSL there is zero doubt that there will be ten teams in the OSL top flight division in 2012.

Not clear for 2012 - If elite OSL teams were keen to be openly semi-pro in 2012 will some of them want to move to another league setup now that the OSL has failed to achieve that?

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New Quebec semi-pro - The QSF has long wanted a provincial semi-pro league and recently announced that one would be launched in 2012.

Strengths - solid backing of QSF has led to this league with rumours that CSL and PDL expansion bids have been deliberately blocked to try to ensure the numbers were there to get this league off the ground.

Weaknesses - although the aim appears to be to have a 12 teams eventually it is not clear that the numbers are there for a viable and stable league and some leading clubs with semi-pro aspirations appear to want to play elsewhere.

Solidly on board for 2012 - Gatineau, Lakeshore, Brossard, L'Assomption, Blainville

Not clear for 2012 - Trois Rivieres, Montreal Impact Academy and Beauport said to be possibles for 2012 with other clubs potentially interested in the years ahead. Not clear whether Montreal Impact Academy and Beauport prefer having a Quebec league to being in the CSL. Also not clear to what extent the QSF can influence their decision.

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New Ontario league - this initiative is the result of Milltown FC and Hamilton Croatia's breakaway from the CSL.

Strengths - Has received the backing of the OSA in sanctioning terms. Appear to want to use FIFA's recommended pro/rel approach rather than a franchise model although this is nothing like as clear cut as it would have been with the OSL's elite 8 proposal.

Weaknesses - Not clear that the numbers are there for a viable and stable league and gaining media recognition could be tough initially if TFC Academy are not involved.

Solidly on board for 2012 - Clearly Milltown FC, Hamilton Croatia will be on board and almost certainly an announced 2011 CSL expansion team called the Pickering Power that eventually decided to sit out the 2011 season given backing of Durham Region District Association for the new league's sanctioning bid. So the identity of only 3 out of 8 teams needed to be assured of a green light from the OSA for the 2012 season in November are obvious at this point.

Not clear for 2012 - back in February literature for possible new teams stated there were six teams on board in Hamilton, Peel-Halton, Toronto, Durham Region, Ottawa and Montreal with three more written expressions of interest from the GTA and southwestern Ontario. Presumably the Toronto team is still on board but not clear whether Ottawa and Montreal teams are existing CSL sides or possibly new entries in semi-pro terms that are now involved with the new Quebec League at this point. Also not clear how many (if any) CSL and/or OSL teams will decide to defect to this new league and how many top youth clubs are likely to be interested in joining.

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Can anyone see any flaws with any of that? Does anyone have any insights on what might happen?