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New D3 league in Ontario/Quebec!


Redcoatsforever

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Sanctioning news will have to wait, but we have our first news of breakaway CSL clubs:

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?1164-Exodus-from-CSL

Canadian Soccer News has learned that two prominent teams are leaving the Canadian Soccer League effective immediately over failure to come to terms with the league.

Hamilton Croatia informed the league of their intention today and CSN is aware of another club who has done the same. The second team requested time to inform its players before being named.

The pair are a part of a breakaway group who have applied to the OSA for sanctioning as a Division 3 league that would span across Ontario and Quebec.

AAAAAND of course, this is a link to the article BringBackTheBlizzard posted in the other thread.

So, what does everyone think?

Are we seeing an NASL/USL style split at the Canadian D3 level?

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Guest GoGreen

This is not good news for the Canadian Soccer in my opinion if other teams are to follow in the future.

Would really like specific details on the "failure to come to terms" issues

Exactly why the CSL is regarded the way it is... I understand the equity ownership situation but I still believe for Canadian soccer to move forward in terms of a nationwide professional league this needs to be solved or the CSA needs to start from scratch in terms of providing a D3 Canadian league.

Any word on who the 2nd team is?

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This is not good news for the Canadian Soccer in my opinion if other teams are to follow in the future.

Would really like specific details on the "failure to come to terms" issues

Exactly why the CSL is regarded the way it is... I understand the equity ownership situation but I still believe for Canadian soccer to move forward in terms of a nationwide professional league this needs to be solved or the CSA needs to start from scratch in terms of providing a D3 Canadian league.

Any word on who the 2nd team is?

I have no real sources on this, it is entirely speculation, I get the feeling though that it's Milltown FC, as Milton was listed in the original presentation package and there aren't exactly a plethora of semi-pro clubs in the Halton Hills region.

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Milltown is officially out of the CSL but no announcement on another league as of yet.

that's sad, i wonder what the details were that kept it from working out? Honestly if it was the csl's own choice then the should play in the best league they can.

Being purely speculative here but part of me thinks that they have a back up plan long term, if they did decently, and were competing a bit with the csl (ie doing well enough to worry them), they might get themselves enough leverage to get into the equity group without ever having to pay the proper expansion fee.

I say this all kinda sucks because rebranding can be a waste of time by throwing away the bit of work you've already done, however, being a bit of an optimist i can't help but hope the end result is about 3 small divisions worth of teams (properly into quebec) all getting together again.

I can't stress enough though that rebranding is a bit detrimental, the csl is mildly known in the local soccer community as a decent regional league, it's the most well known cause it's generally the best regional league in canada. It has a few fans and doesn't really have much to be ashamed of, so to throw away what little brand recognition they have at this point would just be a negative (I don't think their in need of a fresh start, their...improving...).

For this new league though, it's even harder because the csl won't be gone and their new brand will be thrust out there to be seen or ignored. If they were clearly a head and shoulders above the csl it would make sense, but if their going to be playing catch up to start they'll probably have to find the perfect areas to avoid out and out having to compete with the csl at first as they won't really have a league history. I'm just hoping this is just the silly excuse needed to get even more teams into ontario and quebec setting the stage for *gasp* a pyramid...

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Perhaps worth noting that the CSL "equity owners" got rid of the commissioner (he's not involved with the proposed new league) who was making so much noise about coast to coast expansion. A lot of people on here seem to feel some sort of an emotional need to back the CSL because of its name but having had extensive dealings with the people who run one of the key charter franchises over the years it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that VPjr and L.T,'s involvement with people like that would last no more than a single season. The regional semi-pro D3 level needs a new beginning if anything good is ever going to happen.

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Guest GoGreen
Perhaps worth noting that the CSL "equity owners" got rid of the commissioner (he's not involved with the proposed new league) who was making so much noise about coast to coast expansion. A lot of people on here seem to feel some sort of an emotional need to back the CSL because of its name but having had extensive dealings with the people who run one of the key charter franchises over the years it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that VPjr and L.T,'s involvement with people like that would last no more than a single season. The regional semi-pro D3 level needs a new beginning if anything good is ever going to happen.

I agree. I believe a lot of that emotional attachment to the CSL stems from the long history they have, if even as only a regional league. It seems easier to build/back the idea of a "national league" from something that already exists then to start from scratch.

The exodus of these 2 organizations who seemed to do pretty well last season, doesnt make this league any more credible. Now with the changes at the CSA apparently, in my opinion it is the as great a time as ever for the CSA to step in and create a "national" D3 league(totally indepedent of the CSL) or sadly, organizations like Milltown and Hamilton Croatia could look elsewhere (USL / NASL) and who would blame them?

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The exodus of these 2 organizations who seemed to do pretty well last season, doesnt make this league any more credible. Now with the changes at the CSA apparently, in my opinion it is the as great a time as ever for the CSA to step in and create a "national" D3 league(totally indepedent of the CSL) or sadly, organizations like Milltown and Hamilton Croatia could look elsewhere (USL / NASL) and who would blame them?

Agreed. I'd say this is more important and doable for the CSA to help build a D3 framework rather than trying to coble together some Canadian D2 entity. The D3 level is going to be a very important part of our development pyramid. It doesn't require such a large investment so more owners/amateur clubs will be willing to take the plunge. And since it is regionally based, one region can be set up without having to create the whole network at once.

I never understood why the proposed Western expansion franchises needed the CSL to set themselves up as a regional pro league. The proposed Ontario-Quebec league, if it succeeds, would become the model for other regional circuits.

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I never understood why the proposed Western expansion franchises needed the CSL to set themselves up as a regional pro league. The proposed Ontario-Quebec league, if it succeeds, would become the model for other regional circuits.

Exactly, it doesn't have to be any particular league system so long as it's a model that works from coast to coast at the same level of the pyramid. We could even have several leagues in different regions with no relations to one another, as long as the CSA sanctions them, and the CSA could even run a separate championship playoff for the league winners each season.

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I agree with most of what has been said above. I could care less about the name of the league ... call it the Bimbo Soccer League for all I care (only if Bimbo provides the sponsorship money). Right now, I'm tired of always using the US league to "develop" soccer in Canada.

Get a standard Senior A league system in place, provincially.

Add a semi-pro level above it, regionally, and relegate non-performing teams back to Senior A.

If an owner wants to play ... the team has to start at the Senior A level to prove they are serious.

Is this another one step forward and 2 steps back?

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I agree with most of what has been said above. I could care less about the name of the league ... call it the Bimbo Soccer League for all I care (only if Bimbo provides the sponsorship money). Right now, I'm tired of always using the US league to "develop" soccer in Canada.

Get a standard Senior A league system in place, provincially.

Add a semi-pro level above it, regionally, and relegate non-performing teams back to Senior A.

If an owner wants to play ... the team has to start at the Senior A level to prove they are serious.

Is this another one step forward and 2 steps back?

I think it's a step forward. In on season Milltown and Hammer Cro did what the rest of the league's clubs have been working on for over a decade. They have serious soccer people running the clubs, who want a real club system, and are discussing a league with a promotion and relegation system.

The CSL are talking about...getting Locust gameballs, and a few clubs are starting reserve teams...oh, and two of their clubs just left, with the possibility of more to follow.

The CSL equity owners are part of the old guard, status quo group in Canada, they don't want anything to change because it threatens their grip on soccer in this country. It doesn't matter to them that under their leadership, soccer in Canada has been a rather sordid affair, not really worth vying for control of. The new guys want to make Canadian soccer something to be proud of, and I say that based on last seasons results they deserve a shot, at least at the D3 level since we have to wait for real CSA reform now.

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Decided to snoop on Twitter a bit:

RedcoatsForever @LondonCity1973 Any comments on FC Hamilton Croatia and Milltown FC announcing their departure from the CSL?

LondonCity1973 @RedcoatsForever CSL is issuing a press release later today. The league looks amazing for 2011 and we look forward to an incredible year

8 minutes ago via Twitter for BlackBerry® in reply to RedcoatsForever

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Perhaps worth noting that the CSL "equity owners" got rid of the commissioner (he's not involved with the proposed new league) who was making so much noise about coast to coast expansion. A lot of people on here seem to feel some sort of an emotional need to back the CSL because of its name but having had extensive dealings with the people who run one of the key charter franchises over the years it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that VPjr and L.T,'s involvement with people like that would last no more than a single season. The regional semi-pro D3 level needs a new beginning if anything good is ever going to happen.

the only reason people were confused into thinking Di Gironimo is involved is because you completely tactlessly put the new league stuff in the thread about his resignation even though it wasn't really anymore related to the thread (and if you read further back in that, you can see even more classless, off topic, attempts to smear peoples reputations for nothing). And btw, it's actually you whose irrationally and emotionally anti csl, hence all the smearing and paranoia about equity owners (gee whiz, you mean they don't want to give away ownership for nothing? If I didn't know any better I'd swear that made perfect business sense)

Come on, people don't have an 'emotional need' for the csl. They have an real hopes of improving soccer in the country, and the csl is currently the best regional league we have. It's also showing a bit of progress. So to have people take one of the few things we have improving and to recommend tearing it all down and starting over is just irrational. I already said this but rebranding will only work if your a head and shoulders better (then theirs reason for the fuss). What's the point in throwing away the work you've already done and the little brand recognition you have if the play on the pitch is the exact same. It's literally a step back, just providing more acronyms to erode the legitimacy of Canadian soccer.

The only reason you think it needs a new beginning is because you are emotionally against it (I can literally dig up all your irrational, negative and just plain wrong posts from the last year to prove it). The csl literally doesn't have the stature to need to be rebranded because if they did a brand new marketing campaign, most people still don't know what the csl is so it's got no negative connatations. The only people anti-progress enough to be against a dozen or so people actually spending money on soccer in canada, are you, and a few other yahoo's here who have spent the last year trying to make every decision they make look bad (even if it puts you in a completely foolish position).

Seriously, do you have nothing better to do then illogically smear some of the only people willing to invest a decent amount money into 'canadian soccer' (I remind you were at a 'canadian soccer' forum), you'll just pretend your not emotional, everyone else is, and then completely irrationally approach whatever the csl says next.

btw The owners shouldn't give away their power for any less then they value it, anything else is completely foolish. They believe full membership in the equity group is worth, 150 000 - 200 000, if they give it away for less, it's suddenly worth alot less. Asking them to just give up control for almost nothing is asking them to completely devalue what they currently own... And if you practically give away equal ownership, your never going to sell it to anybody (this is just basic business, if they didn't act in the way their being criticized for, you'd all probably be criticizing them for having no business acumen (and in that case, you'd actually be right.)

More proof that the CSL is a complete joke.

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it's a duck.

wow, what an informative post, you really added to the discussion *snickering*

ever read the book animal farm? remember the bleating sheep? sound familar?

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I'm not sure what you think they own? If the CSL dissolves tomorrow, do the teams get any of their "equity"? The only thing that equity represents was a once upon a time dream that this league would generate some serious revenues. It has no value today.

Toronto Croatia drawing 50 fans and York Region Shooters not even being able to afford new uniforms (still had Italia written on last year) isn't worth a thing.

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LondonCity1973 @RedcoatsForever CSL is issuing a press release later today. The league looks amazing for 2011 and we look forward to an incredible year

8 minutes ago via Twitter for BlackBerry® in reply to RedcoatsForever

Sean Gauss was inevitably going to say something like that so no news there really although the press release will obviously be worth a look. The interesting thing to watch is which way the TFC and Impact Academy teams jump because the whole notion of regional D3 being a pathway to the full-time pro level is going to revolve around players being noticed in games played against those teams in the years ahead. Just my imagination or not too many mentions of them on the CSL website lately despite obvious scope to crow about recent U-17 national team callups?

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I'm not sure what you think they own? If the CSL dissolves tomorrow, do the teams get any of their "equity"? The only thing that equity represents was a once upon a time dream that this league would generate some serious revenues. It has no value today.

Toronto Croatia drawing 50 fans and York Region Shooters not even being able to afford new uniforms (still had Italia written on last year) isn't worth a thing.

....so I gotta expain simple business? Their value is ther brand name, better to be CSL with some rep then ??? with no rep, better to be the North York Astros with some history then the North York ????? with no history. They've spent years trying to develop a reputation as a decent league and think their league is worth something. If they give it away, then it's worthless, if their selling it, it's worth what they can get (supply and demand). If you wanted worthless, start from scratch, besides that, your just being rude to expect them to agree a decade of hard work on and off the pitch progress 'has no value today'.

Pointing out the woes of two of the worst supported teams is rather foolish too, why don't I base all my csl figures on the two most successful teams while were being silly.

ohhhh and more pointless complaints from bbtb, I mean, there was already a thread bemoaning the lack of updates to the site during the off season, but since amoung the few updates in the winter, theirs even fewer about two specific teams. This is literally based on nothing (you NOT seeing enough news) but it doesn't stop you from making 'the sky is falling' paranoid comments.

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You've clearly misjudged the value of that brand name. Most CSL teams get little to no fan support and if you don't count family that small number gets cut in half. Throughout the OSL and the province, the CSL has no rep.

I fully understand that you want to recoup the money you've put into this league since it started. Do you understand that these new teams get absolutely nothing by giving you money? Something doesn't have value just because you say it does.

This new league is in fact starting from scratch. As much as it might hurt your pride, they're on the exact same level as the CSL. It's always better to trade away today what will be taken from you tomorrow. Then you'd at least get something back.

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You've clearly misjudged the value of that brand name. Most CSL teams get little to no fan support and if you don't count family that small number gets cut in half. Throughout the OSL and the province, the CSL has no rep.

I fully understand that you want to recoup the money you've put into this league since it started. Do you understand that these new teams get absolutely nothing by giving you money? Something doesn't have value just because you say it does.

This new league is in fact starting from scratch. As much as it might hurt your pride, they're on the exact same level as the CSL. It's always better to trade away today what will be taken from you tomorrow. Then you'd at least get something back.

couple things, support isn't as terrible as it was (thats an exxageration) it's not great but their not 'mostly' fanless, a few teams are in that category, not most.

Yes I do understand they don't get the money themselves, they get more financial security for the league and it raises the value of their contribution and their club if someone has to pay a good amount to get the equal share of power. By just giving away something because they won't see an immidiate pay cheque is ridiculous shortsighted because their completely devalueing their product. And actually, things do have value if you say they do (and you manage to sell them), it's the basis for inflation...Why do you think most stock prices fluctuate so much, because it's based almost entirely on appearances (a stock price for example is just what they last person paid for it, not what it's worth from a labour v material standpoint).

Finally, your last paragraph is arrogant to hide the fact that your wrong. How are they on the same level if the CSL requires $45 000 in player contracts, and they only require $30 000? You think the better players from the CSL are going to take a pay cut to play in a league with no reputation? How can you say it's on the same level as the CSL if you haven't seen a game? I can honeslty say it probably won't be there that first season because their not being competitive salary wise, it's not a guarentee, but it actually makes some factual sense.

edit: and notice your post went from calling it worthless to they've misjudged the value, two very different claims.

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wow, what an informative post, you really added to the discussion *snickering*

ever read the book animal farm? remember the bleating sheep? sound familar?

What? I'm sorry the league you love and endear so much is starting to show what it really is, and that my opinion is proven correct. I know a few people who watched some games (some during the days when it was on Sportsnet) and they said it wasn't much better then the NS league (which I thought the almost the same). If it's not much better than the NS league, chances are it's probably on par with Alberta or BC league (I'm just using logic here).

I agree there should be truly a national league and expansion should eventually come, but to call itself "Canadian", when it's confined to Ontario and basically Montreal? And when it's not near as good of standard as some other leagues that are comparable to it? Sheesh.

Love the irony how you state people do not have some emotional need for the CSL, although you sure as heck act like it.

Anyway, carry on...

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What? I'm sorry the league you love and endear so much is starting to show what it really is, and that my opinion is proven correct. I know a few people who watched some games (some during the days when it was on Sportsnet) and they said it wasn't much better then the NS league (which I thought the almost the same). If it's not much better than the NS league, chances are it's probably on par with Alberta or BC league (I'm just using logic here).

I agree there should be truly a national league and expansion should eventually come, but to call itself "Canadian", when it's confined to Ontario and basically Montreal? And when it's not near as good of standard as some other leagues that are comparable to it? Sheesh.

Love the irony how you state people do not have some emotional need for the CSL, although you sure as heck act like it.

Anyway, carry on...

what it really is? you mean a business? And you haven't watched it? theirs literally dozens of games on this site!? it would take a few hours to watch a couple games and actually inform yourself instead of pretending dated second hand information is fact. Why don't I go around talking about the Indonesian league while were regurgatating what we've heard.

Your second paragraph is just silly semantics (why don't we get into a soccer football arguement while were just argueing to argue).

Me being upset is a result from a bunch of ignoramus' saying the most over the top, irrational, sky is falling crap in everything related to the csl. I get upset to see people try to smear the little infrastructure we have because their somehow anti csl on a canadian soccer website? I mean if someone just tore into the PCSL for no reason, just tried to make it sound like the worst league for no reason and acted like the owners were sinister for not being business dimwits, I would be offended too, the development of canadian soccer is in a bad enough position without people just trying to tear it down for no better reason then they like to be over dramatic and are stuck in a silly stance.

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Sorry Juby, but you don't understand value. Dragging around that can of snake oil isn't working for you.

If it makes you feel better, the CSL is worthless. I was just trying to be nice by saying you misjudged the value.

You should get together with the rest of the teams and pool your home games like you did with York Region. Buy a ticket to the Astros and get in to a York Region, Toronto Croatia, Serbian White Eagles, Portugal FC game. You might draw a couple of new fans.

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