TFC struggles on TV

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

.....It's all that most serious fans have been using forever in this country and it has diddly squad to do with Eurocentrism.

And let's not forget that pro soccer has an almost continuous 50 years history in Canada now thanks primarily to the efforts of the post-WWII immigration wave in the larger cities from coast to coast. For some people soccer is something new and recent that they have only latched onto since the youth soccer registration boom in the aftermath of the 1994 World Cup finals south of the border but the sport had to be built up from almost nothing long before that based on the hard work and dedication of first and second generation immigrants who knew and loved the game. The biggest problem I have with Nigel Reed is that I'd prefer to see people like Alf de Blasis and even Vic Rauter, who were part of that long process getting more of the limelight now that the good times have finally arrived. I find it truly sad the way some people seem to take Nigel Reed a lot more seriously than Bob Iarusci for example despite the fact it is the latter who has played the game professionally.

[argh1]

I'm on this side of the fence, too. Premiership broadcasts, too, are wildly popular throughout Canada and the rest of the world. The British vocabulary for the game is the standard, as it should be. Look, there was a time what North American leagues/clubs thought that "we" would never "get" the idea of European style supporting at clubs, with the fan-lead singing and all the good that comes from the supporters group. Look how dead wrong they have been despite all their efforts to dumb down and feed us a North Americanized version of what it means to follow the beautiful game. Look at TFC. Look at Seattle. Look at which direction Vancouver has been heading, this is the future of the game IMHO. I don't care if they are British or not, but get proper commentators who speak "proper football" language and are above all knowledgeable.

I agree with those who suggest that we should really be talking more about utilising what we have been successful with in broadcasting North American sports, especially the wide variety of camera angles and stat-driven, knowledgeable (and yet digestible) commentary. Inform the general public. Bring them in slowly but give them the authentic product, vocabulary and all. It's all that most serious fans have been using forever in this country and it has diddly squad to do with Eurocentrism.

So Brit talk is the standard for soccer and everybody who watches Canadian domestic games be damned? But that's not a Euro-snob approach just the game?

[Richard]

You know, if the excuse for not watching MLS/USSF D2 soccer on TV in Canada is as trivial as the accent of the commentator and/or the soccer specific terminology - terminology that is much the same in every soccer playing nation in the world - then the problem is far more likely the product itself or dare I say it, general anti-British prejudice on the part of the viewer. The biggest soccer competition on the airwaves is soccer from Europe and/or South America. With the former the odds are for the Canadian feed the commentator will be British anyway - so much for the complaint! Time for these folks to open up their minds and realise we live in a global village now.

[argh1]

You know, if the excuse for not watching MLS/USSF D2 soccer on TV in Canada is as trivial as the accent of the commentator and/or the soccer specific terminology - terminology that is much the same in every soccer playing nation in the world - then the problem is far more likely the product itself or dare I say it, general anti-British prejudice on the part of the viewer. The biggest soccer competition on the airwaves is soccer from Europe and/or South America. With the former the odds are for the Canadian feed the commentator will be British anyway - so much for the complaint! Time for these folks to open up their minds and realise we live in a global village now.

I dunno............

I've watched Caribbean Cricket and they used Caribbean commentators, I've actually watched Brit hockey and they used Brit commentators.

Nothing against Nigel really, but don't you think Canadian soccer with the introduction of TFC, Impact, Whitecaps and Edmonton has outgrown our past colonial needs and can have people who use our dialect cover games.

Maybe the elite that go to the Sexy Beagle and Foxy Lady Pub don't realize that soccer is now a main-stream game in Canada and want to perpetuate the ideal that Footie has to remain foreign or exotic. So those dasturdly North Americans don't make the game common for the common folk.

[Richard]

^ I have yet to hear anybody with a Canadian accent do a better overall job with soccer than Nigel Reed. I'll also wager the Caribbean cricket commentators use 'standard' international cricket terminology despite the island accent. I can't comment on British ice hockey coverage - talk about a minor sport!

[argh1]

^ I have yet to hear anybody with a Canadian accent do a better overall job with soccer than Nigel Reed. I'll also wager the Caribbean cricket commentators use 'standard' international cricket terminology despite the island accent. I can't comment on British ice hockey coverage - talk about a minor sport!

So you go to the Sexy Beagle and Foxy Lady Pub?

Only Euro-Snobs call it Ice Hockey, we Canadians call it Hockey.

There's more pro Hockey teams in the UK by the way than there is Pro Soccer teams in Canada

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

You should maybe ponder why Martin Tyler of Sky Sports was hired by ESPN to do play by play during the World Cup:

http://www.epltalk.com/espn-hires-martin-tyler-as-world-cup-2010-commentator/12153

http://awfulannouncing.blogspot.com/2009/10/espn-hires-british-announcer-tyler-for.html

and ESPN had three other British play-by-play announcers as well:

http://www.boston.com/sports/soccer/articles/2010/03/04/espn_goes_british_for_world_cup/

Rightly or wrongly there are a lot of people who watch soccer in North America who prefer to listen to people like Nigel Reed, Martin Tyler and Derek Rae rather than somebody like Gerry Dobson or Max Bretos.

Beyond that I think it's premature to say that soccer is now a "mainstream" sport in Canada. That may be the case in participation terms at the youth level nowadays but that doesn't necessarily translate into spectator interest at the pro level. Not sure how many TFC games you will have been at but in Toronto at least watching pro soccer is still primarily a first and second generation immigrant thing in my experience attracting different demographics than a Maple Leafs or Blue Jays game. One of the key things that TFC got right in marketing terms was not trying to North Americanize everything but instead going after the people who already know and love the game by giving them something similar to a pro soccer game in Europe. In some ways such as the lack of a mascot and cheerleaders they are more conservative and traditional on that than top clubs in the UK nowadays.

[argh1]

You should maybe ponder why Martin Tyler of Sky Sports was hired by ESPN to do play by play during the World Cup:

http://www.epltalk.com/espn-hires-martin-tyler-as-world-cup-2010-commentator/12153

http://awfulannouncing.blogspot.com/2009/10/espn-hires-british-announcer-tyler-for.html

and ESPN had three other British play-by-play announcers as well:

http://www.boston.com/sports/soccer/articles/2010/03/04/espn_goes_british_for_world_cup/

Rightly or wrongly there are a lot of people who watch soccer in North America who prefer to listen to people like Nigel Reed, Martin Tyler and Derek Rae rather than somebody like Gerry Dobson or Max Bretos.

Beyond that I think it's premature to say that soccer is now a "mainstream" sport in Canada. That may be the case in participation terms at the youth level nowadays but that doesn't necessarily translate into spectator interest at the pro level. Not sure how many TFC games you will have been at but in Toronto at least watching pro soccer is still primarily a first and second generation immigrant thing in my experience attracting different demographics than a Maple Leafs or Blue Jays game. One of the key things that TFC got right in marketing terms was not trying to North Americanize everything but instead going after the people who already know and love the game by giving them something similar to a pro soccer game in Europe. In some ways such as the lack of a mascot and cheerleaders they are more conservative and traditional on that than top clubs in the UK nowadays.

So you go to the PUB too? Afraid that the common folk might like the game?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

If that's all you can come up with as a reply after I took the time to make an effort to try to initiate a sensible discussion of the issues on this then it is clearly time to add you to my ignore list.

[argh1]

If that's all you can come up with as a reply after I took the time to make an effort to try to initiate a sensible discussion of the issues on this then I'm afraid it is time to add you to my ignore list.

Hurt your Euro sensibilities?

You don't think it's time to make soccer a Canadian game?

That it should remain a game for the elitest that hate North American culture.

EDIT:

Wouldn't you love to see this for Canadian soccer.

http://www.cfl.ca/article/rivalries-renewed-labour-day-weekend

Anyway, local Jr Hockey has started at both the Major Jr and Jr A levels so time for this small town hick to leave you alone and enjoy games that don't need overseas interpretation LOL joke humour..............

[Richard]

Making soccer a Canadian game does not mean inventing a whole new set of terminology for the commentators. We've been there, tried that sort of thing and it failed miserably - remember the A-League shootouts which came from ice hockey. Soccer is the only truly international team game and the terminology comes with it, get used to it.

[foreverthursday]

Making soccer a Canadian game does not mean inventing a whole new set of terminology for the commentators. We've been there, tried that sort of thing and it failed miserably - remember the A-League shootouts which came from ice hockey. Soccer is the only truly international team game and the terminology comes with it, get used to it.

Which is fine, but as long as people are willing not to be pretentious about it. There are a lot of people who will need explenations, and they will not want it doused in snobbery first.

[Vancouversoccerman]

The key to big ratings for TFC (and MLS in the future) isn't as complicated as it seems. It begins with success in the stands and success on the field.

Baseball was a sub-average TV draw in Canada until the Montreal Expos became a contender after 1976. When the Blue Jays became the hottest ticket in Toronto in the mid-80s, the TV ratings exploded across the country. I think it might work out for soccer here, even if it's on a little more modest scale.

The good news is we know that people in Canada will watch top-level soccer in big numbers. If our teams in Toronto, Vancouver & Montreal foster the rivalries and start winning titles, it will build. It just needs time, and more than just Toronto carrying the freight. If the CBC gives up on it, it will be their loss in the long run, because the demographics of soccer is where they need to be.

[Macksam]

I'm on this side of the fence, too. Premiership broadcasts, too, are wildly popular throughout Canada and the rest of the world. The British vocabulary for the game is the standard, as it should be. Look, there was a time what North American leagues/clubs thought that "we" would never "get" the idea of European style supporting at clubs, with the fan-lead singing and all the good that comes from the supporters group. Look how dead wrong they have been despite all their efforts to dumb down and feed us a North Americanized version of what it means to follow the beautiful game. Look at TFC. Look at Seattle. Look at which direction Vancouver has been heading, this is the future of the game IMHO. I don't care if they are British or not, but get proper commentators who speak "proper football" language and are above all knowledgeable.

I agree with those who suggest that we should really be talking more about utilising what we have been successful with in broadcasting North American sports, especially the wide variety of camera angles and stat-driven, knowledgeable (and yet digestible) commentary. Inform the general public. Bring them in slowly but give them the authentic product, vocabulary and all. It's all that most serious fans have been using forever in this country and it has diddly squad to do with Eurocentrism.

I agree with this guy a little bit after the 3:00 minute mark with regards to British commentators.

Making soccer a Canadian game does not mean inventing a whole new set of terminology for the commentators. We've been there, tried that sort of thing and it failed miserably - remember the A-League shootouts which came from ice hockey. Soccer is the only truly international team game and the terminology comes with it, get used to it.

No one is saying invent a whole new set of terms. All we're saying is use substitutes that work perfectly fine as they virtually mean the same thing. Using cover instead of mark, field instead of pitch, shot instead of effort and other small things like that.

[Richard]

"No one is saying invent a whole new set of terms. All we're saying is use substitutes..."

That is creating new terminology, and it will be seen as dumbing it down for ignorant north Americans. Won't work, you'll just turn more people off. Besides, I'll wager it is only a small minority who perceive the language used as peculiarly British, the vast majority of folks will understand that just like cricket, the game originated in England so there is a lot of 'English' in the words associated with it. I can't believe this anti-British xenophobia!

[Richard]

Which is fine, but as long as people are willing not to be pretentious about it. There are a lot of people who will need explenations, and they will not want it doused in snobbery first.

If using internationally accepted English language sport-specific terminology is perceived as pretentious then so be it. I think dumbing it down for north Americans is infinitely more insulting and pretentious.

[foreverthursday]

If using internationally accepted English language sport-specific terminology is perceived as pretentious then so be it. I think dumbing it down for north Americans is infinitely more insulting and pretentious.

I wasn't talking about the commentary. I was talking about fans not being prententious when at a sports bar, and someone asks what something meant.

Example: Could someone explain to me what a "cap" is?

No seriously, if someone could explain that for me. I don't actually know, and it was in the Edmonton Journal article about the Canada vs Peru match.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sports/soccer/Peru+blanks+Canada+friendly/3483829/story.html

[Spungi]

I wasn't talking about the commentary. I was talking about fans not being prententious when at a sports bar, and someone asks what something meant.

Example: Could someone explain to me what a "cap" is?

No seriously, if someone could explain that for me. I don't actually know, and it was in the Edmonton Journal article about the Canada vs Peru match.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sports/soccer/Peru+blanks+Canada+friendly/3483829/story.html

A quick search of wikipedia:

A cap is an appearance for a select team, such as a school, county or international team in sports. The term dates from the practice in the United Kingdom of awarding a cap (meaning an item of headgear) to every player in an international match of association football. In the early days of football the concept of each team wearing a set of matching shirts had not been universally adopted, with the result that a team's players would often take the field in a variety of different coloured shirts, and each side would distinguish itself from the other by wearing a specific sort of cap or other headgear.

An early illustration of the first international football match between England and Scotland in 1872 shows the Scottish players wearing cowls and the English wearing a variety of school caps. The practice was first approved on 10 May 1886 for association football, after a proposal made by N. Lane Jackson, founder of the Corinthians:

That all players taking part for England in future international matches be presented with a white silk cap with red rose embroidered on the front. These to be termed International Caps.

The act of awarding a cap is now international and is applied to other sports.

Actual caps are not always given anymore (caps for friendly matches still exist, and each player gets one cap per international competition), but the term "cap" for an international or other appearance has been retained. Thus, a cap is awarded for each game played and so a player who has played x games, for the team, is said to have been capped x times or have won x caps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap_(sport)

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

In the early days of the sport in the UK the four football associations used to provide players who played in national team games with a cap (not sure whether they still do). Up to WWII it was still very much the norm for men to wear hats in that part of the world. The number of caps a player has, therefore, refers to the number of times he has played for his national team. On the pretentious thing maybe worth bearing in mind the type of reaction a recent immigrant might get in a sports bar for asking what icing means or something like that. Some people are always going to be obnoxious about stuff like that.

[foreverthursday]

In the early days of the sport in the UK the four football associations used to provide players who played in national team games with a cap (not sure whether they still do). Up to WWII it was still very much the norm for men to wear hats in that part of the world. The number of caps a player has, therefore, refers to the number of times he has played for his national team. On the pretentious thing maybe worth bearing in mind the type of reaction a recent immigrant might get in a sports bar for asking what icing means or something like that. Some people are always going to be obnoxious about stuff like that.

I was going to say that my experience in living in Edmonton has been great for hockey. We have first generation Canadians at work who are huge hockey fans now because people are really willing to make hockey fun for those new to it. Just youtube Canada winning gold at Vancouver and it will show you videos of people in the streets. There are people from a variety of nationalities and religions in those videos, and it is fantastic. I think someone's enthusiasm for whatever they are excited about is highly contagious.

There were a few of us at a pub for the Canada vs Peru match and the waitress thought it was great that we were supporting Canada in soccer, and I was able to talk to her about Edmonton having a pro team, and she agreed to check out some games next year. In that moment I became an ambassador for soccer and I still have a lot to learn about it.

[argh1]

What is an "ignorant North American"? Besides those that CBC has to get to watch the games. Can't grow the viewership without them can you?

Does CBC have anything for soccer like HNIC does with games broadcast in Punjabi?

[Gordon]

Richard, Static cultures are cultures in decline. There are certain terminology that is stupid to use in north america: Pitch is one IMO, football is another (as the owner of bcsoccerweb I m sure you understand), into touch is a third. I see no purpose in hanging onto them. On the other hand, since we do not have equivalents for things like nutmeg, why invent them? Interesting use of "dumbing down" as a description of using a common equivalent. If we ever form a language commission in English Canada, I will happily submit your name as a nominee.

[Macksam]

"No one is saying invent a whole new set of terms. All we're saying is use substitutes..."

That is creating new terminology, and it will be seen as dumbing it down for ignorant north Americans. Won't work, you'll just turn more people off. Besides, I'll wager it is only a small minority who perceive the language used as peculiarly British, the vast majority of folks will understand that just like cricket, the game originated in England so there is a lot of 'English' in the words associated with it. I can't believe this anti-British xenophobia!

People already use those terms so no, it's not creating new terminology.

If using North American terms will result in people getting turned off, then they would be the ignorant ones. Besides, it wouldn't turn off the true fans of the game.

Richard, Static cultures are cultures in decline. There are certain terminology that is stupid to use in north america: Pitch is one IMO, football is another (as the owner of bcsoccerweb I m sure you understand), into touch is a third. I see no purpose in hanging onto them. On the other hand, since we do not have equivalents for things like nutmeg, why invent them? Interesting use of "dumbing down" as a description of using a common equivalent. If we ever form a language commission in English Canada, I will happily submit your name as a nominee.

QFT

[argh1]

Even nutmeg, I bet if a commentator said five-hole 99% of Canadians would understand.

Five-hole has prety much become synonymous with between the legs.

Stole this from the Canada/Peru thread......Joe McCarthy I think.

Corner Gas on Soccer.....er.....Football.

about 2:45 in

and I don't speak English

[Richard]

"If we ever form a language commission in English Canada, I will happily submit your name as a nominee."

I would welcome the opportunity but you for one might not like the result.