Expansion in CSL is ever coming?

[Juby]

Vic, the KPMG report for the CSA, although done as you assert by 'a midlevel guy who had no clue about soccer', reached the same conclusions as would have been reached had you done it yourself I am sure, based on the same remit. How would a deeper knowledge of soccer have affected the facts? You are comparing apples with oranges when referring to the Crawford report, of all people you should know that.

And Juby, you're welcome to your opinion, I happen not to agree with you. A league such as you propose, if sufficient owners could be found and persuaded to ante up the millions required, would be gone in under five years. Try building a rational business plan and see how far you get.

so you didn't read anything? I proved on 2000 fans it could break even, so the only way it's going to gut a tonne of money is if we can't get any fans(maybe)( and millions? so your envisioning this better league has no fans and no sponsors and higher wage budgets then I proposed?), I built a very rational business plan, either you didn't read it, can't read it, or are stuborn to a hilarious degree. seriously, first you just posted the first sentence, I came back a second later to see your a total douche bag.

[Vic]

Richard thanks for the calm and rational conversation... it goes a long way. I do know I'm comparing apples with oranges. I did it to illustrate an effort that should be taken seriously and one that shouldn't, nothing more.

We have a national football league in it's seventh decade, three fully professional soccer teams, numerous semi-pro, and great amateur soccer in places with neither. Soccer is the fastest growing sport in North America and has been for decades. Five years ago no one would have said we would ever have three teams with budgets in the millions, let alone a player getting three. Times change, and with them the market and it's opportunities.

Am I a nationalistic dreamer? Definitely. But I also have more than enough of a logical and financial background and it hasn't seen anything to send the dreamer into the basement. I see nothing but a great country and fans and a new world of opportunity. Does it take CSA and government support? Definitely. That's what got most countries off the ground (and if we can give each of the MLS teams tens of millions of dollars of public funds for venues to play 8 Americans against Americans in surely there is money for our own efforts). I also see it all as a simple evolution of the game and a fait accompli with the only unknown being the timing. I have no idea when that is but I hope I get to see it in my lifetime.

If we can put a man on the moon I think we can figure out a national league infrastructure or at the very least network connectivity. I see countries all over the world doing it *for their women*. IMHO all it takes is fertile ground and great leadership, and if the ground is still not there yet, it certainly is close.

[Richard]

OK Vic, of course times change, I hope you see the dream in your lifetime, I doubt I will in mine, that's all :-)

I don't think you 'proved' anything either Vic, you satisfied yourself and maybe a few others that it might work. The only proof is when it is put into effect and succeeds over the long term, that's the real challenge. I think it is very telling that when owners show interest in investing in an 'elite' level soccer club business in Canada they don't consider doing it in conjunction with creating a brand new domestic league to compete alongside NASL/USL-1/MLS. As you suggest, it won't happen without a mammoth attitude change at the CSA and at the highest government levels, and their joint leadership. Do you see any signs of that happening any time soon?

And I apologise to Juby for coming across as a douchebag but I doubt he'd know a real business plan if it hit him in the face.

[Juby]

And I apologise to Juby for coming across as a douchebag but I doubt he'd know a real business plan if it hit him in the face.

instead of trying to discredit me by being a douche bag and looking for laughs, try pointing out a failing in my business model, that would of course require you actually read it. Give me some numbers that make mine look ridiculous instead of degenerating to, trust me, it's gonna fail.

the big deal of all this too me is to any rational person reading, I've made a decent arguement, you don't have to agree with me but richard and bbtb are acting like I'm completely insane? honestly, I just really expect that almost anybody reading this would read the plan and say 'maybe', they may still disagree but your acting like I'm recommending a lunar league cause the only way you can seem to come up with an arguement against me is by attacking arguements I haven't made, or by misreading (or not reading) the points your supposed to be rebutting

edit: all this lingering douche baggery is from one simple thing, you tried to call me on the numbers, I called your bluff with a pretty reasonable set of numbers, so now that you can't make a legitimate rebutt you degenerate to purely attacking me. Have you ever heard of logic? sure I've insulted you guys but I waited until after I had explained why you weren't using your brain, not pretty much: ohhh yeah, well your stupid.

unfunny people like you are a blight on Canada (I'm not serious here, I just thought that was funny)

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

We should maybe try to move this back towards the core subject matter of the thread and away from the realm of fantasy? The Greater Golden Horseshoe where the CSL is predominantly based contains about 25% of Canada's population and an even greater proportion of first and second generation immigrants who still play a disproportionate role when it comes to soccer. Once the MLS, NASL and PDL franchise rights have been claimed that leaves a lot of potential investors whether in the shape of social clubs or businessmen on the one hand and coaches and players on the other still looking for an elite level league to be involved with so it stands to reason that a very strong (by Canadian standards) elite amateur/semi-pro sort of league will emerge. The part I don't get is why that isn't enough for people in the GTA and why they have this ongoing obsession with being "national" when the pieces are not in place to transform the stated aspiration into concrete reality? The soccer communities in other large cities and in the smaller provinces are perfectly capable of putting together their own league setups that work best in their localities so in the absence of full-time professionalism (which would be required to make regular season games and multi-round playoffs consisting of home and away legs between teams in cities like Toronto and Winnipeg viable and sustainable) there is no obvious need for national coordination between leagues at this level of the sport in a Canadian context.

[Vic]

There are people who get what you're saying but don't agree with your viewpoint for reasons like thinking there are better solutions for our future and believing we're capable of more. To be expected in any open exchange of ideas and opinions. Take the world view and a pill, park the God mode that you know everything and move on.

[Juby]

We should maybe try to move this back towards the core subject matter of the thread and away from the realm of fantasy? The Greater Golden Horseshoe where the CSL is predominantly based contains about 25% of Canada's population and an even greater proportion of first and second generation immigrants who still play a disproportionate role when it comes to soccer. Once the MLS, NASL and PDL franchise rights have been claimed that leaves a lot of potential investors whether in the shape of social clubs or businessmen on the one hand and coaches and players on the other still looking for an elite level league to be involved with so it stands to reason that a very strong (by Canadian standards) elite amateur/semi-pro sort of league will emerge. The part I don't get is why that isn't enough for people in the GTA and why they have this ongoing obsession with being "national" when the pieces are not in place to transform the stated aspiration into concrete reality? The soccer communities in other large cities and in the smaller provinces are perfectly capable of putting together their own league setups that work best in their localities so in the absence of full-time professionalism (which would be required to make regular season games and multi-round playoffs consisting of home and away legs between teams in cities like Toronto and Winnipeg viable and sustainable) there is no obvious need for national coordination between leagues at this level of the sport in a Canadian context.

No, this thread is about expanding the csl west...read the thread title.

and once again you've degenerated into not using your head. if I read this silly, minimal making sense waste a words you call a paragraph correctly, your saying that my idea would already exist in southern ontario if it could, so you just don't understand the whole point of pooling resources, the current level of csl play is not good enough to bring in an average of 2000 fans, so take the best teams here, and take the best teams elsewhere and make a better, higher quality, more sellable league.

You really think that a bunch of unconnected leagues are gonna do the best job (it would help your fixation on australia except you don't realize the difference between what they put under a 10 team top flight in a smaller country and what we do below 3 teams (one day maybe like 6 when the uslnasl teams are made) in a bigger country you realize theirs 50% more people here right? you realize were not australia?)? it's just going to divide everyones resources over alot of almost pointless leagues, don't you have any ambition? Why are you so opposed at working together for improvement?

By now you've pretty much contridicted yourself a few times (go read from the start) because in your pathetic desperation your willing to say anything (no matter how pointless or irrational) to try and discredit me, it's like at this point, you don't know why I'm wrong, you just know I am and will say any idea that pops into your head no matter how stupid or redundant it turns out to be.

Maybe if you can't rationaly and obviously discredit someones ideas you should stop trying to pretend like it's completely moronic (and if it is so moronic, how stupid are you for not being able to cut it right open), but I get the feeling your too stupid to understand the difference between attacking the person and attacking their opinions, at your age it's probably a little late to try and teach you theirs nothing to be won or to be proud of from a smear campaign (it just proves you got nothing better to talk about).

btw richard, if your such a business genius, why can't you point out a specific problem with my business plan? (instead of saying 'travel' hoping I don't know what 'sponsors' are). Where's your business plan (and you can't say whatever the ussf decides for us cause that's not you contributing). If I was such a fiscal moron it should be pretty easy and obvious to discredit my ideas.

I'm gonna try and avoid the forums for a day or two, no doubt bbtb and richard will be emboldened by the idea of going after someone who won't respond (it seems everytime I say I'll walk away bbtb would immidiately post something as dickish (and stupid, don't forget stupid) as he could, I mean what a little loser chicken ****, and he's way older then me, richard too? One more funny thing for everyone else, as pissed off as I've gotten at times, you've all seen me walk away, for the simple fact that the arguement just got out of control, so you know for a fact last word means very little to me, but I started to get the feeling a couple days ago that no matter how little bbtb could say, or how stupid it would be, he would pop in and try and say something just for the sake of saying anything. I'm honestly just pushing him to test him now, but I really wonder if bbtb is obsessed with the last word? and at his age it's one word: pathetic (sure it's pathetic for me too, but I have the advantage of being younger), one thing I've noticed over the years is theirs a surprisingly lot of old people who have reverted to a teenagers maturity (desperate for attention, pointlessly stubborn, obsessed with appearances (like for example a teenager would rather be seen winning an arguement and be wrong then lose a reach the correct conclusion), seriously, I hope to god that when I get old I don't turn into a attention desperate schmuck who thinks he's entitled to his opinions even if things like, ya know, facts and reason contridict them. I hope to god I manage to get to old age with a bit of class and maturity, cause as we can see here, the maturity boat won't come to everybody no matter how old they get (or maybe the boat came in andhas since left)

[brettinhalifax]

I haven't really read all of Juby's posts... I find them a little hard to read.

So I'm not sure if this is a point in favour of Richard or Juby, but the NSC Minnesota Stars operate on an $800,000 budget in USL1/NASL as per this newspaper article and need attendance to be in the low 2000's to pull it off.

Barclay Kruse is the chief communications officer at the NSC, which makes him the voice of the Stars. He said the team operates on revenue from three principal sources -- tickets, soccer camps and sponsors (Schwan's is the biggest). All three have brought in less money than anticipated.

"We need to average somewhere in the 2,200 to 2,500 range," Kruse said. "It's not an impossible place to get."

The problem, he said, is the Stars, who have an $800,000 budget this year, need ticket sales and other revenue to be able to afford mass market advertising; and without extensive advertising, it is hard to draw fans.

NSC Stars are currently in a playoff position (I think) so IMO this shows that you can put together a half decent team that travels the continent if you can get a little over 2,000 paying fans per game. I think that is a point in Juby's favour.

But the fact that all of North America can't come up with more than 12 teams operating at even this barebones level leads me to think that Canada would be hard pressed to come up with 8 teams (which is probably the minimum needed for a div 2.5 league) Which I think is a point in Richards's favour.

Oh well, just thought I'd share the link and add $0.02

[Juby]

your right my points can be tricky to read because I keep getting pissed off at having to talk about points no one was making (how long did it take for it to become apparent, even though I said it from the start I don't want to compete with mls or ussfd2, at one point richard was saying I wanted 6 figure individual contracts and so on), I've been having to spend half my time fighting a smear campaign that is trying to make my opinions seem completely insane, when their fairly reasonable I think.

edit: and besides all the off points, how many points were just thrown out there just for the sake of argueing even though they didn't make logical sense (logic isn't some silly thing from star trek, it's the basis of debate, you can't compare a spade to a club, you can't say a < b therefore c is wrong, I shouldn't have had to argue(and probably should have ignored) half the things they said. Theirs a hilarious post way back where I take the time to explain variables to bbtb like he's 5.

I completely agree that support might not be there yet (I spent a paragraph explaining that despite what richard and bbtb insisted on complaining about, that this was the only real problem, everything in my numbers is even more barebones then minnesota's except the goal of 2000 fans) however I would argue that because this league is at least 5-10 years away (after a good system of regional leagues are in place), interest is on the rise (and slightly higher here then the states), and with tv exposure (even if it's just local) that it's only a matter of time. And if you start your clubs now for a few hundred fans in a regional league your more likely to grow into 2000 fans a game for a national league then just appearing one day when it's all getting together and having to explain the league while your explaining your team.

however, if you don't think doing all this we still won't be able to get 2000 fans at a game, that's fine, I just object to my ideas being treated like marie antionette saying 'let them eat cake'. I mean if you deleted my posts and tried to peice them together from their rebuttles you'd think I was advocating like a million in team wages, right now, with no possible turnover.

edit: I know I said I'd go away but I saw a classy'r attempt at leaving and took it

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

But the fact that all of North America can't come up with more than 12 teams operating at even this barebones level leads me to think that Canada would be hard pressed to come up with 8 teams (which is probably the minimum needed for a div 2.5 league) Which I think is a point in Richards's favour.

...it's worth bearing in mind also that there has been nothing stopping Canadian cities attempting to be part of USL/D1, the NASL and it's predecessors over the past 17 years. The fact only three have been able to consistently sustain a franchise at that level or higher over the past 25 years pretty much says all that needs to be said. An around about 2000 number for a barebones operation was the number that used to be quoted as the bare minimum required in London, Ont. to keep the Lasers afloat in the original CSL. Getting that still means teetering on the brink of bankruptcy in the absence of a rich sugar daddy investor, however. Around 4000 to 5000 was what I can remembering hearing was needed (from people who were a lot more in the loop than I was) to do the job properly. Suspect it's much the same in an NASL context nowadays. The higher number doesn't mean you are out of the woods because cash flow issues can still sink you if there is one disappointing season and income falls short of the budget spent. Even the 86ers/Whitecaps who regularly achieved that higher number had several near death experiences due to financial issues until Greg Kerfoot arrived on the scene.

Something to bear in mind when break even points like 2200 are mentioned is that is the required actual paid attendance being quoted rather than announced numbers padded with comps or outright inflated so it looks respectable in the newspaper. The two are often very different. When the London Lasers joined the original CSL in 1988 it wasn't until they had been around the league once for away games that they realized that the announced numbers they had been shown by the league were often wildly inflated and that the few hundred that were showing up in London was nothing out of the ordinary. You'll see numbers in the 2000 to 3000 range in old newspaper clippings for original CSL teams like the North York Rockets and the Toronto Blizzard but the reality was often a few dozen for the former and a few hundred for the latter just a few years after 10000 or so had been showing up for NASL games. Much the same can happen in the present day. I went to two MLS games involving TFC back in 2007 (one in Columbus and one in NY) where I would seriously have to question whether a 2000 paid attendance number was actually achieved. According to the MLS website, however, both crowds were over 10,000.

[brettinhalifax]

...Around 4000 to 5000 was what I can remembering hearing was needed (from people who were a lot more in the loop than I was) to do the job properly. Suspect it's much the same in an NASL context nowadays...

I've read the same number. I've kind of come to the conclusion that 4-5,000 is needed for a "real" div 2 operation while about half that will support essentially a semi-pro team (with full time players) and a continental travel budget.

...Something to bear in mind is that when break even points like 2200 are mentioned is that is the required actual paid attendance being quoted rather than announced numbers padded with comps or outright inflated...

Absolutely right.

[Juby]

...it's worth bearing in mind also that there has been nothing stopping Canadian cities attempting to be part of USL/D1, the NASL and it's predecessors over the past 17 years. The fact only three have been able to consistently sustain a franchise at that level or higher over the past 25 years pretty much says all that needs to be said. An around about 2000 number for a barebones operation was the number that used to be quoted as the bare minimum required in London, Ont. to keep the Lasers afloat in the original CSL. Getting that still means teetering on the brink of bankruptcy in the absence of a rich sugar daddy investor, however. Around 4000 to 5000 was what I can remembering hearing was needed (from people who were a lot more in the loop than I was) to do the job properly. Suspect it's much the same in an NASL context nowadays. The higher number doesn't mean you are out of the woods because cash flow issues can still sink you if there is one disappointing season and income falls short of the budget spent. Even the 86ers/Whitecaps who regularly achieved that higher number had several near death experiences due to financial issues until Greg Kerfoot arrived on the scene.

Something to bear in mind when break even points like 2200 are mentioned is that is the required actual paid attendance being quoted rather than announced numbers padded with comps or outright inflated so it looks respectable in the newspaper. The two are often very different. When the London Lasers joined the original CSL in 1988 it wasn't until they had been around the league once for away games that they realized that the announced numbers they had been shown by the league were often wildly inflated and that the few hundred that were showing up in London was nothing out of the ordinary. You'll see numbers in the 2000 to 3000 range in old newspaper clippings for original CSL teams like the North York Rockets and the Toronto Blizzard but the reality was often a few dozen for the former and a few hundred for the latter just a few years after 10000 or so had been showing up for NASL games. Much the same can happen in the present day. I went to two MLS games involving TFC back in 2007 (one in Columbus and one in NY) where I would seriously have to question whether a 2000 paid attendance number was actually achieved. According to the MLS website, however, both crowds were over 10,000.

this is pretty easy to debate, your points about uslnasl are wrong because no ones suggesting we make a league of ussfd2 quality teams.

Your claiming a bunch of hypothetical tickets I was hoping to sell will be hypothetically given away, your arguement is even flimsier then mine. I said if we can sell 2000 tickets, I never said if you can sell or give away 2000 tickets, so your insinuation is once again against a point I never made.

Your comparison to the old csl, like I've said before, is misleading, Your comparing the current situation to Canada 20 years ago? for Canada of all countries this is just wrong, we've increased our population by like 30% since then, and increased urbanized demographics too. This is what I mean when I say it'll happen eventually, and I literally wanna do it the moment it will work for the good of the national team. (technically, worst case scenario, if we put it up too soon, and it goes under, those 5ish years it's existing will probably still help the national team by turning out a few more guys who eventually make the national pool (they'll be better players long term because they developed in a better league).

And you say having a team just breaking even is a bad thing? a team breaking even is a wonderful thing because it's created 25 roster spots for no or a small loss, thats what we want, people don't get into small time soccer to make a tonne of money, they do it cause they want to have a club, and the better team they can get on the field the more likely they are too invest.

a very funny point, you talk about how an old london team wanted like 2000 fans to break even, and they failed to get the fans, then they lied to cover up their problems. So are you accusing me of lieing about my hypothetical numbers? You bring that up like it's a point against a national league, its just a point against lieing, this is what I mean when I say smear

and when you talk about a rich sugar daddy, could you please quote some of numbers I used to describe the loss rather then pretend like it'll cost millions. I dare say, if you look at my business plan, a team could probably exist for 10 years off a thousand fans a game for 1 million. If you have some money and what a football team and you find out it'll cost you about a 1 million to run a good little team for 10 years, that's not the worst offer ever (for groups of investors its a rather realistic goal.

Edit: and I'm wondering how many times I've said in this whole thing that no one is trying to compete with ussfd-2, but still, 9 pages later, still argueing with bbtb, he still debates my points by saying we can't afford or support a national ussfd2(???), I'm just wondering if he was the victim of a serious head trauma? could someone tell me so I can stop wasting my time?

Edit: a final point: anybody can just exxagerate and be overdramatic, teenage girls have been winning arguements this way for decades, try attacking my points instead of exxagerating my points to an absurd level so you can actually argue a point thats irrelavent

[Vic]

I just read on Wikipedia that the PCSL with all Canadian teams is governed by US Soccer and part of the American soccer pyramid with teams qualifying for the US Cup. I can't find a shred about this on the PCSL site though. Anyone know the scoop? If it's legit it's a cup of shame on everyone.

Can't believe these teams and players can't compete for the Challenge and Jubilee. What a rip off for them. Surely BC Soccer can figure it out.

[bettermirror]

No, this thread is about expanding the csl west...read the thread title.

Did you read the thread title?

Look, Juby, you put a lot of thought into your posts. Too much thought. Simplify and point form. Further comments such as "(it seems everytime I say I'll walk away bbtb would immidiately post something as dickish (and stupid, don't forget stupid) as he could, I mean what a little loser chicken ****, and he's way older then me, richard too?" will get you nowhere. Please find a different way to convey your message, or don't act bigger than the other guys when you are acting identically.

Honestly guys, I can't see the big issue? We all want a national league. Who really cares which of us wants it run which way? None of us can fund it. If one of us CAN fund it, they wouldn't be exploring how to run the league on this web page.

National league. Set-standard. Low-level. Don't compete with MLS, but be similar to NASL, but with Canadian Content. Don't allow promotion from "regional" leagues without matching the required national league standard. (ie, financial standing from owner, 2000 seat stadium, whatever the league decides...)

[Richard]

I just read on Wikipedia that the PCSL with all Canadian teams is governed by US Soccer and part of the American soccer pyramid with teams qualifying for the US Cup. I can't find a shred about this on the PCSL site though. Anyone know the scoop? If it's legit it's a cup of shame on everyone.

Can't believe these teams and players can't compete for the Challenge and Jubilee. What a rip off for them. Surely BC Soccer can figure it out.

That wikipedia entry is incorrect. Any US clubs playing in the PCSL fall under the jurisdiction of their own state associations but the PCSL is a Canadian based league.

Furthermore PCSL teams can compete for the Challenge and Jubilee Cup and have done again for the last few years. It is a right granted under the CSA constitution. However there is some conflict with the winter leagues who through their influence at BC Soccer set player registration cutoff dates geared towards winter season clubs which effectively quashes the eligibility of almost all Lower Mainland and Vancouver Island based PCSL clubs. Despite reasoned approaches by the PCSL there is no mood or desire for compromise it seems and BC Soccer has shown no inclination to arbitrate.

[Juby]

Look, Juby, you put a lot of thought into your posts. Too much thought. Simplify and point form. Further comments such as "(it seems everytime I say I'll walk away bbtb would immidiately post something as dickish (and stupid, don't forget stupid) as he could, I mean what a little loser chicken ****, and he's way older then me, richard too?" will get you nowhere. Please find a different way to convey your message, or don't act bigger than the other guys when you are acting identically.

I agree (and have even said so a couple times) but it was a difficult situation, i think bbtb and richard were far too engrained in an extreme stance (it looked like i had to either be right or completly stupid, no willingness for a 'doubt it' stance, and I had trouble walking away when giving up meant something decent, i felt was exxageratingly referred to as really stupid by some arguements I disagree with)

edit: the more I read it the more this kinda bugs me, i said i was just as bad multiple times, so it's not quite apt because I wasn't being the bigger man, I was being a dick as were they, and had the attitude (which was probably wrong) I won't stand for it and was just being up front about it. unless you highlight some of the wonderful things they said about me it looks it now looks like I'm at the worst. (edit: it doesn't bother me that much and you don't have to highlight anything they said, shutting up now)

I did however make a joke about sitting comfy as the youngest guy on our immaturity bench which i don't think quite nominates for any sort of nod related to being a 'bigger man'. (this time this is a good natured joke at all three of our expense)

I honestly hope too god this is read carefully because I really really tried hard to say what I had to say without attacking anybody and without making them feel like theirs anything to rebutt

edit: finally, I think bettermirror responded before I finished that edit, which I think anyone reading this should realize, I felt bad when I saw it just in case he felt it left his words out of context

[bettermirror]

^Totally get that Juby...gracias.

Richard - ya, it's quite ridiculous re: the lack of collaboration between leagues eh?? I haven't checked - how did the Vancouver side do in the Challenge Cup down in Portland?

[Richard]

The Kennedy Cup is in Portland this weekend, Vancouver Thunderbirds will represent the PCSL and on the women's side for the McAdams Cup it will be the Whitecaps Prospects.

[Vic]

Bizarre about the PCSL wikipedia entry.

It's ridiculous that talented amateur men and women of this caliber who train as hard as they do cannot compete for our national trophy over something as petty as a turf war. Shades of the lost plot in Alberta.

[Juby]

I'll try and keep it organized and there will be a decent little club business model around the end, If you can think of something that makes my numbers look stupid, go for it.

and btw, I'm putting this hypothetical division below ussfd-2, around the level of the usl's second division. Also, what I refer to as regionals is all major regional leagues under the national division that would hopefully be under the same umbrella league and probably parrallelish to PDL. and I don't imagine it'll happen till after the regionals are formed (5-10 years)

edit: when (later on)I mention areas with a pdl team, I mean try and get the pdl team to join our league, not undercut them or anything

First main issue: getting the fans

The biggest hole in the whole plan is can it get the fans (I'll be hoping for 2000 fans a game (paying fans but only at an average ticket price of 10$, 5-10$ less then a current csl game) but will provide a model for 1000 fans too), if it can't get any fans it will be losing money however I tend to think it can.

It depends on level of play, markets, and marketing (I'll explain marketing at the end but the over simpliefied way to put it is if we can find a way to get it on tv, even local, local cable, for free, then that will be pretty effective if the level of play's there)

For getting the level of play up I a have a few ideas, we should be able to get a decent amount of our own players into better or locally equivelent situations, I'm thinking players in the lower usl leagues and in low european leagues could be inclined to move back home for a decent wage. More domestic players will be training more and playing at a higher level, as well a great deal of regional very low level spots will have opened up for more people to try their luck, hopefully a few will turn out to be late bloomers and more youngsters who got to start. I don't imagine this league would have a terrible lot of international player pull, however a decent amount of pdl highlights may see it as a step up to. Also, a 3 year contract to an international player represents possible canadian citizenship which is very attractive offer to players from quite a few countries in almost every continent, it's not a great footballing passport but it's a great real world passport. These last two are countrary to developement but I think making the top division as good as possible is important for giving all these new regional youngsters something really worth cracking into.

We don't know what the perfect markets are yet (and I'll be recommending promotion relegation so we can find them all by having alot of regional teams) but their are some good markets for a low level professional team largely because of a lack of competition.

An example of this is the Trois Rivieres Attak (who's existance as the impact's feeder club disappeared only out of the impacts convience) who apparently averaged somewhere between 500 - 1000 spectators in the current one region csl. I believe the reason it averaged relatively good numbers is because it was the best ticket in town. Trois Rivieres isn't a very big city (150 000 people?) but does it not seem mildly possible that a trois rivieres team in a better national division, with local tv coverage could average better then a thousand spectators?

There are alot of communities in canada that are similar sized and I would say put a regional low budget csl team in them and if the fans show up in decent numbers cause it's something to do then maybe they'll be a good candidate city for a better team (if they like a decent group of lads trying their best, they may really like good group of lads competiting at a good level). According to wikipedia's number (which could be wrong) Thunder bay has been averaging 500 - 1000 in the PDL, I can't say they could average 2000 even with a much better hypothetical league but it's encouraging to know an even smaller community could probably average 1000 (if like I said before, much better division and local tv).

Now I want to go over the prospective communities, the large communities (thinking the big 9 here) are different then the rest because they have a more realistic chance of getting investors and would likely still have a team or two whether the fans showed or not. For example, Toronto, it's not unimaginable it could have 3 teams: a decent selling ticket team (lots of people here), a team with some investors who wanted to run a club(lots of money and interest) and the tfc academy (which is pretty much tfc investing in the league). Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa, Edmonton and Calgary are places that realistically should be able to support a low budget team period and some of them may be able to attract the fan/sponsors/investors/links to get a second club. I honestly think that even with a USSFD-2 team in the area, Hamiltor, Quebec City and Winnipeg can probably support one decent national team even if it turned out to be a link to their ussfd-2 team.

The next group of cities I'm going to look at in a little more depth, I'm going to include things like what sort of competition they are facing because their may not be room for a team (in the larger cities you can generally expect theirs a large community that just hasn't been properly 'woo'd' that is probably capable of getting that 2000 fan figure).

The first city on list is London (450 000 people 2006), London is a relatively large community with an ohl team, a semi pro baseball team and some decent amateur teams in other sports as well as already having a CSL and PDL team. It seems like a tough nut to crack but it has the potential to be a good market because the people are there if you can interest them, I would recommend trying to get both of them into a regional league together for a good old fashioned rivalry and hopefully one will become popular enough to move up.

Kitchener is in a very similar position as London except with no CSL or PDL team, all I'd recommend here is put a regional team here and see how it does, it's a good sized market.

St Catherine's is also fairly similar but already has a csl team, the question would be whether the people respond to a better on field product and some marketing

Halifax has a QMJHL team but doesn't seem to have much else as far as decent level teams go (correct me if I'm wrong), if it's only major competition is played in the winter and with over 350 000 people it actually seems like a prime candidate for a team in the national division.

Oshawa is a decent sized market (330 000) near toronto and I think is a great place to put a csl regional team to start, it's got decent competition from the ohl and a few other sports but it's by no means guareenteed so another wait and see approach, I think theres a decent chance one or two of the wait and see's will probably turn out).

Victoria is an interesting one, if they got a ussfd-2 team that's great, in all likelyhood their probably would no longer be room for a team in a national league thats not quite as good(maybe with a good rivalry), however it could probably support a regional team (probably the ussfd-2 teams academy) and if you don't get your ussfd-2 franchise then Victoria is probably one of the best candidate cities because it seems to be a good soccer market that will hopefully respond to an improved on the field product.

The final of these mid level cities is Windsor, in a similar situation as the other ontario teams mentioned as far as competition and population, it had a csl team that failed, it may be possible that the people would respond to a better game in a better league but I would only recommend probably a regional team and a wait and see approach(hopefully being at the same old level in a regional league connected to a good national league will be enough to keep a decent amount of interest in the team)

Now were getting back to the start, where were reaching communities nearing Trois Rivieres and Thunder Bay's size, The goal here is to find the cities that don't have any serious competition (or at the least it's mostly just hockey which doesn't conflict too hard schedual wise). Saskatoon seems like a good market, it's best team is probably it's whl team and the roughriders are in regina, they have a history of teams of all sports not making it but it is a good fit schedual wise and alot of the failed teams didn't have the quasi legitimate sheen of a national league. It is a good sized market(220 000) so if you can catch peoples attention and keep it with a good game 2000 fans may be possible, My real hope is saskatchewan in general is either regina or saskatoon builds a decent team, which pisses off which ever one didn't and a nice rivalry developes.

St. Johns' is another strong candidate city, It's not huge(181 000) but theirs not much competition as far as other sports go, and it's not like it's easy to go to the next city over there, I honestly think that if we put a national league team in st johns', the people there would come out in good numbers cause it would be one of the better things to do, if this all worked out I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see a strong rival also develope here because of a lack of regional rivals).

Sherbrooke is nice example I think, sitting between the QMJHL teams in drummondville and victoriaville, it might, like trois rivieres, appretiate a soccer team by being the best ticket in town. (it does have alot of students though who aren't always great consumers)

Moncton, Kingston, Chicoutimi, Guelph, Sudbury, Kelowna and Abbotsford all seem like more teams that have the potential of being a good soccer city, so get a regional team in there as quick as we can and see if it takes. New Brunswick might be interesting too, maybe a top division team and then two rivals in the other two major cities in the regional leagues. I think Kelowna is in a similar position with penticton and kamloops nearby.

There's about another 30-40 cities with around 40 000 - 120 000 people, obviously most of them can't support a national team, alot could probably sustain a regional team, if they all have regional team you may find out that a couple having surprisingly good community support (as the best team there maybe the locals put invest alot of identity with their team eventually or soccer just catches on) or the odd small city might have a guy with money who loves soccer or so on (I'm not saying you'll get much here but I don't think it's terribly unlikely to think a couple communities might surprise).

Now we get to the point of all this, I've made (before we get into all the financial details) a list of teams that could potentially get 2000 fans. The big 9 cities could probably support 10 -12 clus on their own. London, Halifax, Victoria and one more of the ontarian medium sized cities could probably do it. St Johns, Saskatoon, Sherbrook, Kelowna, Thunder Bay and Trois Rivieres. This right here is at least 20 teams, not all of them would work, so you relegate the ones that can't bring in the fans and have little backing till they start getting fans regionally (while also no longer spending much money in lower leagues) and replace them with the most successful regional teams. This system helps in a few ways, if someone wants to bring their local team to the top instead of spending a bunch on buying a national division team outright in a different city, they can move up, if someone loses their sponsors or initial ticket figures dwindle down to nothing, your not stuck with a team spewing money, it goes down (through financial irregularity penalties if they somehow manage to win) to where it can no longer lose too much money, and if the community gets behind it one day, they don't have to go out and start a brand new franchise with completely unexperienced ownership(hopefully by then it would have found someone who could balance budgets regionally).

Now this is why the 2000 figure is so important, if you can get this many fans for 19 matches at 10$ a ticket, you are making a turnover of 380 000. If you had 1000 fans for 11 matches are making a turnover of 110 000. The second figure isn't great but it's still doable. Now what I'm recommending is generally, ticket revenue covers the wage budget, for 300 000 you could get a pretty good team together, for 100 000 you have mildly improved some current csl teams.

However I am skipping quite a few money making and money losing factors. After wages, travel is clearly the biggest expense, I have various solutions for this: a couple teams in the same area could probably go splits on a bus if they had decent start up cash which would save money long term but is initially expensive and would also require they carefully plan both teams road scheduals.

Also it's tremendously important though that the schedual is made in the most logical sense possible (it may be weird but it will always be like thunder bay winnipeg saskatoon or vice versa). The more likely though is that the general goal, like tickets covering wages, that the teams get enough sponsors (ad barriers, kit spaces, hell league and team names) to cover the travel costs, a good way to really get this done would be to 'court' potential sponsors who are in the travel business (greyhound, via etc.), I don't really care if all the teams had to have the same greyhound logo on the front of the jersey, if it worked, great.

Another idea I had for travel is maybe the travel budget should factored and dealt with league wide (averaging out the travel costs for all teams despite how much travel they need, if the southern ontario to quebec city corridor could afford to pay more to help the other teams pay less it would work out but this might be unfeasible but its an idea (if the league had some sort deal like 'greyhound canadian soccer league' it might be able to subsidize the whole centrally averaged travel total)

Finally, because the goal is about 2000 fans outside, I don't think it's to impossible to find the good enough venues and affordable (or even city subsidized) deals so hopefully the spending habits of the 2000 people at the game as far as food, drink and merchandise might cover that cost. There are other ways to make money too, such as club links, if you were the feeder club of a relatively important club, it is not uncommon for you to be owed near 50 000 a year as part of the agreement, the players they loan you greatly help because the parent club usually pays the wages of players it loans to affiliates.

So basically

tickets pay the wages

sponsors pay the travel costs

Food, drink, merchandise cover pitch and stand costs

It may not work perfectly, buf for example if you manage to get the sponsors to cover travel, you can still look for sponsors, you just may have less to sell. If you decided to spend 200 000 in wages and make 250 000 in tickets you could fix a sponsor gap. If it costs a decent amount to use a local small stadium you could either hold back on wages or get a few more sponsors to catch up.

The fact of the matter is that most people who invest into low level soccer clubs, do so because they want to own and be involved with a club, people don't go into low level soccer as a way to make some serious money. They obviously don't want to lose a bunch of money but they want a good club to be apart of, if the competition was good and they were breaking even or losing very little money then I kinda think they'd be happy (they'd literally be living their dream while hopefully keeping their personal finances largely seperate). One little tidbit is that technically, a team in especially toronto might just be selling 5 000 tickets if the league actually got somewhere, and because of this, I would oddly be against a salary cap, the better the league the better everything should be as long as someone wasn't desperately driving a basic setup into the ground, and it doesn't usually hurt a league to have giants, some people love em, some hate em, generally interest goes up.

Marketing, I have a few ideas, I think we should do even silly little thing like an expansion applications and big announcements (even if the application fee was like 10 bucks), people in their communities would hear about there teams like 6 months to year in advance, it would be mulling around their heads, some might be expecting to opening game annoncement or watched hopefully at the silly little expansion confrence.

TV, even for free on the most local channel is essential for two reasons, showing off your product to the community and them keeping them apart of it all season long. The second is too really show off something nice to all the people in the regional leagues, inspire them to achieve more, theirs a big psyche difference between supporting your lower division team and supporting your local team in your local league. This marketing point is a little silly but it will also be on tv for real investors, we don't know them but theirs 200 000 ish millionaires in canada, your more likely to catch their eye with a good product on tv.

Also being on tv increases the value and effectiveness of your sponsorships.

Doing things like holding local tryouts that may not necessarily yield much are a great way of getting your local soccer community excited.

The goal of all this is make a huge amount of better roster spots for our players to develope for the national team and to place the burden exactly where it can be carried.

I have one advantage on my side, the business model is fairly good except for the 'can it get the fans' problem, it didn't work 20 years ago, however this is canada. Our population has grown like 30% since then and urbanization has also increased and this figure is only picking up steam. Interest is on the rise, but only incrimentaly (not really a factor unless your talking decades). One day it will be possible, we are a country on the rise, I say the day it is possible, do it or have it in place already for the good of development. The longer time goes on the more workable this plan gets because it's not asking for a terrible lot.

The final thing (I probably did forget something though) is what makes this all important is that if it gets by and breaks even, if theirs any changes in the sports landscape it's something to build on rather then spending an even greater sum of money later to make it out of nothing, which is why I say get on making more regional csl type leagues so we can pick 20 already decent clubs from 80. Me looking at a map figured leagues should be made like this, BC, ALB/SAS, MAN/NONT, SONT, QUE, MAR but whatever arrangement successfully gets to all the good markets is great.

and if you look really carefully at my numbers I hope you'll see how much I personally rounded them against my case, like $10 a ticket, $10 to see a better game?

[newyork44]

I have been reading a lot of posts on here with arguements about the CSL-expansion a national league etc...

Well let me give you a few facts that I am aware of first hand:

1-I work for a company where the owners are in serious disscussions with the CSL about expansion--for a club in NIAGARA FALLS-NEW YORK!

2-They have to work out visa problems for other teams in Canada traveling to USA-BUt league may require multi country visas for its players--to me this shows they are pretty serious about accepting the team into the league

3-The company I work for has a excellent owner with a soccer pedigree (as a former player in college etc) and is a soccer nut with pretty deep pockets

4-The CSL is charging a expansion fee again and performance bond

5-The CSL has put in expansion contract that there will be western and CENTRAL expansion in 2012 and teams in the league before then will share in expansion bounty

6-There will be a Canada player minimum on each roster starting in 2012 at 14 players for each roster

and the big one I think:

7-starting in 2011 - Nine (9) players on each squad must have a contact (pro) of at least $5000--this number goes up 2012...........................

[Juby]

I think this all sounds pretty good, I really hope it works out. The new york state team is very surprising to me personally, I can't say I really expected that, If they keep up the league standards it's probably for the best. A good set of goals too I think.

[Vic]

Actually no disrespect to ny44 or NFNY and thanks for the information, but I don't like hearing about this at all. I support the CSL as a Canadian solution. This will diminish any hope of future Canadian connectivity on a larger scale, and essentially lock the league into becoming a fixed regional island of Mid-Eastern Central North America. Which IMHO is a poor goal and/or vision.

[SR]

9 players at $5000 plus all the other expenses with only a couple of hundred going to games means most owners will take a huge loss.

[Bill Spiers]

and the big one I think:

7-starting in 2011 - Nine (9) players on each squad must have a contact (pro) of at least $5000--this number goes up 2012...........................

This latter item is, I believe, a CSA requirement. The full player salary budget must be $75,000.00

Although I'm not sure what the CSA finally approved, these were the proposed standards for Semi-Professional Soccer (although there were transitional provisions for 2010):

PROFESSIONAL SOCCER STANDARDS - SEMI-PROFESSIONALSOCCER

The following are minimum standards for the Professional Leagues and Teams in Canada who engage players and coaching staff on a part-time, semi-professional basis. These standards

represent the CSA minimums and individual leagues may adopt more stringent standards if they so desire. The underlying principle upon which these standards are based is that all teams

provide compensation to its players to participate in matches for the benefit of paying spectators. The Canadian Soccer Association reserves the right to amend these standards at any time,

pursuant to its By-Laws, Rules and Regulations, to meet the changing landscape of soccer development in Canada.

• All financial figures in this document will be adjusted for inflation after 2010.

• Teams playing in a league that is sanctioned by another National Association will be considered for individual team sanction by the CSA as long as the standards of the sanctioning association meet or exceed those of the CSA and after payment of the appropriate Team sanctioning fee to the CSA

2.1 League Office and Administration

2.1.1 The league office shall be located in a city served by appropriate domestic air services and in a physical location commensurate with the status of the league.

2.1.2 The personnel of the league office may be headed by a part-time or full time Commissioner, hired by and reporting to the league Board of Directors. He shall exercise the powers vested in his office by the league bylaws and regulations and shall have the necessary broad experience for a chief operating officer in a league of this caliber.

2.1.3 The league may employ other personnel under the direction of the Commissioner, including, but not restricted to a Director of operations, a Director of Officials, a Director of Public Relations, and a Director of Marketing. In addition, the league shall retain adequate accounting and support staff, as well as any additional staff the Board may deem necessary from time to time. The league office shall also be sufficiently staffed so as to be able to provide an equal service to all clubs regardless of time zone, and to handle the additional workload during the peak playing days of the semi-professional season.

2.1.4 The league office shall be equipped with all the communications and other equipment necessary to the twelve month operation of the league and its member teams, including such items as multiple phone tines, a twenty-four hour answering service and all equipment necessary to facilitate communication with the working press.

2.2 Stadia

Each member team shall have access, at the time designated for home games, to a stadium which has permanent seating for paying spectators. The stadium must be enclosed. It must have adequate spectator security, adequate vehicular access and parking, permanent public sanitation facilities, and adequate concessions. Notwithstanding the foregoing the stadium must also meet the municipal safety standards and, where appropriate, hold a license/permit allowing soccer to be played in the venue. It must have quality flood- lighting suitable for TV broadcasting. The stadium must have a field of play which measures at least 64 meters by 100 meters (expandable to 75 by 110meters) unless otherwise required by the Competition authorities and approved by the CSA. All outdoor playing surfaces must meet FIFA standards. The stadium must have field markings and equipment pursuant to FIFA Rules, a stadium clock capable of

counting up or down 45 (forty five) minutes, a scoreboard indicating the current score, a public address system. A minimum of three separate locker rooms (home team, away team and match officials) are to be provided. Each is to have separate showers and toilets that are not accessible by the public. On match day security is to be provided for the locker rooms from a minimum of 2 hours before the scheduled kick off time until one hour after the game or when the last player or official has left the area, whichever is appropriate.

(Note: new build stadiums should have 3 additional locker rooms to enable double headers to be played and separate locker rooms for male and female match officials).

2.3 Day of Game Personnel

Teams must have a press box supervisor, a field manager, a visiting team liaison person, a match official liaison adequate uniformed security, access to an ambulance with ten minute response time, at least six uniformed ball persons, adequate ticket sellers, ticket takers, and ushers. Key personnel must be able to communicate via radio to the match day operations controller.

2.4 Press Box

There must be a permanent press box capable of seating ten people, with adequate security and a separate area for the working press. A separate area for electronic broadcast, at least one broadcast phone line if requested by a visiting team, one long distance phone line, one local phone line, online capabilities and refreshments.

2.5 Team Office Facilities

Each member team must maintain a full-time separate office, located in a commercial building located in the team’s market area. The office must be able to accommodate the required staff and team activities. It must be open during regular business hours for twelve months a year. It should be equipped with a fax machine and all the usual and necessary office equipment and supplies.

2.6 Team Office Personnel

Throughout the year, each team must maintain a part-time or full time General Manager, a part-time Secretary and at least one part-time staff person responsible for sales marketing, media and public relations. Hours of work should be so arranged that the office remains open for a twelve month period. In addition, a ticket and sponsors sales person should be employed during the season and other staff should be employed as necessary.

2.7 Team Personnel

Each team will have a roster which has a minimum of 18 players and a maximum of 25 players. All players must be under contract to the team. Each team will employ a head coach on a regular part-time basis. In addition, each team will, during the season, employ an assistant coach, a trainer, a team doctor and an equipment manager.

2.8 League and Team Media/Publicity

2.8.1 Each team shall be required to produce the following media and publicity related materials: a media guide, a printed schedule card and season ticket brochure; a weekly press release beginning one month prior to the start of the season and continuing through league playoffs; an up-to- date set of uniform statistics and a list of post-game media contacts.

2.8.2 The league shall also produce the materials set forth above, and shall produce other materials designed to promote the league and its teams.

2.9 League Procedural Standards

2.9.1 The league and the teams therein shall adopt and adhere to a schedule of games; maintain and promote league standings; establish uniform roster rules for dropping and adding players; maintain a separate set of home and away uniforms and warm ups; assign a uniform number to a player that does not change as long as the player is on that team’s roster; establish rules for the approval of non- league games; exchange travel information and itineraries; and establish rules and procedures for player and team discipline.

2.9.2 The league shall establish rules and standards for game presentation which shall be maintained by all teams.

2.9.3 Leagues will be required to respect the FIFA International calendar, and where the release of more than 3 international players from any one team are called for international duty, permit the team to reschedule its league match if requested.

2.10 FIFA Rules

FIFA rules shall be followed in all instances with the exception that a league may establish specific and separate rules for point standing, which-shall be adhered to by all teams.

2.11 Referees

All referees officiating in games shall be registered with the CSA through a Provincial Association in accordance with CSA rules. The league shall establish a list of referees and assistant referees in conjunction with the CSA prior to the start of each season who meets the criteria set by the CSA Referees Committee. No other person shall act as a match official in the league without the prior approval of the CSA.

2.12 Coaching

At the commencement of season 2010 the Head Coach of any team in the league shall hold a Coaching B License (National) issued by the Association. After the commencement of season 2010 a Head Coach may only be hired without the B License (National) where he or she has demonstrated enrollment to actively participate in the next available B License coaching course conducted by the Association. Failure to obtain the B license at the conclusion of the next available B License coaching course conducted by the Association would render the coach inoperable within the professional club environment. By the commencement of season 2011 all coaches (except the Head Coach) must hold, as a minimum, a Provincial B License.

2.13 Team Budget

Each team in 2010 should operate on an annual team budget of $225,000. Each team will be required to provide a financial summary signed off by a CMA/CGA representing an

accurate assessment of the financial operations of a club during the calendar year.

2.14 Team Player Budget

Each team, in 2010, should operate on at least a $75,000 budget for player salaries with at least 9 of players on each team having a professional contract and being paid at least

$5,000 per year. The CSA will continually monitor the number of players on contracts equal to or over $5, 000 per year to ensure compliance. Should a team fall below the

minimum, they will be subject to disciplinary sanctions imposed by the CSA which may include, but not limited to, fines, point deduction, or suspension from the league. The CSA

has the right to audit the overall number of $75,000 salary budget at the end of the year. If a team is not in compliance, the team and the league may be subject to disciplinary

sanctions imposed by the CSA.

2.15 Letter of Credit/Annual Fees

Each team shall post with the league a letter of credit as required by the league membership. In addition the team shall pay its annual registration fee and the appropriate league fees prior to the commencement of the season. The league will be required to pay an annual league registration fee to the CSA as determined by the CSA Board from time to time. Each team will post with the league a minimum letter of credit of $50,000 along with a minimum annual league fee of $5,000.

2.16 Club Structure ~ Player Development

By the commencement of season 2013, all clubs shall be required to run a player development program based on a minimum of one development team that should compete at the highest level (Tier 1, AAA etc) possible for youth soccer in the region where the club is registered. An official affiliation with an existing youth club is acceptable, providing the players are registered in the AAA / Tier 1 League. All youth teams must fall under the control and supervision of a head coach with a minimum “B” License (National) or equivalent.