Juby Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 I think the KPMG report (commissioned by the CSA but then ignored because many people with Juby and Vic's sort of outlook couldn't cope emotionally with the conclusions) of the late 90s was correct and that the conditions are not currently in place for Canada to have a successful conventional pro league of its own. We are very lucky that the USSF allows our top teams into their league. Link it, so we can be sure your aren't twisting things, also in the late 90's their was less then 30 million people, now it's pushing 35, 10 years it'll be 40 million and interest will be higher. Also you said at one point that if a league were to ever happen, it would have happened by now? yet when you make that point now, you act like your being consistant when your officially contridicting yourself (will never happen cause it failed before, and after I teased you for that, now it's reports that say not yet? what was the point of everything you said before that?), stop acting like a twat, sometimes it's preferrable to give up then to prove your just willing to say anything to keep up the appearance that your not a twit. and these to claims that it's emotion ruling reality, just a stupid attempt to pidgeon hole my opinion as something other than what it is. I don't care if we set up a league and a few teams went broke if we found a stable structure, I want to create roster spots so we can improve our play and make a world cup. you guys seem to prefer feeling sorry for yourselves and enjoy being able to pity yourself when things (as you expect) fail to work. And finally, bbtb, "We are very lucky that the USSF allows our top team teams into their league", how many times have I said get as many ussf d-2 as we can, but still you say this statement like you can't read, like if someone in real life behaved that stupid in an arguement I would really want to smack them. are you stupid or do you just skim(both?)? also it shows I was right, you fully have your butt presented and ready for the americans, yes, were so blessed, the americans let us bring our decent support into their leagues *sarcasm* (think about how terrible ussfd-2 would have been this year without montreal and vancouver, their not helping us, their helping themselves by using our best markets, and barely investing below that, a few pdl teams). could you imagine how bleak mls would look if it didn't have tfc as a financial golden boy to sell to investors? But were just lucky that we can join the system designed to help americans make the world cup, once again, grow some ambition, I'm fine with being in mls and ussfd2, but you really act like we should just let the americans decide everything and then throw our money at it whether its a good idea or not. The current system is terrible and moronic, you know why? it ignores huge canadian communities, half the system gives 3 teams (for 30 million people) a good setup and then drops down to a highly amateur setup (so all or nothing in the american system, once again, stupid) and if you want some in between ground (the way you guys talk it's like everyone's either gonna be star or gonna suck by the age of 20) you need to live in southern ontario or bc cause according to a guy from london and a guy from bc, no one outside these regions could ever sell a decent amount of tickets to a decent game or get a few investors to maybe cover travel, their evidence: it didn't work 20 years ago when we cared so were gonna be cranks till we die. I'm done with this cause you just don't seem to be using your head, you say things that show your not really reading what I'm saying, your not offering any idea's, your just being a naysayer like some high school kid who like's to talk in cliche's and dramatics, why (a desperate need for attention). Honestly, don't act like such a dumb ass, I'd be willing to have a big long debate if you were willing to come up with new original points to respond to but you don't, the closest you came here is when you eventually contridicted yourself and that's not a new point, it's you trying to save face (rather then come up with answers or solutions, real credible guy). Honestly, I just don't get why your so insistant on such a stupid stance, if this system is so great, WHY ARE WE NOWHERE NEAR A WORLD CUP!? something drastic is a helluva lot better then just sitting at home feeling sorry for yourself, something clearly, clearly needs to be done (or do you really think were gonna ride the thunder bay chill development model to a world cup? morons) but do you guys offer an idea? no you just **** on everyone elses apparantly content to never get back in the world cup (like seriously, are you guys even canada fans or are you american fans who happen to be canadians? or do you just absolutely love feeling sorry for yourself and are scared of a world where you were represented by a ...winner) Edit: btw, waiting for the americans to fix our system and develope our players in not an original idea, it's the exact opposite, and I can't decide on what adjective describes it best: stupid, slothful, uninspired, apathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 The background to the KPMG report is easy enough to find by Google search and is a reasonable level of assumed knowledge for people who follow Canadian pro soccer closely. Beyond that I found the use of this phrase very telling: ...if this system is so great, WHY ARE WE NOWHERE NEAR A WORLD CUP!?... Nobody on this thread is saying that the system that is in place right now is "great" or is arguing that it is what they would want in an ideal world. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxkdmL3iMCY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juby Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 so you couldn't make a real rebuttle? great cause I thought of something else, NASL failed like 30 years ago, then mysteriously, 20 years ago, MLS starts up and surprisingly, just manages to make it even though it didn't work not to long before that????? weird ehh, the fact is they did a bare bones league and didn't set their sights to high at the start (which is what I have been saying) but no, we should just give up cause your a pessimist. "for people who follow canadian pro soccer closely" passive aggressive much? you said sound like ray's mom on everybody loves raymond. And the point of the matter is, yes you do think the current system is great, cause if you didn't maybe you could come up with an original and helpful idea, why would I believe you don't love the american system when your clearly to busy in the back seat of the usa's car to come up with a change? The worst is, I used to sing that rolling stones song to my sister when she was whining, I thought it was hysterical, when I was 6, and your the whinny little naysaying puss here, not me, I'm trying, your the one who's given up to feel sorry for himself. and the final bit of moron spewing out of you, is an ideal world? in an idea world we would have 6 teams selling 20 000 tickets, can you not make a single point without exxagerating, misleading or just talking **** in general? I think we can get a couple thousand spectators for a few games in a few markets in canada, your sure we can't cause 20 years ago you and your pals couldn't do it. And when someone tells you to back up your statements, you don't tell them to do their own research, other wise you look like you have no academic honesty. one more funny thing: I can actually afford to make a bit of a fool of myself arguing with you for 2 reasons: your clearly just as pathetic, going on and on (but making far less sense), and I am 25, you are much older I'm pretty sure, sure it looks bad for me to let you keep egging me on even though your clearly only defending your points because their 'yours' (not cause their correct), but you know whats more embaressing? being your age and acting like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 Not a lot of point in pursuing this further but it is somewhat amusing to receive a lecture about posting style from someone who uses words and phrases like "moron" and "dumb ass". I will reiterate that I have never felt more more optimistic about the future of Canadian soccer than I have over the last two years and that is down to the wonderful things that have been happening in an MLS, NASL and PDL context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juby Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 I've been wondering for a while if the last word was still desperately important to someone your age, It seems so, I'll reiterate that no ones talking about mls and nasl and that the csl in one region is already more important for our developement than the pdl teams (honestly, they play twice as long and theirs twice as many teams (I mean canadian teams) playing at a somewhat higher level. At the very least do that regional csl model all over canada and then see what we have) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex D Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 I think the KPMG report (commissioned by the CSA but then ignored because many people with Juby and Vic's sort of outlook couldn't cope emotionally with the conclusions) of the late 90s was correct and that the conditions are not currently in place for Canada to have a successful conventional pro league of its own. We are very lucky that the USSF allows our top teams into their league. I agree about having a coast to coast first division. It would not be possible to pull one out of a hat today, but there is potential in the future if the new clubs of today mature and grow. But I should have been more specific, I meant in the lower leagues, no PDL, NCAA, CSL, PCSL, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.T. Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 ...for people who follow canadian pro soccer closely... There's the key Juby - the future of soccer will be determined by the leaders, not the followers, so keep your chin up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 I agree about having a coast to coast first division. It would not be possible to pull one out of a hat today, but there is potential in the future if the new clubs of today mature and grow. But I should have been more specific, I meant in the lower leagues, no PDL, NCAA, CSL, PCSL, etc.I usually tend to point to the state leagues in Melbourne and Sydney in Australia as the type of setup that the soccer community in each major Canadian city should aspire to having. Based on the principle of promotion and relegation to keep things competitive, all away games within a reasonable travel distance so all of the best available players are involved, with a strong openly semi-pro component to it in the elite level divisions. It wouldn't be all that difficult to get that sort of setup organized in most cities. Most of the pieces are already in place. The thing people in the Toronto area maybe don't grasp is that the provincial cups (and by extension the national championships) tend to be viewed as the big prize to strive for in soccer in other parts of the country, while the Toronto area has a different outlook on that because of the legacy of the NSL. As long as the provincial cups are kept amateur only by the CSA (for anachronistic reasons) there is a strong motivation even for clubs large enough to contemplate attempting an openly semi-pro sort of setup to remain amateur in status that has absolutely nothing to do with issues like quality of play, a lack of commitment to training or an inability to develop players and coaches. As a completely random example to support that last assertion a club that has featured prominently in the National Championships, Kings of Donair of Halifax, played a role in the emergence of Ante Jazic who played for Chivas against TFC on Saturday and were also the first rung on the coaching ladder for Stephen Hart who eventually made it all the way to coaching the national team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juby Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 just for fun - point one is pretty much a concession, except you desperately want to keep your australia fixation in it, even your wording has changed to not dismiss semi pro. As I've said many times, get those peices together, then try a league (like they did, except ours would be below two divisions and barebones) point 2 is just a long bit of nothing, they want provincial cups more then that fat load of nothing, I'm in a comfy position but were talking about expansion, your making your conclusions devoid of the competition, I'm also making hopeful conclusions devoid of competition, the difference is, I'm saying let's compete and see and your saying why bother. Point 3 - diction...DICTION... don't say the same word all the time, and when you over use words like anachronistic it sounds like your showing off edit: I just thought of something funny, a national league could really take advantage of all the "I hate toronto" sentiment around canada, a toronto team playing away might bring in a few extra home supporters for all the wrong reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 You usually tend to point to Melbourne and Sydney? Melbourne Victory and Sydney FC (i.e. Peirre Littbarski, Dwight Yorke) are professional teams in the national league that average 20-30,000 per game! They also both have teams in the Australian national professional women's league that our Canadian women like Katie Thorlakson and Brittany Timko have played in. Successful professional leagues for both men and women is the ONLY point about Australia that matters in this conversation. I don't know what your interest in American soccer is, if it roots from a CSL death wish or a financial or emotional investment in a PDL or Super Y franchise, but I can honestly say it's been a while since I've seen someone try so hard to believe something. There haven't been a lot of people walking around the last 60 years saying the CFL won't work in Canada or that we'd be better off with NFL teams in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. But feel free to put your loudspeaker back on top of the van and drive across the country waving that ridiculous old KPMG report. Ontario and Quebec love a good joke but I figure once you hit the prairies they lock you up for your own health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 Slighly surreal to hear that somebody who admits to being a "shivering bundle of pure unadulterated and unbridled emotion and passion" is concerned that I might wind up locked up for my own health. Beyond that do people really not grasp that in an ideal world I would prefer a strong Canadian full-time pro league if it were possible to have one and that any preference for USSF sanctioned league at that level is for pragmatic reasons? Hence the reference earlier to can't always get what you want but instead getting what you need? If people can't get their heads around something that simple I'm afraid the ignore list is the only answer, especially when emotionally overwrought arguments based on this stuff are getting in the way of the core subject matter of the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 Run away, close your eyes, ban, block, turn the computer off. Canadians interested in national soccer identity and culture, a sovereign network of infrastructure, self-sufficiency and self-determination will always be here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettermirror Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 Wow, that was a lot of reading to get nowhere. Isn't there a song by the Talking Heads along these lines? 1. We all want a national league 2. It needs very serious investors COAST-to-COAST 3. We all want SSS in each community for these teams 4. Needs to be regionalized at a developmental level (keep names PCSL and CSL, who cares - but before any team can be promoted to the national league they have to meet standards such as financial viability, facilities and youth program connections) 5. Don't bother competing with MLS, can't happen. Look, Victoria, Edmonton, Ottawa and Hamilton are already moving in to replace Van, TO, Mtl, (and Port) in NASL. Those are 7 of our largest communities. There are not enough viable options nation-wide for our own league without those cities. So unless a second team in each of those cities comes up, we're done. CSL is where its at right now, like it or not. I suggest we continue to build the CSL. That next step should include Quebec, not BC. BC needs its own investors with an eye to matching CSL before any further discussion can happen. Also a major shift in focus needs to occur in BC from a winter-playing-province to a summer-playing one. (this change is developing at youth level, but not men's - which is quite rightly about vacations and playing for fun, because there is no alternative). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFCRegina Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 Wow, that was a lot of reading to get nowhere. Isn't there a song by the Talking Heads along these lines? 1. We all want a national league 2. It needs very serious investors COAST-to-COAST 3. We all want SSS in each community for these teams 4. Needs to be regionalized at a developmental level (keep names PCSL and CSL, who cares - but before any team can be promoted to the national league they have to meet standards such as financial viability, facilities and youth program connections) 5. Don't bother competing with MLS, can't happen. Look, Victoria, Edmonton, Ottawa and Hamilton are already moving in to replace Van, TO, Mtl, (and Port) in NASL. Those are 7 of our largest communities. There are not enough viable options nation-wide for our own league without those cities. So unless a second team in each of those cities comes up, we're done. CSL is where its at right now, like it or not. I suggest we continue to build the CSL. That next step should include Quebec, not BC. BC needs its own investors with an eye to matching CSL before any further discussion can happen. Also a major shift in focus needs to occur in BC from a winter-playing-province to a summer-playing one. (this change is developing at youth level, but not men's - which is quite rightly about vacations and playing for fun, because there is no alternative). While I love to dream of a National League, NASL is the closest we're going to get to a truly national league (teams in mid-major markets), unless we develop something along the lines of the CHL at the CSL level. Nothing wrong with that and i think we can do it. But avoid instituting a national cup until there is firmer financial footing for such a league. Our Major Markets are always going to be locked up in the MLS and will have the third tier filled in. It's doubtful that a NASL team could function in the same city as an MLS one at this stage. But maybe i'm wrong. CSL needs to drive the semi-pro level as it's better for development than the PDL (too short of season with players who run off to University at the end of the season) and CIS. And you're right, CSL can drive itself forward in Quebec. That's a logical step. PCSL should be driving towards having semi-pro standards like the CSL has. What I would ultimately like to see in the next two years is a Corridor Football League...Windsor to Quebec City. It's doable if the right investors can be found...somebody call Jim Balsillie! Waterloo needs a club! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brettinhalifax Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 ...How else would you manage to put a soccer team into Thunder Bay that people will pay to watch? PDL copies one of Canada's great success stories in player development terms (i.e. junior hockey) by using student athletes to create viable leagues in far flung communities that are too small to sustain fully pro teams and two far apart for open age semi-pro to be a viable option. It should be part of the mix going forward, in my opinion... PDL actually copies an American/baseball success story. Collegiate summer baseball leagues use NCAA baseball players to fill the rosters of teams playing out of small stadiums in small towns that cannot support professional baseball. It is entertaining baseball (if you like baseball) and is a great way to spend a summer evening drinking a few beers. As far as the importance of the PDL, I submit that one of the great things about the PDL is that it is a place for prospective soccer entrepreneurs (like the people responsible for FC London and the Victoria Highlanders) to learn the business and for Canadians to get accustomed to watching soccer in person instead of on TV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted August 10, 2010 Share Posted August 10, 2010 Those baseball leagues are a more direct parallel but the key thing I think some people still don't grasp (i.e. based on comments about having semi-pro divisions in a CHL style regional format) is that student athletes have to be used because the travel and time commitment involved would be too much for most of the best available adult players who have to work for a living and raise a family etc. There's a reason why the CHL or PDL sort of league format doesn't tend to be a major factor in spectator terms in small European countries where you can drive from one end of the country to another in the space of a couple of hours. I can see where you are coming from on the stepping stone to something bigger stuff but I think people should keep in mind what happened with the Calgary Storm/Mustangs. Things were going well at PDL level but the franchise eventually crashed and burned when they attempted to move up to USL-D1. It's a bit like the concept of people in corporate structures eventually being promoted to their level of incompetence. Personally think the fully pro (and close to MLS in playing standards) D2 sort of level is unlikely to be sustainable in either London or Victoria and that it's better to stick with PDL for now in the smaller cities and have an ongoing Des Moines Menace type team rather than having a short-lived Calgary Mustangs followed by having nothing beyond the local or provincial elite amateur/semi-pro level of the sport (i.e. AMSL and teams like the Calgary Callies in an Alberta context). In cities like Edmonton, Hamilton and Ottawa I suspect it will eventually take a Charleston Battery style SSS and a soccer loving investor with a lot of patience and very deep pockets to avoid a repeat of the Edmonton Aviators sort of scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juby Posted August 10, 2010 Share Posted August 10, 2010 Those baseball leagues are a more direct parallel but the key thing I think some people still don't grasp (i.e. based on comments about having semi-pro divisions in a CHL style regional format) is that student athletes have to be used because the travel and time commitment involved would be too much for most of the best available adult players who have to work for a living and raise a family etc. There's a reason why the CHL or PDL sort of league format doesn't tend to be a major factor in spectator terms in small European countries where you can drive from one end of the country to another in the space of a couple of hours. I can see where you are coming from on the stepping stone to something bigger stuff but I think people should keep in mind what happened with the Calgary Storm/Mustangs. Things were going well at PDL level but the franchise eventually crashed and burned when they attempted to move up to USL-D1. It's a bit like the concept of people in corporate structures eventually being promoted to their level of incompetence. Personally think the fully pro (and close to MLS in playing standards) D2 sort of level is unlikely to be sustainable in either London or Victoria and that it's better to stick with PDL for now in the smaller cities and have an ongoing Des Moines Menace type team rather than having a short-lived Calgary Mustangs followed by having nothing beyond the local or provincial elite amateur/semi-pro level of the sport (i.e. AMSL and teams like the Calgary Callies in an Alberta context). In cities like Edmonton, Hamilton and Ottawa I suspect it will eventually take a Charleston Battery style SSS and a soccer loving investor with a lot of patience and very deep pockets to avoid a repeat of the Edmonton Aviators sort of scenario. *shakes head* The point of pooling resources in a national division is to get a few more full time contracts at a higher level of play, all you've pointed out is that it's hard to be low level soccer player when your 25+, of course it is, which means some retire and the better ones (who probably get given the better contracts) perserver (and more contracts means more will). PDL is a student league, CSL is a mens league with a decent amount of youth, all youve said here is that a nation wide pdl wouldn't work(so??). Come on guy, use your head, their will be better options here for players considering retiring, yeah it's hard, so lets quash their dreams??? to further illustrate why csl expansion won't work, you pointed out how a usl team failed? and were talking about creating a western csl (which would have cheaper travel costs than pdl) at a decent level (hopefully the same level as the csl now) and then moving up to a level below ussf d-2, so you pointed out an example of an even smaller team trying to make an even bigger jump?? Are you purposely this misleading or do you generally not think things through? "Personally think the fully pro d2 sort of level is unlikely to be sustainable in either London or Victoria" that would make sense except NO ONES TALKING ABOUT USSF D-2! you can't say our arguements are wrong because something completely off topic doesn't make sense (chewbacca defense), USE YOUR HEAD. Or are you some sort of a liar that likes to change peoples opinions to something you CAN argue? How many times have I said get as many USsFD-2 teams as we can?? I'm saying let's aim for a level around usl second division to start (the only times I heard serious mentions of getting something near a ussfd-2 level was if the naslusl disappeared), also I mentioned a goal of if a national division took place, maybe they could have wage expenses in the low 6 figures, how by any stretch is this comparable to USSF d-2? Why do you keep argueing with points were not making? your the only one who doesn't 'grasp' much of this and I actually think you do by now, your just desperate to save face. Do everyone a favour, reread the thread, don't skim, don't read a line and guess you know what people are saying. read it and stop being a twat. just in case your a complete idiot, I'll try and draw it for you again: -----MLS -----USSFd-2(nasl usl) CSL---------------USL second division CSL regionals------USL PDL Hopefully the csl can get ahead of the usl second division, that national division won't appear till after the regional csl leagues are formed, way earlier I said the hope would be 12-20 team league, overall wages in the low 6 figures(hopefully higher eventually), decent sponsors and a couple thousand spectators. Does this resemble the impact or the whitecaps? so what the hell was your point? by your logic, I could argue that ketchup is better than mustard because I love peanut butter. No doubt your going to respond by saying travel costs are too high and that a national league at the level of ussfd-2 will never work completely proving your full of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted August 10, 2010 Share Posted August 10, 2010 Hmmmm... have you tried building a business plan for a professional team in a 12 team national league that pays it's players six figure salaries and draws 2,000 paying patrons to each game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juby Posted August 10, 2010 Share Posted August 10, 2010 let's do it shall we, and not mislead by over simpliying, if you had 2000 fans at a game you could generally be making $20 000 a home game (theirs expenses, but also sales of food and drink and a bit of merchandise(the reason why more teams might work out a bit if home games are earning more then travel is losing but if you can't keep the fans for 19 games then maybe not)), I don't want to over do it but this would turn into earning a low 6 figures on it's own. decent attendance could(of course I can't say it will) cover the wages, then you still have travel and few other expenses, thankfully theirs a few other ways to make money, sponsors and club links, if you had a few good sponsors (or maybe alot of minor sponsors, like the ad barriers put up around english pitches) you could probably cover yourself. In all honesty I am hoping though we could also find a few groups that just want to run a good football club and are willing to absorb like 50 000 in losses (easier said than done). Club links are fine, this would still be a feeder league, if tfc and the impact could both maintain those losses and still be apart of the league then it's great for everyone else cause those are good tickets on away games too. Maybe a couple of teams worldwide (maybe an mls team, hopefully a mexican teams) could be convinced to make a link (which would be easier when were producing more promising prospects) to get some extra cash and stability into the league. edit: the real weakness in my arguement is what if you still didn't get a decent amount of fans after doing all this, that interest isn't quite there...yet. I do have the advantage of time on my hand, it will work eventually unless soccer interest goes in decline. I'd like to think though that if all over canada there was a regional csl setup to get people aware of the csl's existance in their community, and you did a good job marketing this new league nationally, a maybe complex but good network of local tv stations showing the games and good level of play (I honestly think the usl second division's would be good enough (just in case theirs confusion I mean the usl league below ussfd-2)) then we could get and keep enough fans but I may be wrong here (I won't be eventually) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonovision Posted August 10, 2010 Share Posted August 10, 2010 Hmmmm... have you tried building a business plan for a professional team in a 12 team national league that pays it's players six figure salaries and draws 2,000 paying patrons to each game? I'm skeptical too Richard, but I think Juby's suggestion was that the entire wage budget would be low six figures, not that of individual players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juby Posted August 10, 2010 Share Posted August 10, 2010 I'm skeptical too Richard, but I think Juby's suggestion was that the entire wage budget would be low six figures, not that of individual players. damnit, I didn't even notice that, I thought he knew what I meant, that said, yes, everything I said in my post refers too low 6 figures TEAM salary (honestly hopefully just a few guys per team making like 25 000 grand a year, a small improvement in part time contracts and a little more money in youth. 25 000 isn't alot for raising a family (hopefully their not the sole bread winner) but its a pretty decent wage to get by living your dream)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted August 10, 2010 Share Posted August 10, 2010 OK, assuming it is possible to attract good enough players to satisfy your target market and meet your ticket sales requirement for the kind of wages you envisage, maybe that kind of arrangement can work in a current CSL type regional situation. There most games are accessible via reasonable bus trips and few if any overnight stays are required. Very different when you're trying to do it in a national league with teams stacked with part-timers fretting about time away from their 'real' jobs and where travel time (and cost) is much greater. That's why PDL and USL-2 operate in regionalised leagues, saves time and money and opens up opportunities for part timers. I dare say the same applies to the current CSL, how many CSL players don't need to hold down other jobs? Back in the days of the Vancouver 86ers and the old A-League that was a real problem. Often meant players had to quit the team becauser they could not risk losing their non-soccer jobs that were paying the bills. In an ideal world what you propose would be great but regrettably we don't live there. KPMG came to the same conclusion for the CSA after quite extensive study in 2004. I don't think the situation is too different now, indeed probably more difficult as the major Canadian markets are being swallowed up by the relatively established NASL/USL-1 and MLS. I don't mean to rain on your parade but the reality is that the chances of a successful domestic Canadian national professional league in the foreseeable future are slim at best no matter how hard we might wish for it. The only glimmer of hope may be if the USSF goes ahead with its proposal to restrict the number of non-USA players in whatever D2 league comes out of the current negotiations. The number being bandied about is 25% so in a 12 team league there would be not more than three non-USA based teams. If Puerto Rico is considered non-USA that leaves just two spots for Canada. Then what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted August 10, 2010 Share Posted August 10, 2010 Interesting bonds between Canada and Australia and KPMG. Time for a tale of two studies. The KPMG report was done in 1999 by a mid-level guy who had no clue about anything to do with soccer either before or afterwards. The Crawford Report was done by the retired Chairman of KPMG, the former captain of the Australian Men's team and TV analyst, the chairman of two large Australian corporations, a lawyer and academic and management consultant specializing in corporate governance, and the CEO of the Australian Sports Commission. Hence the reception and force with which they were received. Despite being done years after ours in 2003 the Crawford report has not only been acted upon but has completely reformed the entire Australian soccer system including the men's national professional league in 2005 and the women's in 2008. If we put that kind of professionalism and investment into a study I'd be at the front of the line to get an autograph and listen. But I'm nowhere even remotely close to basing my world view on the net result of a couple of weeks of work in the late 90s done by someone who doesn't even know the game or it's culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juby Posted August 10, 2010 Share Posted August 10, 2010 OK, assuming it is possible to attract good enough players to satisfy your target market and meet your ticket sales requirement for the kind of wages you envisage, maybe that kind of arrangement can work in a current CSL type regional situation. There most games are accessible via reasonable bus trips and few if any overnight stays are required. Very different when you're trying to do it in a national league with teams stacked with part-timers fretting about time away from their 'real' jobs and where travel time (and cost) is much greater. That's why PDL and USL-2 operate in regionalised leagues, saves time and money and opens up opportunities for part timers. I dare say the same applies to the current CSL, how many CSL players don't need to hold down other jobs? Back in the days of the Vancouver 86ers and the old A-League that was a real problem. Often meant players had to quit the team becauser they could not risk losing their non-soccer jobs that were paying the bills. In an ideal world what you propose would be great but regrettably we don't live there. KPMG came to the same conclusion for the CSA after quite extensive study in 2004. I don't think the situation is too different now, indeed probably more difficult as the major Canadian markets are being swallowed up by the relatively established NASL/USL-1 and MLS. I don't mean to rain on your parade but the reality is that the chances of a successful domestic Canadian national professional league in the foreseeable future are slim at best no matter how hard we might wish for it. The only glimmer of hope may be if the USSF goes ahead with its proposal to restrict the number of non-USA players in whatever D2 league comes out of the current negotiations. The number being bandied about is 25% so in a 12 team league there would be not more than three non-USA based teams. If Puerto Rico is considered non-USA that leaves just two spots for Canada. Then what? Well one problem is that I don't really think the regional leagues could get that many supporters, part of the sale is that the ticket is national, I don't want to be mean but I think theirs a difference between a ticket that sports regional cities and ticket that sports victoria, calgary winnipeg ottawa quebec city etc (it's not a huge difference but national representation is impressive, probably more impressive then most american markets in the usl second division even from our perspective, I'd rather see torono regina then toronto harrisburg) so if you agree with the regional plan, thats wonderful and would do a tonne on its own, but it will probably resemble the current csl but in your area unless your tremendously well backed or we pool our top teams. The fact of the matter is that all your complaints about the players position already happens, for less pay, it ensures alot more players give up, if we make a top division (and alot of regional teams below that making more player spaces) then fewer will have to give up as quickly, some may make it. The travel considerations are true but it just means the schedual is important, for example, you have 15 away games (regular season) your in calgary, 8 or 9 games are past winnipeg, 2 two week away trips where you play a game every 3 days but not having to travel to hard between games, it's not an ideal situation but it's doable. For the east teams going west (and for a western team going around the west) bus fatigue would probably be a factor (2 week away trip were you play 4 teams but spend half the time busing it). Also as for paying for all this travel, like I said if the basic ticket revenue was at a level that dealt with the wages, then the goal would be to get enough sponsors to get the travel and any other expenses taken care of(it might be cheaper to get a league bus (probably have to be a few)that switched teams when they finished one of their 2 week trips). What we'd be offering the players with this is an improvement, better pay, to play in a better (and hopefully by then better scouted) league for, your right, probably more committment. When a team comes a knockin, and you ask yourself, try and live my dream or move on, well for the teams part the offer will be better, and since they already have that problem they'll keep a few more players then they can now. also I think alot more players will join regional csl's if they see it going somewhere (national, where your in a much better position below ussfd-2 then the current csl is. and finally, and oddly enough to address your first point, their is a wonderful way to get the quality into the league, it could be seen as stunting developement by limiting domestic spots (but I think were better off having our kids crack a better league (coupled with the sheer number of regional spaces opening up) then being mildly isolationist to protect the spots), a 20 000 a year, 3 year contract sounds amazing to ALOT of good footballers all over the world, the money's not amazing but 3 years and you can apply for citizenship. if you did your homework you could field a strong team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted August 10, 2010 Share Posted August 10, 2010 Vic, the KPMG report for the CSA, although done as you assert by 'a midlevel guy who had no clue about soccer', reached the same conclusions as would have been reached had you done it yourself I am sure, based on the same remit. How would a deeper knowledge of soccer have affected the facts? You are comparing apples with oranges when referring to the Crawford report, of all people you should know that. And Juby, you're welcome to your opinion, I happen not to agree with you. A league such as you propose, if sufficient owners could be found and persuaded to ante up the millions required, would be gone in under five years. Try building a rational business plan and see how far you get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.