Expansion in CSL is ever coming?

[granemannrosa]

Since I found this forum (if you don't know me, I presented myself in the forum, so you gonna understand what I am talking about) I read about how CSL is planning to expand west, but is this will happen any time soon?

Any plans to merge with PCSL or something like?

Also, why don't CSL try to invite PDL canadian teams (like Toronto Linx) to join their league?

Cheers

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The CSL is basically a local Toronto league at this point and pretty much always has been going back to the 1920s when a predecessor called the National Soccer League started up. PDL teams are based on players from university teams rather than being semi-pro like the CSL so play under a very different format from the CSL. No merger is likely there. For decades there has been talk of the CSL expanding out west but beyond a very brief appearance by a team from Winnipeg in a league called the CNSL in the early 90s it has never happened and I strongly suspect that it won't happen any time soon. When a league is semi-pro with crowds of 200 or so being the norm and is essentially local in scope during its regular season, air travel to sort out an overall national champion can be very challenging financially. Since the 1960s American leagues like MLS have usually tended to be used by the handful of strongest Canadian teams at the fully pro level.

[soccerguy]

Well what I am hearing about this topic is that in a few years the CSL would love to have a Western Conference/Division. There would be no overlap play but their would be a National Championship with the winner of the East playing the winner of the West for the title. In this situation I think it could work and be a great thing for Canadian Soccer. I think a major sponsor would be crucial to help in the travel costs for the championship though to make it run smoothly.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

It has been "in a few years" for a long time.

[soccerguy]

Yes I understand that but it seems to me as this new regime is trying to strighten out the CSL and move it forwards, I guess we will have to wait and see how it plays out.

[Richard]

They're not the first to try either.

[Juby]

to be fair though they do seem to kinda be on the up for the last couple years, they've added a few teams, and apparentely their planning a major expansion soon ( my guess is that flushes out quebec and a bit of northern ontario which would set them up to hopefully start moving west) I think your jumping the gun on this, they may have been promising it for years but doesn't it seem a lot more likely today then like 4-5 years ago. And they added a few decent teams this year, so I don't think their really anything to complain about till next year if theirs no new teams.

Basically what I'm saying is that this is the silliest time to take a dump on the csl, they may not be going foreward fast enough for everybody but everything is improving. This thread looks like a eulogy, is it apt? (not really, the csl has been far worse off) is it helpful? (acting hopeless may seem cool but it'll just speed up decline by wrongly convincing people theirs no chance, despair makes you sound deep but it's completely misleading in this situation).

This type of attitude kinda pisses me off because it makes me a sarcastic ass: Why don't we just entrust our player developement to a few canadian teams in american leagues?, Why don't we through it all away cause it's not cool enough and then we can really complain when theirs almost nothing between USSF D2 and amateurs. We'll have excuses forever!, Why don't we just give up cause I can't sit through anything less then top professionals.

It just seems to me that their finally starting to get their ducks in a row (still a few years away), something everyone here would probably apprectiate long term and for our part were making their task harder by scoffing at them and acting like it's not worth it, treating it like a pariah of a league.

[Vic]

key phrase - "doesn't it seem a lot more likely today then like 4-5 years ago"

In 2005 we had no MLS teams, now we are almost three.

The soccer baby boom ages into educated fans.

Times change.

I like their one step at a time approach.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

When you have heard decades of the same propaganda emanating from the GTA and are familiar with the reality of what is being talked about it is very difficult to take the CSL seriously as being anything more than just another top local or provincial league on a par with the PCSL, AMSL, MMSL, LSEQ etc but Toronto's soccer community have always had higher aspirations than that for their local league in status terms hence names like National Soccer League or Canadian Soccer League.

In a continental scale country like Canada with a federal governance structure, there is no compelling need for amateur and semi-pro leagues, which are entirely regional in scope during their regular season to ever try to be anything more than that. In Australia, for example, the various semi-pro state leagues in each of the major cities don't have an end of year playoff between their champions to determine an overall champion. Being the NSW or Victoria champion is sufficient for people there.

Wonderful things are happening in Canadian soccer right now thanks to having access to the American league structure in the shape of MLS and the NASL. That is what is providing us with a genuinely national level of competition in pro soccer terms and the Nutrilite Canadian Championship comprised of clubs playing at that level is what provides us with a national champion for the CONCACAF Champions League. Let's not lose sight of that.

[VPjr]

As I mentioned the last time this topic was brought up (recently), the CSL is focused 1st and foremost on putting itself on the strongest possible footing here in its core market (Ontario and Quebec). This has been a very good season for the league and we we need to build on it.

The CSL is determine to provide a very high level of professional soccer in communities across the Province of Ontario and Quebec and we will work hard to be an important part of the player development landscape in Ontario (and Quebec possibly). If we do a good job, I'm sure there will be an appetite to extend a successful model to other parts of the country. If we don't get the job done, then we might have problems getting others to come on board.

Time will tell.

[Richard]

I still have not had anybody associated with the CSL explain what advantage there would be to groups beyond economically viable travel distances from the Ontario Quebec market involving themselves with the CSL. There already exist high level regional amateur/semi-pro leagues in other parts of Canada, few if any seem convinced they would benefit from paying any kind of fees to the CSL in Toronto. The CSL has courted the PCSL for years for example, they have never been able to show what advantage would be gained by the PCSL, a league that is thriving as an independent. Seems to me the APSL is doing just fine too.

[Juby]

When you have heard decades of the same propaganda emanating from the GTA and are familiar with the reality of what is being talked about it is very difficult to take the CSL seriously as being anything more than just another top local or provincial league on a par with the PCSL, AMSL, MMSL, LSEQ etc but Toronto's soccer community have always had higher aspirations than that for their local league in status terms hence names like National Soccer League or Canadian Soccer League.

In a continental scale country like Canada with a federal governance structure, there is no compelling need for amateur and semi-pro leagues, which are entirely regional in scope during their regular season to ever try to be anything more than that. In Australia, for example, the various semi-pro state leagues in each of the major cities don't have an end of year playoff between their champions to determine an overall champion. Being the NSW or Victoria champion is sufficient for people there.

Wonderful things are happening in Canadian soccer right now thanks to having access to the American league structure in the shape of MLS and the NASL. That is what is providing us with a genuinely national level of competition in pro soccer terms and the Nutrilite Canadian Championship comprised of clubs playing at that level is what provides us with a national champion for the CONCACAF Champions League. Let's not lose sight of that.

so your a self justified pessimist?

the need for semi pro leagues is obvious, player developement. (giving people a chance to play regularly at maybe a minor club in a real league for next to nothing instead of paying good money with a group of friends to play for pride alone, and other little things too, like having a decent coach, semi pro also looks a million times better on a footie resume then amateur experience)

We want the best level of competition our fans and business community will support and a national division would improve things dramatically, all the best semi pro teams together means their's a division above amateurs, and when the regional leagues get their level to semi pro hopefully this will have pushed the national division into being generally low level professional, it's a bunch of ifs and a long time frame but considering support seems to be on the rise fairly well but incrementaly, it seems more prudent to take time rather then force it now or give up.

I'm not saying dump a tonne of money on the csl before the fans are there, I'm saying it's improving, save your naysaying for when it's declining, don't give up on goals cause their 20 years away, we need to build some respectable clubs instead of hoping one day to just make a league out of nothing (and having everybody say "who?" when their new or unheard of team is announced.) or worse yet we never manage a real national league, then all the pessimists and people who are offended at the idea of canadians playing soccer will have plenty of **** to talk (something I can say from my youtube page is there is a tonne of people around the world, who freak out, get lividly angry at the idea of canadian soccer, it's so bizzare, someone from europe will post "CANADA SOCCER SUCKS, GO BACK TO HOCKEY YOU STUPID CANUCKS" in a video for a match between us and costa rica???).

The non connected western csl league is probably a good idea, after a few years see what the big teams are and maybe, in 5 -10 years we might 12 -20 teams that could afford the travel, had a couple thousand supporters and could hopefully (really hoping) afford to pay an average of like 20 000 a year for players (that's pretty doubtful but a few good sponsors, club links and decent support and it's possible to push for a basic full time setup.

[Alex D]

^ Juby, I love your enthusiasm for the CSL, but I think that it will always be 3rd division regional setup. Not that this is a bad thing, it's a very important stage. I just want the CSL to be the best it can while maintaining stability.

I want CSA D3 leagues across the country, but I do not care if it's the CSL or not. If the PCSL decides to step up to D3 level, then that's fantastic.

[Juby]

I'm not hoping for much else, I just want to improve that third tier, and maybe, just maybe, if some serious problems happen in ussf d2, try to push that next tier

[granemannrosa]

First of all, I want to say sorry to everyone cuz I could not put exacly what I want to ask.

When I ask if CSL is ever expanding it's not hoping that they will try to become a national league and merge with everybody eslse, but to do exacly what somebody said: have divisions in every state or region and then play to have the national champion.

My question is: would ever be possible to all this semi leagues join each other to do that? There is any relation between then?

CHeers

[ted]

If the PCSL decides to step up to D3 level, then that's fantastic.

I was under the impression that the PCSL has been at the D3 level for years.

Edit: OMG, I thought I would look it up. In trying to look stuff up I discovered that searching PCSL on the BCSA site brings up one document from 2005 and searching CSL brings up nothing on the CSA site. What a freaking joke.

[TFCRegina]

As I mentioned the last time this topic was brought up (recently), the CSL is focused 1st and foremost on putting itself on the strongest possible footing here in its core market (Ontario and Quebec). This has been a very good season for the league and we we need to build on it.

The CSL is determine to provide a very high level of professional soccer in communities across the Province of Ontario and Quebec and we will work hard to be an important part of the player development landscape in Ontario (and Quebec possibly). If we do a good job, I'm sure there will be an appetite to extend a successful model to other parts of the country. If we don't get the job done, then we might have problems getting others to come on board.

Time will tell.

Right now I would agree with that approach. Focus on Ontario and Quebec. However, an effort should be made to bring the PCSL into some kind of partnership on agreements of standards or something. Maybe use a joint brand...

This doesn't mean there needs to be a Champions Cup (costs would be prohibitive) but co-ordination in growth and standards could be a way to develop the semi-professional level of the game in the country.

Ultimately though, if the CSL is going to expand out west and in the Maritimes, it needs to succeed in the two biggest markets first.

I've also argued that putting the pro team in Edmonton was probably ill-advised for the NASL due to the strength of the CFL. To have successful futebol in this country we need to damage the CFL in the east. TSN gives a big TV deal but it's because of the eastern ratings, not the western ratings. The western teams sell more merch and tickets but the TV deal keeps the league afloat.

[TFCRegina]

First of all, I want to say sorry to everyone cuz I could not put exacly what I want to ask.

When I ask if CSL is ever expanding it's not hoping that they will try to become a national league and merge with everybody eslse, but to do exacly what somebody said: have divisions in every state or region and then play to have the national champion.

My question is: would ever be possible to all this semi leagues join each other to do that? There is any relation between then?

CHeers

The dream is to have regional futebol leagues. One in BC, One in the West (Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba), One in Ontario, One in Quebec and One in the Maritimes.

But the likelihood of his is very low within the next 10 years.

Canadian football (a type of American Football) competes with Canadian soccer in the West and prevents significant semi-professional and professional growth in that region of the country as Canadian Football is very popular. That accounts for approximately 7 million people (Canada has 33 million in total). Also, there is more empty space than anything else in that part of the country, with towns being very very far apart, so costs of transportation are high. I believe my home province of Saskatchewan has less than 1 person for every square km living there.

Then there are challenges in other provinces with getting crowds out to watch semi-professional futebol. Crowd sizes are 200 to 300 people, and awareness of the league is quite low.

However, Ontario and Quebec (currently using a single semi-professional league - The Canadian Soccer League) have high population density. This means that transportation costs are much lower and semi-professional futebol is much more viable.

I'm not too sure about the PCSL, but I hope that it's of the same standard as CSL.

And finally, the Maritimes (Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island) are the poorest provinces in Canada (other than Newfoundland which is isolated from the rest of the country). This, and probably geographic issues (transportation costs are higher) make it difficult for a league to succeed in those 3 provinces. However, I would say that New Brunswick and Nova Scotia could probably each have their own semi-pro leagues.

In the next 10 years, I think we will only see further development of semi-pro soccer in three of Canada's 7 provinces (Ontario, Quebec, British Columbia).

However, those 3 provinces account for approximately 67% of the Canadian population.

[Alex D]

I was under the impression that the PCSL has been at the D3 level for years.

The CSA this year has set standards for D3 semi-pro soccer in Canada. Currently the CSL is the only league to be sanctioned at this level. The PCSL is an elite amateur league. It's unofficially D3.5 ish

[Richard]

I read plenty of expressed desire for some kind of national alliance of regional leagues but still nobody has answered my question about what real benefits the CSL would bring to already existing, well established and autonomous regional leagues like the PCSL (which has been in existence for almost 80 years) other than a business model which as far as I can tell hasn't really been all that successful to date?

The only way any kind of national network of common leagues will happen is through a CSA led initiative and I don't see that happening in the foreseeable future. They just don't have the cajones to pull it off.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

so your a self justified pessimist?

the need for semi pro leagues is obvious, player developement.....

You have failed to address what I actually wrote. Did you bother to even read it before launching into this rant? How can you portray me as a pessimist when I pointed out that wonderful things have been happening in Canadian soccer at a genuinely professional level thanks to having access to USSF sanctioned leagues like MLS and the NASL? The CSL and the other elite local and provincial level leagues can provide a place for the U-18 teams of full-time pro level clubs to develop against adult level competition. Loan deals with NASL teams can help in future with players like Gabe Gala at the U-21 sort of level with PDL playing a role with players who have an NCAA scholarship. The pieces are already falling into place for a healthy pro soccer scene.

Beyond that I provided the example of Australia where there are semi-pro leagues in each of the major cities, which do a good job of developing players for the Hyundai A League, but make no attempt to determine a national combined overall champion because being the champion of NSW or Victoria is sufficient for people there at that level. There is no compelling need for the CSL to expand beyond the GTA for any of the things you want to see happening on player development to unfold. Leagues that are local in scope in continental scale federal countries can be organized just as easily at a provincial level with no attempt at national coordination.

I'll be interested to see if anyone can address Richard's point about what the CSL actually has to offer to PCSL clubs although his point about an 80 year history is a bit misleading given the current PCSL only dates back to 1995 and the VMSL also has a claim to the legacy of the PCSL that existed from 1930 to 1973. Can a league office operating out of the GTA really do a better job of dealing with the BC media and local sponsors than people based in lower mainland BC have been able to do in past? Is there any actual benefit to flying to the GTA for a set of end of season playoffs that are unlikely to receive significant mainstream media attention? If they don't do it in Australia why is there a need to do it in a Canadian context?

[Vic]

CSL expansion comes up a couple of times a year and you routinely appear in every single thread and say it will never happen. That makes you the village pessimist *on the topic* which is what he was referring to.

You prefer PDL, NCAA, USL, NASL and MLS. I prefer Provincial YSL's, CIS, and any attempt at national soccer development. Foreign leagues are governed in their best interests. Whether it's international caps on Canadians, mandated American roster spots, failure to release Canadians for international duty, whatever. I live in Canada and belong to a Canadian supporters group. I don't support any type of capitulation - government, economic or athletic.

A national league or network is simply a matter of time. And I support any and everyone anywhere in the country heading in that direction.

[Alex D]

I read plenty of expressed desire for some kind of national alliance of regional leagues but still nobody has answered my question about what real benefits the CSL would bring to already existing, well established and autonomous regional leagues like the PCSL (which has been in existence for almost 80 years) other than a business model which as far as I can tell hasn't really been all that successful to date?

The only way any kind of national network of common leagues will happen is through a CSA led initiative and I don't see that happening in the foreseeable future. They just don't have the cajones to pull it off.

The PCSL does not need to be taken over or answer to the CSL. I believe most pro-CSLers on here, including myself, just want to see a standardized level of play across the country. If the PCSL were to work towards CSA D3 sanctioning, I would be happy with that. Where CSL expansion comes in is areas of the country that do not have a league of that level.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

CSL expansion comes up a couple of times a year and you routinely appear in every single thread and say it will never happen. That makes you the village pessimist *on the topic* which is what he was referring to.

"Pessimism" presupposes that a lack of expansion by the CSL is an inherently bad thing. I have provided a concrete example of why that is not necessarily the case. Australian soccer operates just fine with the local semi-pro level of the sport being organized on an exclusively provincial/state basis. It appears that people with a deeper agenda based on opposition to Canadian involvement in USSF sanctioned leagues have latched onto this issue and that's a tangent I have no interest in pursuing. If there can be a shared league with the United States in something as fundamental to Canadian identity as hockey I find it strange that anyone would object to it happening in a soccer context especially after what has happened with TFC.

[Alex D]

"Pessimism" presupposes that a lack of expansion by the CSL is an inherently bad thing. I have provided a concrete example of why that is not necessarily the case. Australian soccer operates just fine with the local semi-pro level of the sport being organized on an exclusively provincial/state basis. It appears that people with a deeper agenda based on opposition to Canadian involvement in USSF sanctioned leagues have latched onto this issue and that's a tangent I have no interest in pursuing. If there can be a shared league with the United States in something as fundamental to Canadian identity as hockey I find it strange that anyone would object to it happening in a soccer context especially after what has happened with TFC.

Canadian teams in MLS - Not an issue

Canadian teams in NASL/USL - Not an issue, but those leagues are not the most stable. There seems to be a hope that if these league fail, we could cobble together our own D2 league

Canadian teams in PDL - Issue. The USSF itself realizes that the NCCA/PDL is not an effective route to develop soccer players. The only reason the NCCA "SuperDraft"® exists is because it's a source of free players for the notoriously stingy MLS. Why should we latch onto a broken system, because it's easy? That's a half-assed approach to player development. This is the level where we need a made in Canada solution, because the US does not have a one we can fall back on.