Artoo Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 Or they could "create" a similar championship for semi-pro teams (Note: A championship for pro teams already exists.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 ^ Great idea, why don't they do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 My guess, and this is pure speculation on my part, would be that the smaller provinces prefer to keep it amateur only as it enhances their chances of winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 ^ It always amazes me that the small provinces can trump good ideas because it doesn't serve their self interest when there are community clubs in Ontario with more membership than at least one (possibly 2) entire provinces. Maybe Oakville SC should get a vote at the CSA AGM considering they have a larger membership than PEI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorktonsoccer Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 quote:Originally posted by VPjr ^ It always amazes me that the small provinces can trump good ideas because it doesn't serve their self interest when there are community clubs in Ontario with more membership than at least one (possibly 2) entire provinces. Maybe Oakville SC should get a vote at the CSA AGM considering they have a larger membership than PEI Smaller Provinces trumping good ideas? That is idiotic. The whole amateur and professional debate has been going on for a very long time and I don't think us "smaller Provinces" had anything to do with it. The idea of a amateur championship has appeal to most people for obvious reasons. First, it limits the opportunity of teams "buying" a championship. Obviously some "amateur" teams that go to Nationals have ways of compensating players but nowhere near the level semi-pro teams would and therefore the chance of buying a championship is lessened. Second, by keeping it amateur I think the CSA is catering to the thousands of amateur players who play across the country and not the few hundred semi-pro players. Third, how much of a National Championship would it be if semi-pro teams were allowed? Obviously only BC, Ontario, Quebec and possibly Alberta would field teams. The other Provinces may be able to put together a semi-pro team but there would be problems finding those teams competition to play locally. It would be just as National as the CSL is. The idea of using an amateur competition to cater to a few semi-pro teams is the dumb idea and I would hope the CSA wouldn't waste their time on this? And on that topic, do you really think the CSA favors smaller Provinces? Hahaha, if you do, get your head out of your ass. The CSA is made up of people from the larger Provinces and therefore they inherently have the larger Provinces best interests in mind. I'm not complaining about this. Ontario has by far the most registered players and to treat Saskatchewan the same as them is idiotic. A very large amount of money that flows into CSA comes from teh bigger Provinces and they should get preferential treatment. Just don't complain that the smaller Provinces have some control over the CSA because it just isn't true. If there really was an interest for semi-pro teams to compete for a National Championship, why didn't the Open Cup or whatever it was called work? As for the idea of CSA arranging a separate National competition for semi-pro teams. Why? Again, CSA has limited resources, why waste it on a few teams. By their nature, shouldn't "professional" teams be able to organize this themselves if there really was an appetite for this type of National competition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 quote:Originally posted by VPjr ^ It always amazes me that the small provinces can trump good ideas because it doesn't serve their self interest when there are community clubs in Ontario with more membership than at least one (possibly 2) entire provinces. Maybe Oakville SC should get a vote at the CSA AGM considering they have a larger membership than PEI Wow, to both the inital speculation and your response to it. I trust there is a plethora of "small provinces standing in the way soccer in this country" that can be recited as a basis for either. I'll grant you Saskatchewan's power play (with thanks to PEI!) to replace Simoes with one of their own and the seemingly endless string of maritime based CSA Presidents, but perhaps there are other less obvious examples too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Yorktonsoccer "Teams "buying" a championship" are you serious? the only way a team can buy a championship is if they payoff the referee, who is the only one who can really change the outcome of a game at any time. We in Canada don't have that level of corruption yet because there isn't any serious money in play, if one day it becomes a big $$$$ business, then we would have to look into that possibility. If we take that possibility out of the equation, it leave us with the reality that to win championships you need first MONEY, second LUCK and third THE RIGHT GROUP OF PEOPLE WORKING TOGETHER. Now, according to your comment that the small provinces don't really contribute a lot of money or savvy into the professional development of soccer in the country and they are not interested either (I agree with you) therefore they should focus only in the amateur aspect of the game, leave the pro side of it to the provinces that bring the $$$$$ into the game (Ontario, Quebec and BC) and stay out of it for the good of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Gordon Wow, to both the inital speculation and your response to it. I trust there is a plethora of "small provinces standing in the way soccer in this country" that can be recited as a basis for either. I'll grant you Saskatchewan's power play (with thanks to PEI!) to replace Simoes with one of their own and the seemingly endless string of maritime based CSA Presidents, but perhaps there are other less obvious examples too? I made a comment that reflects my opinion that many of the small provinces can wield significant influence (more than the size of their registrations would justify, IMO), especially with the new-ish voting rules on the CSA board that were designed to ensure that a very small number of "big" provinces can't totally dominate the agenda. However, it is an error on my part to make it appear that smaller provinces are keeping semi pro teams out of the national championships. it was a bit of a flippant remark that was posted without much thought. I have no way of knowing if there is any truth to that. Nonetheless, I do believe that semi-pro teams should be permitted in the National Championship if they wish to participate. And to answer YorktonSoccer's question, the Open Cup was cancelled for reasons only the CSL knows for sure. It's my opinion that they want to be included in the Nutrilite competition and don't want to run a "competing" tournament. I might be wrong but it would not surprise me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorktonsoccer Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Ummmm, when I said buying a championship I meant they had enough money to recruit better players. My posts are long enough I didn't think I needed to explain the obvious. To be clear I will give an anology, who dominates the professional leagues in Europe? The big money clubs. Why do they dominate? Is it because they are lucky? No. Is it having the right group of people working together? I don't think so. You put the entire management group of Manchester United and put them in charge of Watford, my guess is they won't have the same success. The main reason is because of money. They can afford the best players. The same would apply if we allowed semi-pro teams into National competition. Obviously amateur teams would have a difficult time competing for local talent. Most of the best players would play for a semi-pro team to get the money. And the richer the semi-pro team, the better chance they have of winning because they can afford not only the top players, but possibly players from out of country who are strong as well. Please don't respond with examples of small teams beating bigger clubs. Of course it happens but the vast majority of the time, the richer clubs win. And Eric, as for smaller Provinces not being interested in the professional side of the game, that is not what I said. I think there are many people interested here but unfortunately population statistics obviously mean it is more difficult here. We currently have the CMISL running which was semi-pro league last year (this year it is questionable whether the players are paid or not). But it appears to be as much a pro league as the CSL is, if not better because there are 2 Provinces involved and they actually play "international" games. And get with the times, you should probably throw Alberta into the mix of big Provinces. They don't have a professional team yet but any thoughts of actually having some type of professional league in this country would obviously need them. You seem fixated on money, I think Alberta probably puts a large amount of money into the CSA as well. I will agree with your last point about keeping amateur separate because you prove my point. I was only responding to VPjr's opinion that semi-pro teams should be allowed in the "amateur" National competition. My whole point was to keep them separate. See we can agree, isn't that nice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Of course we can agree, you just supported my point! if you look at my post again, you'll notice "it leave us with the reality that to win championships you need first MONEY" see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Yorktonsoccer I will agree with your last point about keeping amateur separate because you prove my point. I was only responding to VPjr's opinion that semi-pro teams should be allowed in the "amateur" National competition. The problem with that line of argument is that it is billed as being the National Championship so there is no obvious reason why it should be amateur only. This whole amateur vs semi-pro thing goes back to the old notions of amateurism that used to surround the Olympics and is completely outdated in the 21st century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 ^ this is precisely what I was trying to get at with my comment, but I didn't say it nearly so well. thanks BBTB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I do not agree that the concept of amateurism is completely outdated. A professional sportsman by my definition is somebody who earns his living by working fulltime at one particular sport. A semi-professional is somebody who is paid a nominal amount to play a game but needs another paying occupation in order to make enough money to survive. An amateur is one who does something for the love of it without accepting any personal remuneration. In what way is this last concept no longer valid? I would agree that the notion of the amateur Olympic athlete became farcical because the concept was profoundly circumvented and abused by some countries/athletes and indeed there are very few Olympic athletes who meet the above definition of amateur and who can compete with the professional athletes. But that does not mean the concept of amateurism is completely outdated or invalid, not by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 What I see as being outmoded is the desire to rigidly separate the two. All that should matter in determining a team's status at the amateur/semi-pro level is what happens out on the field based on promotion and relegation. Whether players get a few bucks for playing the sport in top district and provincial leagues should be an internal matter for each club to decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bates Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I have watched the Nationals for the last 19-15 years and I am not sure where the notion of semi-pro teams not allowed comes from. Ont and Que have been sending semi-pro teams to this tournament for years. St Anthonys from Ottawa and the team from Que(name leaves me) that were in PEI and NL 5-6 years ago were clearly recruited and paid with goal of winning Nationals. Ont champs from last season that were eventually disqualified for their variuous rule breaks were not playing only for love of game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorktonsoccer Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 OK BBTB, it is billed as a National Championship because it is the National Championship for amateur competition. Using your logic that since it is called a "National Championship" then all teams can enter would mean TFC, the Impact and Whitecaps could enter as well (I know not likely but hopefully you get my point). How fun is that? There obviously have to be rules regarding amateur and professional and to allow some semblance of semi-professional would not work. The rules have to be black and white and the rules they have in place are just that. We all know that some teams skirt the rules and top players can and do get paid under the table but the CSA rules do the best in keeping semi-pro teams out. If you allow semi-pro teams where do you draw the line? What is semi-pro and what is professional? How much money in a team's budget is too much? Nationals seem to be working well and have worked well for many years, why change it drastically by allowing professionals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 ^ Well said, I agree 100%. What we need now is a pros and semi pros national tournament that will send the winner to the CONCACHAMPIONS and that should be the end of the problem. So hopefully the big three will stop ****ting their pants and allow semi pro teams to compete with them for a place in the continental cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Bates I have watched the Nationals for the last 19-15 years and I am not sure where the notion of semi-pro teams not allowed comes from. Ont and Que have been sending semi-pro teams to this tournament for years. St Anthonys from Ottawa and the team from Que(name leaves me) that were in PEI and NL 5-6 years ago were clearly recruited and paid with goal of winning Nationals. Ont champs from last season that were eventually disqualified for their variuous rule breaks were not playing only for love of game. It's an open secret that it happens so why not make it official? By way of a reality check for those who think CSL teams belong with the likes of Toronto FC and the Whitecaps rather than Ottawa St Anthonys this is what a CSL game typically looks like:- http://www.groundhopping.de/torontocroatia.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 LOL, this is like showing a pic of Varsity Stadium when the Linx were playing in it. This is not what a CSL game typically looks like and you know it, but I can see what you're trying to do. Toronto Croatia is one of the most successful clubs in Canadian soccer history. As far as I know they're going back to Centennial Stadium next season, which is where they've been playing forever. Hershey Centre was just an experiment that didn't work for them, so they came to their senses and be moving back where they belong, at least that's what I heard. Now since you found the time to post pictures of the CSL crowds, why don't you show the once from Serbia WE, Trois Rivieres, Italia Shooters or Portugal FC? I also remember when the Toronto Blizzard were playing in the NSL, the crowd you're showing in your pics, is huge compare to the ones the Toronto Blizzard had back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Eric LOL, this is like showing a pic of Varsity Stadium when the Linx were playing in it. This is not what a CSL game typically looks like and you know it, but I can see what you're trying to do. Toronto Croatia is one of the most successful clubs in Canadian soccer history. As far as I know they're going back to Centennial Stadium next season, which is where they've been playing forever. Hershey Centre was just an experiment that didn't work for them, so they came to their senses and be moving back where they belong, at least that's what I heard. Now since you found the time to post pictures of the CSL crowds, why don't you show the once from Serbia WE, Trois Rivieres, Italia Shooters or Portugal FC? I also remember when the Toronto Blizzard were playing in the NSL, the crowd you're showing in your pics, is huge compare to the ones the Toronto Blizzard had back then. In fairness, there are some matches that are sparsely attended and then there are some matches that are quite well attended (500-600 people) I certainly do hope that the rumour of Croatia going back to Centennial Stadium is true. Hershey has decent fields but there is no scoreboards/time clock and, to me, that is the minimum that a pitch must have to bu suitable for CSL play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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