Regs Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 I find it amusing that people back east think the PCSL is the highest standard out here in BC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 ^ Surely you don't think it's the Vancouver Metro Rumble League? How many PCSL games have you ever attended? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artoo Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Regs I find it amusing that people back east think the PCSL is the highest standard out here in BC. What is the highest standard in BC, than? Isn't PCSL a semi-pro league? Actually, I was also wondering if anyone has a list of PCSL championship winners from the earlier edition of the tournament. Is that info "lost"? :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Eric I don't know if you're from BC too, but you should understand that if the next national league in Canada doesn't include BC, it will still be call a national league around the world and no body will care if BC is part of it or not. Just like many provinces are not part of the NHL or the CFL etc. I'm from London, Ontario. Canada is a country based on a federal system and the CSA is run along those lines with the ten provincial associations having a very strong role. The federal level decides what is national based on input from all ten provinces, not the largest province unilaterally. Fact is that the CSL have not had CONCACAF entry for their teams even after years of lobbying where their Open Cup long weekend tournament was concerned and were not invited to participate in the new Canadian Championship by the CSA and CONCACAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Artoo I still say we should have Victoria United play Serbian White Eagles to settle this once and for all :-). Or alternatively... I dare both the CSL and PCSL to be the first league to include Winnipeg :-). Your best bet for a pro team is USL-D1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Eric There's more to Canada soccer wise than BC Richard, believe it or not. I get your point and I seriously believe that it was a lucky moment for the CSL when somebody at FIFA decided to select the CSL as the national league. I honestly believe they went through some kind of minimum requirements to select national leagues for every country, obviously to them the CSL fulfill those requirements. Now Richard, since they (FIFA) decided to select the CSL as our national league and showed that Canada at list has one instead of leaving a blink space in that section, why don't you work towards making sure the CSL becomes (according to your views) a true national league with the inclusion of BC and other provinces in the west, instead of constantly putting stones on the way of progress. Believe it or not Richard having a national league included in the FIFA website IS PROGRESS since we didn't have one ever before. Please Richard if you love the sport (and I know you do) put your personal grudge against the CSL aside, stop spending money in long distance phone calls to Zurich and work towards unity and progress, so soccer can become once and for all the professional game we all hope to enjoy in Canada. Thank you. ^ BS. They likely pulled the description from a Wikipedia entry. I'll join the Western rebels and state that the CSL is NOT a national league. It's not a professional league. It's not a Canadian league. Some of the teams are named after f*ing countries in Europe. I mean who are you trying to kid here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarnCherry Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 After reading this discussion I have come to the conclusion that Eric's head is made of wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regs Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 quote:How many PCSL games have you ever attended?Probably around 40, maybe 50 games. Not that it matters, I mean, that has got to be 40 -50 times more than the easterners who think the PCSL is the highest standard. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead After reading this discussion I have come to the conclusion that Eric's head is made of wood. Hey Crapperhead, long time no see. I knew that sooner or later you were going to show up with some ignorant line.......... and here you are. Good for you at least you're not letting us think that you got any smarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 This has to be one of the dumbest threads i've had the (dis)pleasure of reading through. Not hard to see how we got where we are today where some people are just stuck in their way of doing things. In my opinion having a league that's even semi-profesional is a step up from what we're seeing elsewhere in Canada. Does that justify any kind of CSL "franshise fee"? no thanks! Only to the extent it's used to ensure that the team has the necessary capital to operate within the league. Getting some of these guys paid (even if it's not enough to make a living) is a great start imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarnCherry Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Eric Hey Crapperhead, long time no see. I knew that sooner or later you were going to show up with some ignorant line.......... and here you are. Good for you at least you're not letting us think that you got any smarter. A "thick" and "dense" wood at that. Suitable for a gormless twit as yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 The pro and amateur stuff is a red herring. Either way teams will typically train two evenings a week to prepare for a game on the weekend. Players don't suddenly become better because they can be paid money openly rather than under the table and it is worth remembering that some CSL teams don't even do it in reality. The best thing that could happen in southern Ontario is a proper promotion and relegation league structure like they have in Australia where the state level leagues are concerned. There is no reason to have a franchise based structure when there is no entry draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 ^ I don't know of one single team that practice only twice a week in the CSL, everybody practices minimum 3 to 4 times a week. I really don't understand where you get your information from? An other fact you got wrong is that not all CSL teams pay their players, in fact they all do. Even though some clubs call themselves "amateur" they still pay their players under the table. Obviously there isn't an other league in Canada with these characteristics, that's why I suppose FIFA selected the CSL to portrait as the national league, simply because it is the closest thing to the real thing in Canada. I do agree though with your comment about a league with a promotion and relegation structure like they have in Australia, that will make the CSL 100% the real thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 There are two leagues in Canada that have fully professional teams with players who have soccer as their primary income source namely MLS and USL-D1. The teams in those leagues were selected by the CSA and CONCACAF to contest the Canadian Championship which is Canada's only professional level national championship. Beyond that there are provincial and district level leagues, which are typically participated in as a hobby during spare time off regular 9 to 5 jobs. Whether players get a token payment or not doesn't make a huge difference to how the elite clubs approach the game and there really isn't much difference in playing standards between top Ontario Cup teams and CSL teams. The Open Cup tournament proved that, which may help explain why it was scrapped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard there really isn't much difference in playing standards between top Ontario Cup teams and CSL teams. The Open Cup tournament proved that, which may help explain why it was scrapped. The Open Cup was not suspended because some of the top amateur teams in the country are pretty much on par quality wise with the typical CSL side. That's the risk you take hosting an open cup event...anyone can win on any given day. I think it is no coincidence that the Open Cup was suspended at more or less the same time that it became clear that the CSA had organized a club championship for Impact, Whitecaps and TFC to compete in. I remember them using phrases like "we have to evaluate the relevance of the Open Cup" in light of the creation of the Nutrilite Championship. To me, the open cup is still very relevant but I think it needs to be done on a much bigger scale and in conjunction with the various provincial associations and the CSA so it can be a truer test to determine which club is the best Tier 2 side in the country. If there is a will there is a way.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard There are two leagues in Canada that have fully professional teams with players who have soccer as their primary income source namely MLS and USL-D1. The teams in those leagues were selected by the CSA and CONCACAF to contest the Canadian Championship which is Canada's only professional level national championship. Beyond that there are provincial and district level leagues, which are typically participated in as a hobby during spare time off regular 9 to 5 jobs. Whether players get a token payment or not doesn't make a huge difference to how the elite clubs approach the game and there really isn't much difference in playing standards between top Ontario Cup teams and CSL teams. The Open Cup tournament proved that, which may help explain why it was scrapped. For a lot of kids, that "token" payment makes the difference between having to go work a part-time job or focus on soccer. Sorry, but when there's money on the line, things operate differently than your run of the mill men's league. Canadian soccer at the lower levels highly lacks incentives. The evidence is pretty clear that it's producing a better quality product than if these guys were purely amateur. Also, we'd pretty much all hold out hope that salaries would gradually creep up over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artoo Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard There are two leagues in Canada that have fully professional teams with players who have soccer as their primary income source namely MLS and USL-D1. The teams in those leagues were selected by the CSA and CONCACAF to contest the Canadian Championship which is Canada's only professional level national championship. Beyond that there are provincial and district level leagues, which are typically participated in as a hobby during spare time off regular 9 to 5 jobs. Just to remind you, in the early 70s teams from the NSL (at least related to the new CSL) did represent Canada at the CONCACAF champion's cup tournament. Actually, Serbian White Eagles were one of the two teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 As I recall when the Nutrilite championship was first announced there was some reference to consideration being given at some future date to bringing in the CSL champion but I suspect this will only be considered if and when the CSL operates in more than just Ontario with one team in Quebec and is a CSA sanctioned league. Until then the CSL remains something of an orphan league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 quote:Originally posted by ag futbol Sorry, but when there's money on the line, things operate differently than your run of the mill men's league. Canadian soccer at the lower levels highly lacks incentives. There sometimes is money on the line in the top run of the mill men's leagues in Ontario. There sometimes isn't in CSL games. Have you ever actually watched a CSL game? I suspect you would find it a major let down if you did. quote:Originally posted by Artoo Just to remind you, in the early 70s teams from the NSL (at least related to the new CSL) did represent Canada at the CONCACAF champion's cup tournament. Actually, Serbian White Eagles were one of the two teams. The NSL in the 70s was a very different kettle of fish. It operated very much at arms length from the OSA and regularly drew four figure crowds and had top clubs who bordered on being genuinely professional. Players were regularly brought over from Europe and paid big money. From time to time a team in the CSL tries to do that kind of thing for a season or two but overall today's CSL is probably not that much different from your top amateur league in Winnipeg. quote:Originally posted by Richard Until then the CSL remains something of an orphan league. It will be interesting to see what happens when/if the new semi-pro league in Quebec that was mentioned on here recently starts up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag futbol Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard There sometimes is money on the line in the top run of the mill men's leagues in Ontario. There sometimes isn't in CSL games. Have you ever actually watched a CSL game? I suspect you would find it a major let down if you did. 1) yes i have 2) feel free to provide specific examples of those other men's leagues. If you mean somehow those men's league players are geting paid while the CSL counterparts aren't. I'm sure what your talking about when it comes to financial incentive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPjr Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 BBTB...did you attend any CSL matches this year or last? I attended 8 CSL games last season (various teams) and only one match failed to live up to expectations. Overall, CSL soccer is good quality soccer. The best live soccer match I watched all season in 2008 was North York Astros vs TFC Academy at Lamport. Awesome match...I wish I could say I enjoyed the live experience at TFC matches as much as I enjoyed that match. The 2nd best live game was also a CSL match (actually, it was the CSL Final between Serbians and Trois Rivieres)... If you go in with appropriate expectations, any soccer match can be enjoyable. The MLS presents itself as the top echelon of professional soccer in North America yet I go to TFC matches and go home disappointed with the quality of soccer on display on many afternoons/evenings. Sometimes, I do feel I got to watch a good soccer match, but its very hit and miss. When I go to CSL matches, I'm there to watch good, up and coming players. Fortunately, in every game, there's always a few promising players to focus in on. For me, that is the attraction of CSL. PDL offers the same attraction. I'm curious to know why you seem so sour on CSL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 Given those payments are not supposed to be made, ag futbol, I am not going to spill all the details on here but I have heard from reliable sources of at least one top amateur team in London who allegedly used to give their coach a large sum to distribute as he saw fit amongst the players (not London Portuguese or AEK) and have heard a few stories about what top amateur players can get that way in the Toronto area as well. I once pointed a CIS player from British Columbia I played on an indoor team with one year in the direction of a couple of teams in the London area when he asked me who I thought might pay him under the table and I eventually got a thank you email saying everything had worked out very well for him. I've even heard of payments being made in an over-35 masters league, for what it's worth. In a London context it has been common knowledge in my experience in soccer circles that some elite amateur players have been getting paid to play at a time when there were players on London City's roster who were not getting a dime. I've heard the details on that from a number of different people who have played for City over the years. Unfortunately now that the large crowds the NSL used to be able to pull in back in the 70s are long gone the franchise structure of the CSL is a way for people with a bit of money to buy themselves a top soccer team in status terms who would be unable to get there if a promotion and relegation system were in place. Problem is they usually don't have the money or desire to do what the Ottawa Wizards did by trying to create a genuinely pro set up. The lack of promotion and relegation is a recipe for mediocrity and stagnation, basically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 quote:Originally posted by VPjr I'm curious to know why you seem so sour on CSL? I'm looking forward to seeing what FC London can achieve in PDL. Does that answer your question? My take on the CSL is that they should be honest about what they are (i.e. the top Toronto league) but that never appears to be enough to satisfy the egos of the people in the GTA so there wind up being continual half-assed attempts to include teams from elsewhere that never wind up working for any sustained length of time because sufficient allowance isn't made for the travel difficulties faced by non-Toronto teams. This has been ongoing for 80 years if the NSL is factored in and it is a similar picture with the OSL as well. A city of 5 million people should be able to have a very good local league like Sydney and Melbourne do in Australia and there is nothing wrong with being just that, local, if players are amateur/semi-pro and are holding down regular jobs as well. I strongly suspect the New South Wales and Victorian Premier Leagues are higher quality than the CSL despite not having any delusions about being national in scope. Leave the national level stuff complete with franchises and no promotion and relegation etc to PDL, USL-D1 and MLS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 ^ So.......... you're from BC right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 I've already told you where I am from in Canadian terms. I'm Scottish originally, for what it's worth. I have a bit more understanding of western alienation and Quebec nationalism after participating in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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