soccertaxi Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Vic If you're talking about making our national teams better, that's another story. The Manchester United's and Barcelona's and Santos of this world put all their focus into the top 1-2%. Nothing else even exists for them. Now, what do you know that they don't? http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/wayne-rooney-the-making-of-a-legend-421404.html The only thing that I know about the Man U's of this world is that their primary reason for being is to make money for their owners and shareholders. It would not make sense for them to do anything but to cherry pick and develop the surest bets out there. As a National Governing, provincial or regional body for a sport it seems to me that you are missing the mark if you only focus on excellence for that 1-2% living in larger centres that are lucky enough to be identified at the ripe old age of 8 or 9???? The socialist in me hopes for opportunities for advancement for a greater number of kids who have the desire to improve. I still think that we need to teach the basics better, even in recreational soccer. But, who said anything about unskilled moms and dads running professional skill development programs...in the DDCs in BC these programs are run by B provincial coaches and most of those coaches started out with those weekend courses and some soccer background...they are not all elite level former players but some are amazing motivators and knowledgeable coaches nonetheless. Not all moms and dads are morons who are incapable of learning, many have elite and athletic backgrounds in other sports and a good part of coaching theory is transferrable from one sport to another. Our soccer culture is developing and these kids now playing will soon become the future coaches of tomorrow. What's wrong with making them more skilled even if they don't go on to Provincial team or National Team? Every sport I have ever been involved with always strives to improve basic skills at the grassroots level as the foundation on which all other programs, recreational and elite, are to be built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachRich Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 ^ I agree too. To provide a foundation is we need to have bigger & professionally run clubs that are cradle to grave w/ a real basic membership programing & choices to advanced paid programs. We have way too many small community clubs that because of their size are restricted by revenues to be able to service the players. Clubs should be the size of Districts to generate the revenue needed to service the players. I'm for a free market system of clubs where the best clubs run the show. Clubs should be able to offer programing for both Rec & High Performance but they need to be real clubs to develop not only the sport but a culture of the sport. Time to stop babysitting & killing kids by providing a club structure/model so families can grow up in these clubs generation after generation. To connect these clubs there needs to be a dual (Rec & High Performance) development pathway/structure & model. This dual pathway connects clubs top to bottom is the only way to go. At the bottom we need larger & professionally run cradle to grave clubs. Otherwise the kids will never make it out of Grassroots U6-U10 to Youth U11 to U18 where they should be id'ed & able to choose the best pathway to above for themselves. Having these larger more professional clubs lets development be more standardized & professionally run over a larger geo footprint. Making a more effective dual pathway in a model where players can be id'ed for PT, NT or Pro Clubs Basically today we have a foundation that is too wide in footprint & weak due to the lack of professionalism where we need a foundation that is narrower & professionally run. Don't need the PSO or CSA to do this but volunteers would have to shift their power to from communities in maybe city wide clubs that are professionally managed & governed by people that have the experience. Btw, I thought I was the only one that used "killed" w/ not developing, id'ing & turning kids off the sport. Too much of this goes on stems from the board room from folks that have never played the sport or let alone any other sport in there life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccertaxi Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Richard ^ Vic, I agree with you 100% on this. We need avenues for these kids to be identified and developed at not extra cost to their parents in order to keep the opportunities open to all players no matter what their socio-economic status. Also, scouting should continue at all youth levels with places in the professional club academies and/or NTCs subject to constant competition. The kids have to understand that if they don't continue to cut it they will be gone and replaced by somebody else. This is the real world of elite, professional sport. I agree with this scouting business at a later age...I just vehemently disagree with subjecting kids to this type of pressure at 8,9...a little too young for the real world of elite professional sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 You just killed Wayne Rooney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Ault Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 ^Nobody is saying you have to put the 8,9 year olds under pressure but if we do want to compete at the elite level we do have to identify them and let them train, PLAY and compete (in best sense of the word) against other better players. If you take the results and winning out of the equation but let the higher skilled, more driven player compete and play with others of the same mind and talent things will get better in a hurry. Taking a very talented 9 year old and saying she has to stay and play with other nine year olds who are obviously not as talented or driven as her because it is good for the team or it will help us win our local league is to me way more damaging to that player then maybe taking her up a year or into a group of similar players and letting her maximize her talent whether she is nine or 19... The tendency here in Canada in my opinion in sport and education especially is to teach and move everyone to the middle like we are painted and created by the same brush - sorry not so - some players are better then others (some significantly) when they are 8, 9 and 10 and they should not be punished for it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccertaxi Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Vic You just killed Wayne Rooney. lol...maybe...we'll never know will we? But I can't help thinking about how many other potential Rooneys might have been burnt out in that club system with too much pressure too early...to the professional club system it doesn't really matter how many candles you burn as long as one stays lit and makes you money. As a nation wanting to develop soccer players I'm not sure I want to go the way of the stage mothers who believe that their kids will never become beauty queens if they don't start pageants at 5. This path has obviously worked out well for Rooney, I just don't think that this is the only path or the best path for our country, geography and soccer system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Bill Ault ^Nobody is saying you have to put the 8,9 year olds under pressure but if we do want to compete at the elite level we do have to identify them and let them train, PLAY and compete (in best sense of the word) against other better players. If you take the results and winning out of the equation but let the higher skilled, more driven player compete and play with others of the same mind and talent things will get better in a hurry. Taking a very talented 9 year old and saying she has to stay and play with other nine year olds who are obviously not as talented or driven as her because it is good for the team or it will help us win our local league is to me way more damaging to that player then maybe taking her up a year or into a group of similar players and letting her maximize her talent whether she is nine or 19... The tendency here in Canada in my opinion in sport and education especially is to teach and move everyone to the middle like we are painted and created by the same brush - sorry not so - some players are better then others (some significantly) when they are 8, 9 and 10 and they should not be punished for it.... I absolutely agree that players should not be pigeon-holed on a purely chronological basis, it should all be based on skill level and physical/mental ability. If a 9 year old can be competitive in a team of 11 year olds, that's where he/she ought to play routinely. In the academic world we are constantly looking to stretch the brightest kids, why not also in the field of sports? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachRich Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 In Canada I don't see us having the Pro Club (players making a living in the trade) system like the UK as not every city can afford to have a Pro club. Even those Pro clubs we have in Canada I doubt that there are many players making a liveable wage. I see amateur clubs being professionally run for those who want to make the game a lifestyle choice as Rec, High Performance or go for their dreams to NT & Pro in a cradle to grave dual pathway club. These clubs connect to the few Pro Clubs we have in Canada & the PTC/NTC's so the top developed or gifted players (the 2%) can branch off away from the club. The other 98% stay in the club to play Rec or High Performance to carry on building the club & it's culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trillium Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 Soccertaxi.. I am not sure how long or what your involvement is in sport be it soccer or another, but your view which is often the dominant one in community clubs leads to failure of individual players and of the overall quality of soccer in Canada as a sport. If we dont concentrate our players in the system and culture we have .. that is to find ways only the top one percent of natual atheletes play the game with the best coaches and against the other one percenters we shall never ever produce top players. This does not mean the general level of the game will not improve running the current types of programs, what is needed is for the CSA to create one model of development accross the country and empower the clubs to get to the job. What happens in BC should be the same as in Ontario or PEI, There are some very simple truths to sport and soccer in Canada. 1. Its familys who pay for development of elite athletes, not the state or any Volunteer club organisation. 2. We lack talent id programs in soccer that are systemic and competent. 3. Too many dump on the community or volunteer coach and dont realize that they are good coaches, the reality is we just dont give anyone the pay they deserve to be a coach of youth. Sports who do have professionalized coaches ( see figure skating ) do much better then soccer internationally. 4. Most people hired by the CSA as national technical directors have no true experience in the community clubs and therefore dont have a proper view of the issues faced by such clubs. Therefore they fail when they develop concepts or programs to improve the game. 5. Too many clubs / districts / leagues come up with various marketing names for different levels of play to hoodwink parents into thinking little johnny or mary is playing elite or gold or silver or premier .. its all a crock we should have one national naming convention defined by the CSA that reflects three possible levels of play at any age. Recreational representing 99 percent of all teams/players. Competitive representing 1 percent of all teams/ players. Non - amateur So Johnny at nine plays recreational in his club. At twelve he might play U12 competitive against other clubs, in programs with paid coaching staff, in clubs who only field competitive teams within promotion relegation leagues where Johnny is selected by scouting or try outs. Or remain recreational playing inside his club if its big enough or with other clubs in geographic recreational leagues. So accross Canada based on 600,000 thousand indivdual players, some six thousand would be competitive players, or some three hundred teams based on two year age groups.. u12, u14, U16, U18 and Open. That effectively means 60 teams at each age group, or thirty teams per sex... If you look regionally now at the top teams at various age groups you probably get ten teams in Ontario .. six in BC and Quebec..and a sprinkling of others in other cities. It would also encourage the Provinces to build the base bigger to qualify for more teams in the top competitive level. If you think its to few teams you change the percentage to 2 percent and you double your teams, which you may need to do in certain regions because of population density. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccertaxi Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Richard I absolutely agree that players should not be pigeon-holed on a purely chronological basis, it should all be based on skill level and physical/mental ability. If a 9 year old can be competitive in a team of 11 year olds, that's where he/she ought to play routinely. In the academic world we are constantly looking to stretch the brightest kids, why not also in the field of sports? I agree with you both in this...it isn't a problem in BC to my knowledge...players regularly get exemptions to play up if they are of exceptional ability. I know of kids who have played more than one age group up. Is it a problem elsewhere in the country? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 Check it out: bye-bye Japan: http://www.fifa.com/u17womensworldcup/matches/round=249940/match=300052915/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachRich Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 I followed the Matchcast & was shocked to she them exit. The # of fouls may have told the story of a punishing physical game by the Lionesses at 15 Vic do you have a feed for the USA game? Japan (JPN) Statistics England (ENG) 33 Shots 17 12 Shots on goal 6 2 Goals 2 3 Fouls Committed 15 15 Fouls Suffered 3 10 Corner kicks 1 3 Free kicks 0 0 / 0 Penalty Kicks (Goals/Shots) 0 / 0 4 Offsides 3 0 Own goals 0 0 Yellow cards 0 0 Second yellow card and red card 0 0 Red Cards 0 39 Actual playing time 27 60% Possession (%) 40% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trillium Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 quote:Originally posted by soccertaxi I agree with you both in this...it isn't a problem in BC to my knowledge...players regularly get exemptions to play up if they are of exceptional ability. I know of kids who have played more than one age group up. Is it a problem elsewhere in the country? Why would you need an exemption ? It is a problem many clubs make a rule you cant play up .. so they hold top players down so the coach at lower level keeps her talent and does not let the player advance. Its common. And your statement they get permission.. shows there is restriction in place in BC too... There should not be and it should be encouraged play up .. unlimited permanently or any time for any number of times on a higher age group team in your club. So u12 mary can play up on U14 team as much as she wishes and is needed by the club to assign her to higher age division then her natural age division. I will bet you cant do that in BC or indeed anywhere in Canada. Our rules based on being fair .. limit movement upwards by age and development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 Sorry can't find a USA feed anywhere, if I can I'll post it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 Just found this but can't try out yet... quote: Here are the direct link to the US vs. Korea game (after you download and install octoshape---->http://www.ppnba.com/down/octosetup.exe ): http://www.ppnba.com/en/666.html or http://www.zhibowu.com/Channel/376.htm Second link works fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccertaxi Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Trillium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachRich Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 My experience is that most clubs will have a policy on playing up to avoid issues w/ families & to insure the players development is guided appropriately. The policy would be managed by the clubs Tech Director or a Tech Committee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 < So if I understand you correctly, Mary and her parents can decide at any point that she can play up for as long as she wants to...??? > She can only play up if she is good enough to be selected for the older age group team in competition with all other players trying out for that place, irrespective of age. It is not a given that she will be selected if she or her parents decides she should play up. This of course only if club, district and provincial rules allow for playing up which most provinces, including BC, don't as a general rule as far as I am aware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Ault Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 quote:Originally posted by CoachRich My experience is that most clubs will have a policy on playing up to avoid issues w/ families & to insure the players development is guided appropriately. The policy would be managed by the clubs Tech Director or a Tech Committee. Wow! Soccer nirvana. My experience is that we have three page policies to avoid making or justifying technical decisions in other words to take the easy way out from an administrative pov. It almost has nothing to do with insuring the players development is guided properly - if it was why would we need a policy??? If the player is good enough and need the challenge to develop further and fully they play up if they are not they do not. That's not policy that's called doing what is best for the development of the individual athlete and it is not always a popular decision within club soccer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachRich Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Bill Ault Wow! Soccer nirvana. My experience is that we have three page policies to avoid making or justifying technical decisions in other words to take the easy way out from an administrative pov. It almost has nothing to do with insuring the players development is guided properly - if it was why would we need a policy??? If the player is good enough and need the challenge to develop further and fully they play up if they are not they do not. That's not policy that's called doing what is best for the development of the individual athlete and it is not always a popular decision within club soccer. It is what you say but it's also papered for a process carried out by experienced TD or HC. When the questions are asked by the players family or another players family & etc, the reasons for the decision are straight forward & transparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Interesting comment from coach Lois Fidler on her selection of Lucy Bronze, the England U17 player who marked Mana Iwabuchi out of the game: "We look for players who are physically and technically able, who have good awareness and a good psychological strength." I would say that's a pretty good summation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Ault Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 ^and almost 50% of the English line-up is "playing up".... [)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 I've seen a lot of playing up issues. My take, FWIW. You never apply generic rules, because all kids and situations are different. You have to look at emotional and physical maturity, intelligence, motivation and drive, how old and how far up, who is on the coaching staff, what role will the player have on the team, is the family supportive, etc. And there is usually always an external reason you've never come across before. The bottom line is put the decision on the right people, and not a best guess at a set of rules that probably don't apply in even 50% of the cases anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 "We look for players who are physically and technically able, who have good awareness and a good psychological strength." Notice the focus on mental skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trillium Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 quote:Originally posted by soccertaxi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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