MLS effect on development

[DigzTFC]

Over the last two years I've been reading a lot about the state of Canadian soccer. Within the last two years, there has been some significant headway made with regard to the professional game. However, there are some stories or underlining themes that need to be brought to forefront.

One particularly that comes to mind is Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver's infrastructure. While all these teams will likely be in the MLS one day, there is something more important beyond that. Their deep pockets and committment to development. More than that, Montreal inclusion of Liverpool's owner, Toronto's possible purchase of Leeds United, and Steve Nash's dream of Tottenham (maybe he can convince Kerfoot, but a stretch, I know). Imagine three Canadian MLS teams will stong ties/ownership to professional clubs in the EPL. Two of which are very realistic. We would have young Canadian players being trained by some of the most storied clubs in the EPL. Knowledge transfer and player transfers could be a great asset for the Canadian national team.

On a completely different note, what will happen to the USL with the stronger clubs vying for MLS spots? If I had my way, I would make the USL MLS 2 without relegation. It would be a feeder league much like NBA development league or the AHL. Here's the kicker though, MLS 2/the USL can have players playing in it without losing their NCAA eligibility. It will entice young players to try their luck at professional soccer without relinquishing their possibility of a free college education. MLS can have two drafts similar to MLB (high school and college).

Also, the Erin Mills and TFC issues are extremely important. Will TFC develop the talent pool further or just pick and choose from the best? Same for Vancouver and Montreal? It would be great for development schools to have pools of players and MLS/USL teams have their own, thus growing the pool, not just moving it around.

Thoughts?

These are ran

[DoyleG]

Then how do you persuade investors to join such a venture?

[youllneverwalkalone]

quote:Originally posted by DigzTFC

Also, the Erin Mills and TFC issues are extremely important. Will TFC develop the talent pool further or just pick and choose from the best? Same for Vancouver and Montreal? It would be great for development schools to have pools of players and MLS/USL teams have their own, thus growing the pool, not just moving it around.

Thoughts?

The one community club you mention is a bit of an exception I would say in terms of successfully bringing players to Europe. Even then, Andrew Ornoch would have found his way regardless because he has talent and he has a European passport. By and large, the effect of having three clubs at the top NA level with academies (though we've heard nothing from Montreal on this front) will be to provide an elite developmental opportunity to 60 or so kids, many of whom might otherwise be forced to give up the game at that level due to lack of passports, family abroad, etc.

[DigzTFC]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Then how do you persuade investors to join such a venture?

For USL owners? Not sure on the question. Similar to AHL, the MLS 2 or USL teams would be affiliated with an MLS club. That could mean the MLS club is a part owner. The younger players trying their luck and developing in MLS2/USL, so their will be quality players, and these players will not be paid to keep their amatuer status. Rounding out a roster, cheapening the clubs expenses. USL cap can remain the same. The investors are already their and MLS can bring the USL under a single entity to help these clubs.

If the USL doesn't affiliate itself with the MLS, it is running the risk of too many teams folding. The real problem right now is that the reserve league in MLS plays 12 games or something...how are you suppose to develop with that. Or on the other hand, why is TFC Academy U-18 playing in the CSL. I think their skill would be better served against USL opponents. In other countries, young talent is playing against highly skilled opponents. You're only as good as your competition really. Its a model that forces a high level of development.

[Canuck Oranje]

There are a couple of key flaws in your assessment.

One, MLS is a single entity concept which means if MLSE buys an EPL team, it would be separate investment with no real links to the MLS franchise. TFC players are under contract to MLS. That fact also complicates the USL/MLS-2 idea you have.

Two, MLS under its current structure will help development in Canada but in more limited way than first thought because it needs to rely on a network of amateur clubs to supply young raw talent. Unlike densely populated European countries, Canada has geography to deal with. It is simply not cost effective to bring all the 14 year old talent with potential to three major cities. The overall talent level is not bad in Canada at U12 compared to other countries. It is way behind at U16. The MLS will do very little in raising the overall talent level being played at the U-16 level across Canada. The best systems around the world are still able to collect late blooming talent into the professional side of the sport and still do. On top of that, there is not enough individual club influence over financial return in the MLS model.

A side note on EPL: My sense of the EPL is that the only way that it can continue to be sustainable is by continuing to expand its fan base into Asia/Middle East/North America, etc. Most of the big clubs are showing huge losses. Europe is in a slow economic growth mode and without new money, some of the big clubs will likely collapse. That's more of an NASL model but only time will tell how things will turn out for the EPL.

Incidentally, the Saputo family is far more wealthy than George Gillet, but may not be as willing to spend it frivolously. Gillet simply brings profile.

[DigzTFC]

Sorry,

let me be more direct about the relationship with Canadian MLS teams with owners that own EPL teams. If per se Mo Johnstone spots a U-16 player with a lot of talent, he can ship them over to Leeds United academy to further their development. I'm assuming that the TFC Academy will not reach the heights of the EPL academies or that these players would play against a high a level of competition in England. Knowledge transfer between the clubs would be great as well, but not that big of a deal in terms of Canadian talent. This country is the wildwest of talent. If Montreal can ship young kids over to Liverpool in that U-16 age that Canada sorely fall behind in, we will have a sure growth in harvesting talent to the top. I mean look at Abdoulaye Sylla in the Metz youth system. I bet he will be one of our brightest talents or David Hoilett. Imagine a direct pipeline of the best Canadian youth into these systems.

[AlanDouglas]

quote:Originally posted by DigzTFC

Here's the kicker though, MLS 2/the USL can have players playing in it without losing their NCAA eligibility.

The only way you can do that is for the team to be amateur. NCAA players cannot play on a team that has professionals.

So what you describe already exists, and is called the USL PDL.

[DigzTFC]

I guess rules are meant to change. I understand its against the rules, but I think Canada allows players to play in CIAU if they've played professionally. That guy who played for the LA Kings playing hockey at a Canadian University....Guys from europe come from Acadamies up to 18. To move forward, both the US and Canada need they're top young players playing at high levels. I'm assuming that the PDL is of lower quality than USL 1. Or we could fix the whole problem by making a 3 tier league system whereby most players make a very good living. I think rule changes are easier to change than the economics. But its all theories really. I understand the current framework doesn't allow for this, but it could. Plus, the USL will have a major identity crisis within the next decade

[Canuck Oranje]

My point was that I expect that MLSE would keep the two clubs(TFC and say Leeds if that happens) completely separate from a player development perspective. If there was a super talent discovered, I suspect you would not want him to sign with TFC and have them sign directly with the English academy. That is because the MLS club is really owned in partnership with all MLS owners (player contracts are signed with MLS and not individual clubs) and any profits would have to be shared.

Then if the development opportunity was a key factor in getting involved in European soccer, English soccer might not be the best choice because work permit regulations are not easy for players without an EU passport. It would be easier elsewhere in Europe (ie. Pele's investment group uses a Swiss team).

[DigzTFC]

All great points and food for thought. I'm more stating the benefits of having ownership groups that own EPL teams as a gateway for developing Canadian youth, rather than the reason why MLSE is interested in an english team. I'm celebrating the fact the opportunity for Canadian youth is greatly enhanced with these moves. Say another Gianni Patina is around in GTA, he will be identified quicker and sent to one of those acadamies. Maybe there aren't any real benefits to Canadian MLS teams' owners owning EPL teams at all. Who knows. I like to see the benefits.

[jpg75]

Hopefully within a few years our pro club academies are running as well as any English academy, if not better.

[btash]

Well this is a really good topic and all I have to add is that the tournament played between the MLS and USL clubs Symbolizes a soccer nation, but the MLS don't see that.

[btash]

quote:Originally posted by DigzTFC

MLS can have two drafts similar to MLB (high school and college).

Another thought is that the MLS should set their sites on becoming really pro. but having its clubs hire apprentices in the future. The stars like Pele and Maradona were not nerds who came out of a draft, they were kids that did nothing but played soccer and got signed by a big club. That being said the MLS is an American league and it should only be used as a stepping stone until we here in Canada have our own league in about 15-20 years.

[KAS]

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

Then if the development opportunity was a key factor in getting involved in European soccer, English soccer might not be the best choice because work permit regulations are not easy for players without an EU passport. It would be easier elsewhere in Europe (ie. Pele's investment group uses a Swiss team).

I was thinking this too. Kids with a European heritage who can get a EU passport have a huge advantage.

I was wondering, which countries in Europe are the easiest for young players to get into? I know it is not Britain, but I have heard that Belgium, Norway and Sweden are good. I *think* I read somewhere that Belgium was the easiest, but I really don't know.

So, if a rich Canadian wanted to buy a club in Europe that would help develop Canadian players, which country would he look at?

[Canuck Oranje]

Belgium and Sweden are members of the EU while Norway and Switzerland are not. I'm not sure about the ease of getting a work permit in Sweden or Belgium but I suspect the player's movement (as a non-EU player) would be restricted if they were to want to move to another EU country depending on that country's work permitting criteria (seem to remember Alfonso Alves having to wait for a work permit having his transfer to Middlesborough approved). Switzerland is interesting but I am not sure if the Pele group chose this for player development reasons or because UBS is a major investor.

Academy players have different rules if they participate in a European club academy as an amateur but I'm not sure how the transition to pro would happen so it may still be a dead end. I suspect that's how Jonathan de Guzman and other Canadians have gone to the Netherlands. I also know of a young Brazilian who trained at the Villarreal academy for a while as an amateur and then returned to Brazil to eventually sign professionally at home.

quote:Originally posted by KAS

I was thinking this too. Kids with a European heritage who can get a EU passport have a huge advantage.

I was wondering, which countries in Europe are the easiest for young players to get into? I know it is not Britain, but I have heard that Belgium, Norway and Sweden are good. I *think* I read somewhere that Belgium was the easiest, but I really don't know.

So, if a rich Canadian wanted to buy a club in Europe that would help develop Canadian players, which country would he look at?

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by DigzTFC

For USL owners? Not sure on the question. Similar to AHL, the MLS 2 or USL teams would be affiliated with an MLS club. That could mean the MLS club is a part owner. The younger players trying their luck and developing in MLS2/USL, so their will be quality players, and these players will not be paid to keep their amateur status. Rounding out a roster, cheapening the clubs expenses. USL cap can remain the same. The investors are already their and MLS can bring the USL under a single entity to help these clubs.

Yet where is the AHL in the context of Canadian hockey today? Winnipeg and Hamilton are the only two teams left in that circuit and can easily disappear at anytime.

As well, affiliations change on a regular basis. There no longer the case of teams remaining with one club for years. Why should people support such a league given its reliance on such affiliations? Just go look at MLB-affiliated baseball for your answer.

quote:Originally posted by DigzTFC

If the USL doesn't affiliate itself with the MLS, it is running the risk of too many teams folding. The real problem right now is that the reserve league in MLS plays 12 games or something...how are you suppose to develop with that. Or on the other hand, why is TFC Academy U-18 playing in the CSL. I think their skill would be better served against USL opponents. In other countries, young talent is playing against highly skilled opponents. You're only as good as your competition really. Its a model that forces a high level of development.

MLS developed the reserve league to get away from the matters of affiliation. As for the academy boys, they needed a way to keep their NCAA eligibility.

The USL will have to sort itself out but remaining independent is what allows it to survive.