Explain the Provincial Associations vs. the CSA

[JesseDart]

I often see posts referring to rifts between the Provinces and the CSA. It suggests a power struggle of sorts, but what is at the heart of this? What is this rift over really and this power that the provinces have is often blamed for the lack of progress. Someone with some insight explain please...

[Guest Jeffery S.]

Can't get into details now, but there are a few general things.

One is that the provinces are funding the CSA and some feel they should have more pull because of funding. Another is that some provinces have been historically strong and influential and still want to be so. Pure regional rivalries play a part, as with all Canadian sports.

More recently it seems there has been some conflicts for a number of reasons.

One is the CSA decision to help Toronto get the national stadium and the MLS team, when more monied owners and longer-standing clubs in Mtl and Vancouver felt they should have gotten first dibs. I think most of this has blown over now, and that both clubs are looking at MLS in the mid-term and taking lessons from Toronto. But both clubs do have influence in their provincial associations (especially the Caps).

Certain accusations of financial wrongdoing have come up recently, for example in Alberta. Insinuations from the new CSA president that they may be valid seems to have bothered some Alberta execs. Another appartent irritiation for Albertans was not getting the U-20 final after the strong precedent of the womens U-19 World Cup, which paved the way for Canada getting this summer's event. These could be factors in Alberta looking to weaken Linford. Losing USL franchises in Edmonton and Calgary has certainly not helped in Alberta either, a province with a lot of little stuff like this going on. So the Simoes hiring case was a way to get back at the CSA.

In this Alberta sided with BC, who lobbied heavily in favour of Mitchell, in part to retain BC influence in the CSA, in part to weaken Linford as well. Nova Scotia seems to have backed local boy Hart, and as all provincial presidents are on the CSA board that is already a strong lobby.

There are contradictions there though, as the CSA still has linked in with Kerfoot for the womens training, and BC has two cities with U-20 matches (considering the lack of solid facilities in Victoria, this is a gesture towards BC).

We have no recent evidence of Ontario having big problems with the CSA, perhaps dialogue is more fluid and personal there due to proximity. Am I wrong on this?

I personally think that the national men not playing regular friendlies all over the country, in games that could generate revenue -even to be shared back with the host province- and help promote the game, could be a factor that would have all the "weaker" provinces on the CSA's back. I am surprised that Sask, Man, NB and NS especially are not pushing harder to raise their own profiles and get more back from the CSA.

[Richard]

The CSA is governed by a Board of Directors that comprises the president, two vice-presidents and six elected directors, 11 provincial and teritorial directors. The provinces thus essentially run the show.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

The CSA is governed by a Board of Directors that comprises the president, two vice-presidents and six elected directors, 11 provincial and teritorial directors. The provinces thus essentially run the show.

The Association is based on one vote for one province so tiny PEI is casting a vote with the same value as Ontario. This leads to the worst influence from entrenched leaders..where an offer of a trip to X to small province buys you a chit to be called in later...its disfunctional.

The Voyageurs would be smart to talk more about reforming the CSA structure ..if they truly want to see the MNT make the World Cup, cause the way it is now..it will never ever change.

Eliminate provincial associations, have 14 Geographic Associations, register all clubs directly with the CSA, have all clubs vote directly at CSA AGMs for National Executive, with two year terms, one half voted in one year..then the other the second year.

Have the same structure for the Geographic Associations, voting in executives for two year terms...

Simple and Democratic.

[SF]

Simple problem with a complex solution.

The problem is the same as is with most things in this country. Securities regulation, taxation, health care. We are speaking, really, about the Canadian condition. Pissing match 101. Few winners and lots of losers.

The solution in the CSA context lies in changing the governance structure and constitutionalizing roles and responsibilities. This is where the complexity lies. Not in finding the solution, but in implementing the solution. It would require many of the current band of idiots to cede personal power and influence for the sake of the greater good.

Welcome to Canada.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

IN Canada, when the federal government negotiates with the provinces, such as in a transfer question, it is not ten votes against one. We do not have to entrench such an idea, as we negotiate nation-provinces all the time without submitting the national interests to being always outvoted by the provinces.

So clearly there is a way to solve this.

I think a consultation with Sport Canada would be in order.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

IN Canada, when the federal government negotiates with the provinces, such as in a transfer question, it is not ten votes against one. We do not have to entrench such an idea, as we negotiate nation-provinces all the time without submitting the national interests to being always outvoted by the provinces.

So clearly there is a way to solve this.

I think a consultation with Sport Canada would be in order.

Jeffery you forget the centre i.e. federal government has taxation points to give to the provinces..thats how they get buy in...dont compare an NGO with a government it does not work...

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by SF

Simple problem with a complex solution.

The problem is the same as is with most things in this country. Securities regulation, taxation, health care. We are speaking, really, about the Canadian condition. Pissing match 101. Few winners and lots of losers.

The solution in the CSA context lies in changing the governance structure and constitutionalizing roles and responsibilities. This is where the complexity lies. Not in finding the solution, but in implementing the solution. It would require many of the current band of idiots to cede personal power and influence for the sake of the greater good.

Welcome to Canada.

A pretty clear analysis...but the change can come at the provincial levels..if you can influence the clubs at the base level of the game in Canada..they have the power to change it all quickly but most club presidents dont have a understanding of the games structure and politics they are only in..it well there child plays..then they abandon the game for other pursuits as parent.

[SF]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

IN Canada, when the federal government negotiates with the provinces, such as in a transfer question, it is not ten votes against one. We do not have to entrench such an idea, as we negotiate nation-provinces all the time without submitting the national interests to being always outvoted by the provinces.

So clearly there is a way to solve this.

I think a consultation with Sport Canada would be in order.

My point is that we, in Canada, practise a decentralized federalism. In our politics we have the advantage of a constitution that defines responsibility (not to suggest it works terribly well, of course). Also, we have developed a practise whereby the federal government (call them the CSA) has the principle powers of taxation and the provincial government (call them the OSA, BCSA, etc...) has the principle responsibility to provide social service. Stupid? Of course. But, like I said, welcome to federalism Canadian style.

In soccer it is even worse. We have no such structure, so what we are left with is a national coordinating body that is ostensibly responsible for implementing a national vision, yet beholden to local interests that provide the funding. The result, of course, is that the national vision is rarely articulated and even more rarely implemented.

What we are left with is, essentially, civil disobediance.

You mentioned an appeal to Sport Canada. The most intellegent appeal would be to address the governance structure. If I was responsible for Sport Canada funding (God help the CSA if I ever was) my first act would be to make sure any end users of funds had a governance structure that facilitated success (let alone cripple it...) and, if any of them didn't, I would make them change or kiss the dough goodbye.

The solutions are simple. The people involved, regrettably, are also simple. Hence, the complexity.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

All I am saying is that surely Sport Canada would indicate what are the organizational models for national sport associations in CAnada. Including provincial roles and composition of voting boards. And I bet we would find a few examples where the parts do not outvote the whole, where the CSA model is not applied and the national association is thus more independently operative.

[JesseDart]

So then, if I understand correctly, the CSA is funded by the Provincial Associations, so it has to do what they want. Essentially, our World Cup aspirations in terms of budget, friendlies, preparations, etc, hinge on weather little Jimmy from Saskatchewan, petit Jacques, from Quebec, and Liam from Nova Scotia pay their registration fees.

So then, the solution seems simple in my oppinion. Dissolve all Provincial Associations. Set up CSA offices across all cities and have them run soccer from U-4 to Pro.

Get rid of meaningless All-star competitions and promote the Club model. Clubs will recruit and improve their player development program and the CSA will dedicate itself to Providing the conditions for Meaningful competitions and scouting.

Maybe this is too crazy for them, but it makes sense to me.

[JesseDart]

So then, if I understand correctly, the CSA is funded by the Provincial Associations, so it has to do what they want. Essentially, our World Cup aspirations in terms of budget, friendlies, preparations, etc, hinge on weather little Jimmy from Saskatchewan, petit Jacques, from Quebec, and Liam from Nova Scotia pay their registration fees.

So then, the solution seems simple in my oppinion. Dissolve all Provincial Associations. Set up CSA offices across all cities and have them run soccer from U-4 to Pro.

Get rid of meaningless All-star competitions and promote the Club model. Clubs will recruit and improve their player development program and the CSA will dedicate itself to Providing the conditions for Meaningful competitions and scouting.

Maybe this is too crazy for them, but it makes sense to me.

[Daniel]

I'd rather see separate National Team and Amateur branches, with separate budgets. Registration fees pay for the Amateur side of things, while government and sponsorship (which is at an all-time low) pay for the national teams.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by SF

You mentioned an appeal to Sport Canada. The most intellegent appeal would be to address the governance structure. If I was responsible for Sport Canada funding (God help the CSA if I ever was) my first act would be to make sure any end users of funds had a governance structure that facilitated success (let alone cripple it...) and, if any of them didn't, I would make them change or kiss the dough goodbye.

I actually think the lobbying might well be best aimed at Fifa to review and approve the national associations constitution and structure ...it appeas the FA in England is being reformed, and since the CSA often takes it lead from over there..maybe we can get the FA and Fifa to come in and rewrite the CSA constitution.

I am sure Jack Warner would be willing to help Colin Linford develop a new way to operate.

[SF]

quote:Originally posted by JesseDart

So then, if I understand correctly, the CSA is funded by the Provincial Associations, so it has to do what they want. Essentially, our World Cup aspirations in terms of budget, friendlies, preparations, etc, hinge on weather little Jimmy from Saskatchewan, petit Jacques, from Quebec, and Liam from Nova Scotia pay their registration fees.

So then, the solution seems simple in my oppinion. Dissolve all Provincial Associations. Set up CSA offices across all cities and have them run soccer from U-4 to Pro.

The provincial associations (and the clubs) play an integral role in soccer in this country. The grassroots is very important and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

Where we break down is when we have these grassroots organizations taking their own agendas to the national board that has (and should have) a different and sometimes competing mandate.

Some people will reasonably argue that the grassroots groups should be well represented at the national level because they, in essense, form the totality of Canadian soccer. Me? I would prefer some top level leadership and an accoutability set up that allows that leadership to lead. It may be insensitive to the grassroots, but, as I have said before, there is a whole lot of emperical evidence that suggests that the current system is more than a little innefective.

Get rid of meaningless All-star competitions and promote the Club model. Clubs will recruit and improve their player development program and the CSA will dedicate itself to Providing the conditions for Meaningful competitions and scouting.

Maybe this is too crazy for them, but it makes sense to me.

[SF]

quote:Originally posted by JesseDart

So then, if I understand correctly, the CSA is funded by the Provincial Associations, so it has to do what they want. Essentially, our World Cup aspirations in terms of budget, friendlies, preparations, etc, hinge on weather little Jimmy from Saskatchewan, petit Jacques, from Quebec, and Liam from Nova Scotia pay their registration fees.

So then, the solution seems simple in my oppinion. Dissolve all Provincial Associations. Set up CSA offices across all cities and have them run soccer from U-4 to Pro.

Get rid of meaningless All-star competitions and promote the Club model. Clubs will recruit and improve their player development program and the CSA will dedicate itself to Providing the conditions for Meaningful competitions and scouting.

Maybe this is too crazy for them, but it makes sense to me.

The provincial associations (and the clubs) play an integral role in soccer in this country. The grassroots is very important and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

Where we break down is when we have these grassroots organizations taking their own agendas to the national board that has (and should have) a different and sometimes competing mandate.

Some people will reasonably argue that the grassroots groups should be well represented at the national level because they, in essense, form the totality of Canadian soccer. Me? I would prefer some top level leadership and an accoutability set up that allows that leadership to lead. It may be insensitive to the grassroots, but, as I have said before, there is a whole lot of emperical evidence that suggests that the current system is more than a little innefective.

[argh1]

I for one will give Mr. Nykamp some time to form a national vision.

We have never had one and tend to have a knee-jerk or haphazard approach.

I think if a national vision is in place a consensus can be achieved with provincial associations.

This lack of any national approach has allowed the vacuum to be filled by provincial associations.

It will be a give and take like it always is...but a clear national vision will I'm sure get the support of the provincial associations. It's been the total lack of national direction in alot of ways that's allowed the provincial associations to be the power brokers they are...

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by SF

The provincial associations (and the clubs) play an integral role in soccer in this country. The grassroots is very important and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

Where we break down is when we have these grassroots organizations taking their own agendas to the national board that has (and should have) a different and sometimes competing mandate.

Some people will reasonably argue that the grassroots groups should be well represented at the national level because they, in essense, form the totality of Canadian soccer. Me? I would prefer some top level leadership and an accoutability set up that allows that leadership to lead. It may be insensitive to the grassroots, but, as I have said before, there is a whole lot of emperical evidence that suggests that the current system is more than a little innefective.

Yes, So true. Its time turn the pyramid from being upside down to being right side up. So far from everything that I have heard about this new guy, its sounds like he's the kind of guy who can do that. Basically, all the players on the mens national teams come from 3-4 provinces. yet that rest, which is a majority of the province, have developed Zero players for the Nat teams. yet, they have an equal in decsion making

[Canuck Oranje]

To clarify, the CSA is funded by a share of registration fees from players, sponsorships, and some government funding. Provincial associations only have power because they stand between the registered players and the CSA.

It is the local clubs that collect registration fees and not the provincial associations. It is the local clubs that have the relationship with the players and their parents. The local clubs are also best positioned to provide a boost in player development. And that is not unlike most other countries around the world.

In my view, it would make far more sense to have local clubs be direct voting members of the CSA. I see the current problem being that the provincial associations are attempting to represent local clubs and simply blur the local issues to their own political benefit. At the same time, with local clubs directly involveed with the national association, there would be more accountability on the part of the CSA to those who provide the funds.

Also, for local people to have a say in the CSA, the means would also be clear. That is become a member of your local club.

Provincial associations have a role to play but that tends to be administrative. I don't see why provincial associations need to be involved in national teams.

On the use of sponsorship and government funds, they will have defined uses attached by those providing the funds. I doubt you could legally shift funds from the use for which these these funds were originally collected.

Finally, the CSA board also needs to be reduced to a more manageable size. I would suggest going from the current number to about 12. That should be doable if need for provincial representation is not required.

[argh1]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Yes, So true. Its time turn the pyramid from being upside down to being right side up. So far from everything that I have heard about this new guy, its sounds like he's the kind of guy who can do that. Basically, all the players on the mens national teams come from 3-4 provinces. yet that rest, which is a majority of the province, have developed Zero players for the Nat teams. yet, they have an equal in decsion making

So we should marginalize the "small" provincial associations and have reps on the CSA board based on MNT representation?

What happens if the cycle turns and PEI has more players than a "big" provincial associations?

Where will the elite players come from if not the grassroots?

Why can't the CSA gain a national consensus on how to develop MNT players?

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by argh1

Why can't the CSA gain a national consensus on how to develop MNT players?

Because NO ONE can gain a national consensus?

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by argh1

So we should marginalize the "small" provincial associations and have reps on the CSA board based on MNT representation?

What happens if the cycle turns and PEI has more players than a "big" provincial associations?

Where will the elite players come from if not the grassroots?

Why can't the CSA gain a national consensus on how to develop MNT players?

Its not a question of marginalizing small provincial bodies, its a question of eliminating the provincial bodies.

Replace provincial associations with "Regional Associations", who manage game at local regional level for league opperations, discipline and club oversite.

Give every club in Canada a vote for the National Annual General Meeting, to elect the National Associations Board of Directors.

Once you get revised structure to the Association, you can begin getting a smoother development system, using the clubs, that is amateur player to non-amateur club locally ...up to a Professional club.

Funding for the National Team programs, should be linked to player registrations but capped at a % that remains the same year to year of actual fees charged to be a registered player...