Guest HamiltonSteelers Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 Here's my perspective on the foreign club v. local club. Being an afficionado of sports business, it is hard to get behind a club, knowing that full well, that might not be here next year. The idea of, however, of throwing your support behind a club that has been in existance of over a century, well you know that they are unlikely to disappear. Approx. 15 years ago, I fell into Manchester United. I was doing research on english teams, and I thought Mark Hughes was awesome, Peter Schmeichel was a madman and a general and I admired that and Giggs was the new kid who could fly down the wings. I was hooked and been there ever since. Man U was in the thick of it, but with 5 weeks to go of the end of season, they would trail off. Looking up the english game was a by-product of the CSL, and the folding of Hamilton. I needed a new team and Man U filled that void. Then they became the marketing machine, titles here, titles there, and now you can't be a Man United supporter without being a glory-hunter. Whatever. Unfortunately, clubs appear, disappear and reappear. Strangely enough, Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver have outlasted them all, but it has only been in the last year or so that Montreal and Vancouver have made social commitments to growing the game by building their own facilities (training, stadia, offices...) and those are physical foundations that the club isn't going anywhere - nothing to do with press or politics or how wealthy the owner is (though it does help). And as far as I am concerned, it doesn't matter if the european/south american club(s) you support win it all or dwell in the second division. If you are not supporting your local club, YOU ARE A GLORY-HUNTER. Now go put your money where your mouth is, buy a damn ticket and go to a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarnCherry Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 quote:Canada does not have a professional league or teams besides the Lynx, Whitecaps, Impact and CPSL clubs. Umm, there are quite a few more clubs in the country than the 3 USL-1 teams and the CPSL. CPSL isn't the only domestic league. Also, yes look at the state of Canadian soccer. It's that way because there is a lack of support for it. There's no need or demand for it to improve if nobody cares about it. I don't think anything bad was said in this thread. Polish_LYNX_fan was just lamenting the fact that there isn't enough support for domestic teams. No need for everyone to get all defensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarnCherry Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 quote:Canada does not have a professional league or teams besides the Lynx, Whitecaps, Impact and CPSL clubs. Umm, there are quite a few more clubs in the country than the 3 USL-1 teams and the CPSL. CPSL isn't the only domestic league. Also, yes look at the state of Canadian soccer. It's that way because there is a lack of support for it. There's no need or demand for it to improve if nobody cares about it. I don't think anything bad was said in this thread. Polish_LYNX_fan was just lamenting the fact that there isn't enough support for domestic teams. No need for everyone to get all defensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealGooner Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 quote:Originally posted by HamiltonSteelers Here's my perspective on the foreign club v. local club. And as far as I am concerned, it doesn't matter if the european/south american club(s) you support win it all or dwell in the second division. If you are not supporting your local club, YOU ARE A GLORY-HUNTER. Now go put your money where your mouth is, buy a damn ticket and go to a game. Sorry Steeler, Arsenal was the first soccer club I suported, and I wont change my allegience just because I moved to Toronto. Do you think that a Boston resident should abandon the Red Sox and support the Yankees if he or she moves to Manhattan? If they move back to Boston do they switch alliegences again? Switching support to "local teams" every time you move towns would be rather ridiculous don't you think? But that is what your post implies. I'm loyal to my team and country. Unswerving loyalty to your team shows character. Honestly, myself and others like me have nothing to prove to the rest of Canada. In fact the rest of Canada could learn a thing or two from us about loyalty - You alluded to the transitory nature of teams here. How much loyalty was shown to Jets and Nordiques fans by the team owners? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 The only support that counts is buying tickets for and attending games. Hard to do that if you live thousands of miles away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarnCherry Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 That baseball analogy is apples/oranges. Those teams play in the same league, of course you would support your first team if you moved to the city of a rival. I doubt however that the baseball fan who moved would stop going to games in his new city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealGooner Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead [ I don't think anything bad was said in this thread. Polish_LYNX_fan was just lamenting the fact that there isn't enough support for domestic teams. No need for everyone to get all defensive. Well Krammerhead, Polish_LYNX_Fan said that if half the people who joined the Arsenal club took an interest in Canadian soccer Canadian soccer would be in better shape. My problem with this is PLF's assumption that people in the Arsenal club are not supporting Canadian soccer right now. How does he know for a fact that 'half the people' in the Arsenal club dont go to MNT, USL or CPSL games already? Does he know for a fact that there are no Arsenal Club members among the crowds watching Lynx or MNT games? Does he know evey Lynx/Whitecaps/Impact/MNT fan well enough to make this claim? Its a statement that is rather insulting and is not born out by any factual evidence. It really ought not to have been made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealGooner Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Richard The only support that counts is buying tickets for and attending games. Hard to do that if you live thousands of miles away. Wrong, TV revenue is by far and away the most important financial support that teams look to in today's global village. Having people watch on tv thousands of miles away counts. Alot. Ticket sales are now secondary, soon to be tertiary. Welcome to 21st century sports my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealGooner Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead [ I doubt however that the baseball fan who moved would stop going to games in his new city. Opinion, not fact. I know some Montrealers who live here in Toronto that dont go to watch Leaf games because they never liked the Leafs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loud Mouth Soup Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Richard The only support that counts is buying tickets for and attending games. Hard to do that if you live thousands of miles away. Sorry, Richard-but that is one of the dumber quotes I've read on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Loud Mouth Soup Sorry, Richard-but that is one of the dumber quotes I've read on here. OK, then you tell us what you think is more important to any professional club than ticket sales and attendance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 Don't want to interupt too much but I can't help myself. On an operating budget of 62M pound last year (a club budget probably in the top 10-15% in the world in spite of playing in the SPL) Celtic lost 7M pound. 32M pounds from direct gate revenue, and 17M pounds of multimedia revenue. Celtic and Rangers are the Scottish exceptions in that yes indeed, TV revenue is important. But they are the exception and generate much of this revenue "in-house". I believe the average SPL TV payout was around the 2M pound mark for last year. Fulham who probably received the smallest TV revenue payout in the EPL last year, took in near 20M pound. About 2/3rds of their budget? Nice. My point? While every pence counts, outside of the EPL and Serie A I think you'll find most leagues draw the lions share of their revenues from the gate. And competition prize money. The difference between Celtic loosing 7M last year and making 10M was a failure to advance further into Champions League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealGooner Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Richard OK, then you tell us what you think is more important to any professional club than ticket sales and attendance? I'll tell you what I think is more important than ticket sales again: 1) TV revenue 2) Merchandising revenue. I dont need to buy a ticket to Highbury support Arsenal. I can buy the ArsenalTV online video package $$$. I can buy a jersey and they get a royalty from it. Ticket sales were king...in the 1960s. Teams have multiple revenue streams today. Why is the EPL so big now? Because they have the biggest TV package of all soccer leagues. Why are German and French teams struggling to make an impact in Champions League? Because they dont have global tv packages and merchandising that can provide them with the revenue to sign the best players that Italian and English clubs can. Rangers and Celtic are fading from the European scene becaues all they have is ...ticket sales. Thats why they want to join the EPL, with its lucrative tv package. Being on TV in 170 countries would also mean more higher profile: more old firm jerseys, scarves, mugs, t-shirts, caps, credit cards etc would then be sold. Did you know Highbury only holds 39,000? If the Gunners relied just on ticket sales to fund their effort they would not be able to compete with the Man Us and Chelsea of the world. They need people buying their stuff and watching EPL on tv even more than they need 39,000 bums in seats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealGooner Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Cheeta My point? While every pence counts, outside of the EPL and Serie A I think you'll find most leagues draw the lions share of their revenues from the gate. Is it a coincidence then that EPL and Serie A are the cream of the crop? Teams that diversify their revenue streams away from just ticket sales flourish, and that is a fact. Wow, we're way off topic here, lol.[] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loud Mouth Soup Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 Well, where to start, Richard? As RealGooner has said, watching them on TV is a good start to contributing to supporting your team. The English Premier League, I do believe, makes the most money of ANY league worldwide when it comes to money from television rights. The higher your TV ratings, the more TV networks can charge for commercials. The more money coming in, the more money the Premier League can raise the rights by the following season. Without TV money, the Premier League is not the business powerhouse it is, and the clubs receive less money from the League. So, little old me turning on my TV on a Saturday morning does make a difference when it comes to supporting my team. Then there's all the goods they sell to me, a fan. Shirts, shorts, jackets, socks, DVDs, videos, keychains, bags, posters, calendars, pencils, duvet covers, pillow cases, photographs....well, you get the idea. Whenever I buy one of these products, I support the team. How about being there when I go over to visit family and friends? Yes, as you say, tickets are important, and most of us would plan on attending a match. But there are also stadium tours, visiting the shops, and even attending non-football events in the stadium. So, while tickets might be important and involve a large portion of a club's operating budget, they are not the "only support that matters". Yes, I'm going by your original comment, not the one you conveniently changed it to in the above quote. Thinking the way you do is quite similar to those who call anyone who's a fan of a team somewhere they don't live 'plastic', and only they who live nearby and/or go to matches are 'true' fans. SO don't go telling me that tickets and attendance are the only thing that matters. Because they are not the only thing that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 quote:Originally posted by RealGooner I'll tell you what I think is more important than ticket sales again: 1) TV revenue 2) Merchandising revenue. I dont need to buy a ticket to Highbury support Arsenal. I can buy the ArsenalTV online video package $$$. I can buy a jersey and they get a royalty from it. Ticket sales were king...in the 1960s. Teams have multiple revenue streams today. Why is the EPL so big now? Because they have the biggest TV package of all soccer leagues. Why are German and French teams struggling to make an impact in Champions League? Because they dont have global tv packages and merchandising that can provide them with the revenue to sign the best players that Italian and English clubs can. Rangers and Celtic are fading from the European scene becaues all they have is ...ticket sales. Thats why they want to join the EPL, with its lucrative tv package. Being on TV in 170 countries would also mean more higher profile: more old firm jerseys, scarves, mugs, t-shirts, caps, credit cards etc would then be sold. Did you know Highbury only holds 39,000? If the Gunners relied just on ticket sales to fund their effort they would not be able to compete with the Man Us and Chelsea of the world. They need people buying their stuff and watching EPL on tv even more than they need 39,000 bums in seats. Your points are all fine and dandy for EPL clubs and others in similar situations, but I was referring to Canadian soccer. No TV deals so no revenue there. The Whitecaps pay in part for the radio play-by-play coverage they get, no income there. Some minor revenue from merchandising sure. 500 programs sold per game at $2 each is not really going to cut it either. I suspect the other USLD1 clubs in Canada are in a similar situation. Now tell me again what is more important to our clubs than ticket sales, especially season tickets, and match attendance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Richard Your points are all fine and dandy for EPL clubs and others in similar situations, but I was referring to Canadian soccer. No TV deals so no revenue there. The Whitecaps pay in part for the radio play-by-play coverage they get, no income there. Some minor revenue from merchandising sure. 500 programs sold per game at $2 each is not really going to cut it either. I suspect the other USLD1 clubs in Canada are in a similar situation. Now tell me again what is more important to our clubs than ticket sales, especially season tickets, and match attendance? Isn't it the EPL that's thousands of miles away? Isn't this how the thread, and your subsequent contribution, started? You asked what's more important to ANY club. You get an answer, then dismiss the answer as irrelevant to your most recent example -to which no one was privy? WTF? This is the problem with argumentative alzheimer victims. Somebody needs to do an old yeller on this guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HamiltonSteelers Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 quote:Originally posted by RealGooner Sorry Steeler, Arsenal was the first soccer club I suported, and I wont change my allegience just because I moved to Toronto. Do you think that a Boston resident should abandon the Red Sox and support the Yankees if he or she moves to Manhattan? If they move back to Boston do they switch alliegences again? Switching support to "local teams" every time you move towns would be rather ridiculous don't you think? But that is what your post implies. I'm loyal to my team and country. Unswerving loyalty to your team shows character. Honestly, myself and others like me have nothing to prove to the rest of Canada. In fact the rest of Canada could learn a thing or two from us about loyalty - You alluded to the transitory nature of teams here. How much loyalty was shown to Jets and Nordiques fans by the team owners? Do you attend Lynx games? Any of the multitude of CPSL teams? Is there a local club you support? Arsenal can be your first club, but it should not be your only club. If half of the people who claimed to be 'supporters' of teams abroad showed up to one game a year domestically, we would see attendance triple in Toronto, double in Vancouver and spiral out of control in the CPSL. As far as owners and the Jets/Nordiques, the Jets owner had the team up for sale for close to three years looking for a local owner and trying to get a new building built. When that failed, he sold it. Quebec, on the other had, said "I want building", local gov'ts said no, and it was sold the next day. When you can sell out a building getting 20-some odd points in a season, those are real fans. And the NHL did nothing to help either situation, except find them a new American city to play out of. The baseball analogy isn't that strong since you are talking about top flight baseball. If you lived in France, and you supported the Yankees, while the city/town you lived in had a semi-pro baseball league which you never attended, then you would be a glory hunter, forsaking what is in your backyard for "something better". And that is the problem, the game will continue to struggle as people follow "something better" and do nothing to have it happen in their own city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argh1 Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 Heck, I gotta get in here. Living in a spot that has no and I mean no pro teams of any type shape or discription. Also I follow QPR constantly, so I have no problem with a loyalty (?) to teams from away. But if every follower of a top soccer team showed up for Codiac League or AUS soccer here (Dieppe Dynamo play Hampton United this weekend in Challenge Cup to go to the nationals) or if every NHL fan showed up for Wildcats or Beavers games or if every MLB fan showed up for Moncton Mets games or if every 3 or 4 down football fan showed up for Mount Allison Mounties or Maritme Football League games.....well they'd be the richest in the universe.(yes I follow alot of sports) My problem is when people would rather sit at home and watch TV games instead of giving the small amount of dough to pay to watch a local side. It's quite allright to support teams from away.But our locals need ya. Because we ain't got any biggies especially in soccer and the locals need your 5 or 10 or 20 loonies to cover costs. EDIT: So enjoy yourself and those that want as a social club to watch Gunners (why them I dunno ) games but give your few bucks to a local side once in a while. You might like being out of doors cheering the local boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HamiltonSteelers Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 I may not have made this clear, but the correlation between local v foreign club is tied into the lack of support for the absent professional domestic game, and that game cannot grow if those who call themselves soccer supporters cannot support the soccer we have. You can be a punter as much as you want, but if those who want domestic soccer to succeed aren't supporting domestic soccer, then it is merely lip-service, and that is why few are crazy enough to make the plunge into building anything significant in every community across the country. People line up to get into the Moncton Coliseum to watch the Wildcats because they appreciate what they have, and acknowledge that what they are paying to see is good hockey (even if the home team isn't). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone Isn't it the EPL that's thousands of miles away? Isn't this how the thread, and your subsequent contribution, started? You asked what's more important to ANY club. You get an answer, then dismiss the answer as irrelevant to your most recent example -to which no one was privy? WTF? This is the problem with argumentative alzheimer victims. Somebody needs to do an old yeller on this guy. Even an EPL team, if it fails to draw adequate attendance will see other revenues fall off and in due course fail. The ultimate measure of success for any spectator sport including professional football is.... you guessed it: SPECTATORS! Spectators = people attending games. Now who is the one suffering from alzheimers disease here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argh1 Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 quote:Originally posted by HamiltonSteelers I may not have made this clear, but the correlation between local v foreign club is tied into the lack of support for the absent professional domestic game, and that game cannot grow if those who call themselves soccer supporters cannot support the soccer we have. You can be a punter as much as you want, but if those who want domestic soccer to succeed aren't supporting domestic soccer, then it is merely lip-service, and that is why few are crazy enough to make the plunge into building anything significant in every community across the country. People line up to get into the Moncton Coliseum to watch the Wildcats because they appreciate what they have, and acknowledge that what they are paying to see is good hockey (even if the home team isn't). Yeah what I'm trying to say is ......support your teams from away and have fun doin' it but give some support to the local team be it USL1,CPSL,PCSL, or in my case Codiac League. Not trying to take away from being a follower from afar but local counts that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HamiltonSteelers Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 quote:Originally posted by argh1 Not trying to take away from being a follower from afar but local counts that's all. Well, if you want to abbreviate the whole thing, sure, that's exactly what I was trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HamiltonSteelers Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 quote:Originally posted by argh1 Not trying to take away from being a follower from afar but local counts that's all. Well, if you want to abbreviate the whole thing, sure, that's exactly what I was trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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