CPSL's Toronto Croatia are Canadian Soccer Champs

[Robert]

Or at least according to CONCACAF they are. Where do these ideas start?

http://www.concacaf.com/view_article.asp?id=2905

2004 CONCACAF COMPETITIONS

* Tournament Champion

CHAMPIONS’ CUP: LD Alajuelense (CRC)*

FIFA QUALIFIERS

FUTSAL QUALIFYING: Cuba, USA*

MEN’S UNDER-23 OLYMPIC QUALIFYING: Costa Rica, Mexico*

UNDER-19 WOMEN’S QUALIFYING: Canada*, USA

WOMEN’S OLYMPIC QUALIFYING: Mexico, USA*

NATIONAL LEAGUES

DOMESTIC LEAGUE CHAMPIONS (for 2004, or 2003-04 seasons, as applicable)

CARIBBEAN ZONE

ANGUILLA: AFA League 2004 – Spartans International

ANTIGUA & BARBUDA: Premier Division 2003-04 – Bassa SC

ARUBA: Division di Honor 2003-04 – SV Deportivo Nacional

BAHAMAS: New Providence League 2004 – Bears FC

BARBADOS: Premier League 2004 – Notre Dame SC

BERMUDA: Premier Division 2003-04 – Dandy Town SC

BRITISH VIRGIN ISLANDS: 2003-04 National League – Rangers

CAYMAN ISLANDS: Fosters National League 2003-04 –Latinos FC

CUBA: Campeonato Nacional de Fútbol 2004 – still in progress

DOMINICA: Premier League 2003-04 – Harris Paints Harlem United

DOMINICAN REPUBLIC: Liga Mayor 2004 – still in progress

FRENCH GUYANA: Ligue de Football 2004 – ASC Le Geldar

GRENADA: GFA/Digicel Championship 2004 – Police SC

GUADELOUPE: Division d’Honneur 2004 – Racing Club

GUYANA: Kashif & Shanghai Cup 2003-04 – Camptown

HAITI: Championnat de Premiere Division 2004 – not reported

JAMAICA: Wray & Nephew National Premier League 2003-04 – Tivoli Gardens FC

MARTINIQUE: Division d’Honneur 2003-04 – Club Franciscain

MONTSERRAT: FA League 2004 – Ideal Football Club

NETHERLANDS ANTILLES: Kampionato de Korsou 2003-04 – SV Centro Deportivo Barber

PUERTO RICO: Liga Mayor Fútbol 2004 – Sporting de San Lorenzo

ST. KITTS & NEVIS: Premier Division 2003-04 – TDC Newtown United FC

ST. LUCIA: Premier League 2003-04 – Roots Alley Ballers

SAINT-MARTIN: SXM League 2003-04 – Juventus de Saint-Martin

ST. VINCENT & THE GRENADINES: Guinness Club Championship 2004 – Samba FC

SINT-MAARTEN: not reported

SURINAM: SVB Hoofdklaase 2003-04 – Walking Boys Company

TRINIDAD & TOBAGO: Professional Football League 2004 – North East Stars

TURKS & CAICOS ISLANDS: TCIFA Football League 2003-04 – KPMG United FC

US VIRGIN ISLANDS: USVI Championship 2003-04 – Helenites

CENTRAL AMERICAN ZONE

BELIZE: Liga 2004 – Boca FC

COSTA RICA: Primera División 2004 – Municipal Pérez Zeledón (Apertura); Deportivo Saprissa (Clausura)

EL SALVADOR: Liga Mayor 2004 – CD F.A.S. (Apertura); Alianza FC (Clausura)

GUATEMALA: Primera División 2004 – CSD Municipal (Apertura); Cobán Imperial (Clausura)

HONDURAS: Primera División 2004 – CD Marathón (Apertura, Clausura)

NICARAGUA: Campeonato Nacional 2004 – Diriangén FC (Apertura); Real Estelí FC (Clausura)

PANAMA: ANAPROF 2004 – Deportivo Árabe Unido (Apertura, Clausura)

NORTH AMERICAN ZONE

CANADA: CPSL 2004 – Toronto Croatia NSC

MEXICO: Primera División 2004 – Pumas UNAM (Apertura, Clausura)

USA: Major League Soccer 2004 – D.C. United

[beachesl]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

Or at least according to CONCACAF they are. Where do these ideas start?

Nerds liek us in other countries sitting in front of computers with search engines. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

[Luis_Rancagua]

I realise that this is a complete joke, but it would be nice to see a Canadian representation at the next CONCACAF Club Championship. Rather than Kevan Pipe focussing so much attention on MLS-Canada, he should pay some attention on when a Canadian representation will make an appearance at the CONCACAF Club Championship. Oh!!!! By the way Mr. Pipe, where is the Canadian Open-Cup Championship of which you promised the fans over 2-years ago????? I now realise that downright low-lifes such as you are worth nothing.

[DoyleG]

Soccer in Canada operates in strange ways.

[Blue and White Army]

I thought Victoria United were Canadian champs! They won the PCSL, after all.....

[)]

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by beachesl

Nerds liek us in other countries sitting in front of computers with search engines. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

I don't know about the quality of accuracy for the remainder of this CONCACAF list of champions, but it appears that of the 12 CONCACAF semi-finalists for this World Cup qualifying campaign all but Canada have a domestic league, with quite a number of these countries having an opening and a closing championship. I'm sure some of these countries, if not all of them, encounter challenges that are unique to each particular nation. However, they all seem to be able to rise above their adversity. I also would love to see a Canadian representative at the CONCACAF Club Championship. I believe that if the participation of a Canadian team in this competition were televised live by a major national network it would have a positive impact on soccer in Canada. Why is the CSA not lobbying to have Toronto Croatia, Victoria United or any other Canadian team participate in the upcoming tournament? If CONCACAF on their website recognize Toronto Croatia as being champions of Canada, and if Canada is a CONCACAF member in good standing, Kevan isn't Kevan Pipe insisting to Jack Warner that we play in the next tournament? Or Kevan, if that is an other one of the many tasks that you are not responsible for, all I ask is that you please request that the person who is responsible do so. If this doesn't happen could we, the Voyageurs know why? Is our championship not really recognized? Are you afraid we would get embarrassed? Is it not in the budget to financially assist a small-market soccer club? This could be the impetus to set the Canadian soccer wheels in motion, yet it appears that this is just an other of many lost opportunities.

[G-Man]

If a tounament rep was to be sent from Canada. (Gaints Cup?)

And if the tournament was to be held lets say in March. Could someone like the Impact get it's team together or would it even be in there budget to sign those players- when no revenue is coming in? I'm sure that the contracts are based on the length of a A-league season.

Sounds like the CSA probably has nothing to do with it.

AND isn't the CPSL considered to be Canada's truley Canadian Pro league? I know I know....I KNOW!

[Daniel]

I'm pretty sure a CONCACAF rep just looked up who were the varying Canadian champions and the only "pro" league that came up had the name "Canadian" in it and therefore the CPSL champion seemed like the most credible. Until the CSA sanctions the VCup or organises a championship, it's random namings like this or nothing .

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

If a tounament rep was to be sent from Canada. (Gaints Cup?)

And if the tournament was to be held lets say in March. Could someone like the Impact get it's team together or would it even be in there budget to sign those players- when no revenue is coming in? I'm sure that the contracts are based on the length of a A-league season.

Sounds like the CSA probably has nothing to do with it.

AND isn't the CPSL considered to be Canada's truley Canadian Pro league? I know I know....I KNOW!

Don't you think that an Impact home game against a team like the UNAM Pumas would bring in a little revenue. Here let me do the math. The Impact seem capable of drawing 12,000 if the opposition is decent. I don't know what the Montreal economy is like right now but an average ticket price of $25 per ticket has got to be doable since all those Habs fans have been saving their money. That means a gate of $300,000. With a bit of work this game could attract some television advertisers, say a conservative $100,000. That would means $400,000 to buy say 20 tickets to Mexico City at a $1,000 a piece. $5,000 for a couple of nights in hotels. $500 for all the refried beans you can eat. $100,000 for me for promoting this game and that brings the total costs to $125,500, which would leave $274,500 for the Impact players to divie-up. Definately sounds doable, eh? God forbid we upset the Aztecs and have to play a second round. This could also serve as a good tune-up game for the Montreal regular season.

[Michael Crampton]

To be fair the article lists them as champions of the CPSL... which they are. The CSA recognizes the CPSL as Canada's highest domestic league. You do the math. It's not like it's saying that they're better than the Impact or something just that they were winners of the highest domestic league in the country - pro, semi-pro or amateur status has nothing to do with it. Personally I'm just glad Canada even got a mention and I'll bet Croatia would do alright against Dandy Town SC - they might even get paid more.

Mike.

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

Don't you think that an Impact home game against a team like the UNAM Pumas would bring in a little revenue. Here let me do the math. The Impact seem capable of drawing 12,000 if the opposition is decent. I don't know what the Montreal economy is like right now but an average ticket price of $25 per ticket has got to be doable since all those Habs fans have been saving their money. That means a gate of $300,000. With a bit of work this game could attract some television advertisers, say a conservative $100,000. That would means $400,000 to buy say 20 tickets to Mexico City at a $1,000 a piece. $5,000 for a couple of nights in hotels. $500 for all the refried beans you can eat. $100,000 for me for promoting this game and that brings the total costs to $125,500, which would leave $274,500 for the Impact players to divie-up. Definately sounds doable, eh? God forbid we upset the Aztecs and have to play a second round. This could also serve as a good tune-up game for the Montreal regular season.

So people, take note: numbers don't mean squat if you make them up.

The facts are simple. Tickets cost between 10$-15$ (that would be excluding flexpasses and youth tickets, which in itself is detrimental to the math) with many comps and discounted tickets. The only time the Impact has attracted at least 12,000 was for the final, which was a big event crowning a successful season. Other big crowds were worked in with large regional associations (such as the 11k+ vs. Vancouver). At best you'd HOPE for 100 000$ at the gate (and that's being generous). TV revenue? Are you kidding me??? The only revenue would be selling the rights back to Mexican TV, who might not even pick it up. Otherwise, the best deal in current conditions would be free broadcasting. And again, this would be assuming that 10k people show up in MARCH (!!!) with no prior marketing or buildup to watch a foreign team (a Mexican team might attract some people, but I wouldn't be so sure about Sporting Cristal or whatever cracking the even the 5k mark. Bottom line: your 400,000$ becomes around 100,000$ and your credibility sinks even further.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by BHTC Mike

To be fair the article lists them as champions of the CPSL... which they are. The CSA recognizes the CPSL as Canada's highest domestic league. You do the math. It's not like it's saying that they're better than the Impact or something just that they were winners of the highest domestic league in the country - pro, semi-pro or amateur status has nothing to do with it. Personally I'm just glad Canada even got a mention and I'll bet Croatia would do alright against Dandy Town SC - they might even get paid more.

Mike.

Would you agree that the name of this league is just slightly misleading. By using the word Canadian it implies something of national proportions and since it is only representive of one or two provinces at the most it does appear like an embellishment to any Canadian from outside of those two provinces and totally misleading to someone from any of the other CONCACAF countries. I believe that the intention of CONCACAF was to provide a list of national champions, which Toronto Croatia most definately is not as I'm sure there are many players and clubs in the rest of Canada that would legitimately agrue such a claim. I do not believe the the players of Toronto Croatia even try to fool themselves by thinking that they are Canadian soccer champions. The heading used by CONCACAF was after all,

"NATIONAL LEAGUES

DOMESTIC LEAGUE CHAMPIONS (for 2004, or 2003-04 seasons, as applicable)."

If as you claim this information was based on what the CSA recognizes as Canada's highest domestic league, it only diminishes the credibility of the CSA even further. They are once again trying to create something that doesn't exist.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

So people, take note: numbers don't mean squat if you make them up.

The facts are simple. Tickets cost between 10$-15$ (that would be excluding flexpasses and youth tickets, which in itself is detrimental to the math) with many comps and discounted tickets. The only time the Impact has attracted at least 12,000 was for the final, which was a big event crowning a successful season. Other big crowds were worked in with large regional associations (such as the 11k+ vs. Vancouver). At best you'd HOPE for 100 000$ at the gate (and that's being generous). TV revenue? Are you kidding me??? The only revenue would be selling the rights back to Mexican TV, who might not even pick it up. Otherwise, the best deal in current conditions would be free broadcasting. And again, this would be assuming that 10k people show up in MARCH (!!!) with no prior marketing or buildup to watch a foreign team (a Mexican team might attract some people, but I wouldn't be so sure about Sporting Cristal or whatever cracking the even the 5k mark. Bottom line: your 400,000$ becomes around 100,000$ and your credibility sinks even further.

Okay Danyell. You win. The glass is half empty.

[DJT]

The Challenge Cup winners used to be identified as Canadian "national champions" on these lists that come out at the end of every year, probably because the CSA refers to them as such. Worse, because the CSA uses province names instead of club names when talking about the Challenge Cup, our "national champions" would appear as, for example, "Alberta".

I don't think that Toronto Croatia should appear on this list, but neither should the Challenge Cup winners, let alone the province from which the winners come. I guess we shouldn't be on the list at all since we don't have a true national champion.

But regardless, this just isn't worth the energy.

[Daniel]

Robert, the glass isn't half-empty, from far it. It's rather full, just much smaller than you might think. Think of it as a shot glass for now.

[Michael Crampton]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

Would you agree that the name of this league is just slightly misleading. By using the word Canadian it implies something of national proportions and since it is only representive of one or two provinces at the most it does appear like an embellishment to any Canadian from outside of those two provinces and totally misleading to someone from any of the other CONCACAF countries.

Of course the name is misleading. The CPSL has always admitted that the Canadian and Professional parts of its moniker are statements of ambition rather than expressions of the league's current form. If I had my givens and druthers I would have called it the Ontario Premier Soccer League - but it'snot worth changing now. That said it wasn't until past the turn of the century that the Football League included teams from the south of England (including London) and until very recently the Scottish Football League included no Highland clubs. I'm sure if you went through that list of champions there'd be a few other small island countries that have all their clubs in one major city.

quote:I believe that the intention of CONCACAF was to provide a list of national champions, which Toronto Croatia most definately is not as I'm sure there are many players and clubs in the rest of Canada that would legitimately agrue such a claim. I do not believe the the players of Toronto Croatia even try to fool themselves by thinking that they are Canadian soccer champions. The heading used by CONCACAF was after all,

"NATIONAL LEAGUES

DOMESTIC LEAGUE CHAMPIONS (for 2004, or 2003-04 seasons, as applicable)."

If as you claim this information was based on what the CSA recognizes as Canada's highest domestic league, it only diminishes the credibility of the CSA even further. They are once again trying to create something that doesn't exist.

"Create something that doesn't exist"? What does that mean? No one is claiming that the CPSL is anything but a regional league. What I'm trying to point out is that amongst this country's regional leagues the CSA recognizes the CPSL as the highest. If you're the guy at CONCACAF and your job was to make the list you'd go through the same logic. What does the CSA (currently) recognize as Canada's highest domestic league? The CPSL. Who are the current champions of that league? Toronto Croatia. Thus Croatia go on the list. It's not some big conspiracy and in the end it really doesn't matter - you're absolutely right that Croatia's players probably don't think of themselves as "national champions." I just think it's nice to see the name of ANY Canadian club on the list... just to remind ourselves that this country isn't a total soccer wasteland.

Mike.

[Richard]

The CPSL is a division three league internationally, one below what was formerly called the A-League. The Pacific Coast Soccer League is also recognised by the CSA and USSF as a division three league, at the same level as the CPSL.

[Luis_Rancagua]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

The CPSL is a division three league internationally, one below what was formerly called the A-League. The Pacific Coast Soccer League is also recognised by the CSA and USSF as a division three league, at the same level as the CPSL.

Although these regional leagues may have the status of division 3, I am very convinced that these leagues could eventually attain division 2 status within 5 years from now. Here are some examples on how the CPSL and the PCSL could reach division 2 status: firts, amalgamate all provincial leagues across Canada under one umbrella; second, introduce open cup championship; three, establish a strong centralise system (single entity) that will oversee the finances of the league and for each individual team; etc... All these issues have already been discussed at last month CPSL's symposium. The results are expected to be released soon, perhaps by the end of January 2005.

[Luis_Rancagua]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

The CPSL is a division three league internationally, one below what was formerly called the A-League. The Pacific Coast Soccer League is also recognised by the CSA and USSF as a division three league, at the same level as the CPSL.

Although these regional leagues may have the status of division 3, I am very convinced that these leagues could eventually attain division 2 status within 5 years from now. Here are some examples on how the CPSL and the PCSL could reach division 2 status: firts, amalgamate all provincial leagues across Canada under one umbrella; second, introduce open cup championship; three, establish a strong centralise system (single entity) that will oversee the finances of the league and for each individual team; etc... All these issues have already been discussed at last month CPSL's symposium. The results are expected to be released soon, perhaps by the end of January 2005.

[Robert]

quote:I just think it's nice to see the name of ANY Canadian club on the list... just to remind ourselves that this country isn't a total soccer wasteland.

Mike.

I share your frustrations, Mike. I too had some glimmer of a feeling when I saw Canada, Toronto Croatia & CPSL listed on the CONCACAF list. If only for the fact that some guy who loves soccer as much as we do and who is sitting at his computer somewhere on a Caribbean Island is looking at that same list and taking a moments notice of US</u>. It resonates with the analogy Daniel used, that the Canadian soccer scene resembles a shotglass. To me it's more like playing with a size 3 soccerball, when the rest of the world uses a size 5. Here we are now, resigned to following the exploits of 15 year olds. That's what's on our national soccer association's home web page today. It's like Neil Davidson writing an article summarizing Canadian soccer for the year 2004 under the banner that things are looking pretty bright after we have been knock-out of every international competition we have entered during the early rounds. Afterall, we have a promising 15 year old girl who plays soccer in Surrey, BC. What I'm trying to get at is that with each of these examples, Canadian soccer's integrity is being compromised. Why can't we be honest about ourselves. Things are not good. Let's quit pretending, creating excuses and doing nothing. Mr. Neil Davidson, I always read with interest anything anyone writes about Canadian soccer. Unfortunately, your last article can not be erased from my memory and I do not hold your writing in the same esteem as before. However, I thank you for the lesson, because it has taught me that many of the things that I have written on these Voyageurs boards and how I have compromised my own integrity and how people value and perceive my writing. For this too, I shall always remember your 2004 Canadian soccer year in review article. I anxiously look forward to you next writing on Canadian soccer and hope it highlights your talents.

Robert

[Robert]

quote:I just think it's nice to see the name of ANY Canadian club on the list... just to remind ourselves that this country isn't a total soccer wasteland.

Mike.

I share your frustrations, Mike. I too had some glimmer of a feeling when I saw Canada, Toronto Croatia & CPSL listed on the CONCACAF list. If only for the fact that some guy who loves soccer as much as we do and who is sitting at his computer somewhere on a Caribbean Island is looking at that same list and taking a moments notice of US</u>. It resonates with the analogy Daniel used, that the Canadian soccer scene resembles a shotglass. To me it's more like playing with a size 3 soccerball, when the rest of the world uses a size 5. Here we are now, resigned to following the exploits of 15 year olds. That's what's on our national soccer association's home web page today. It's like Neil Davidson writing an article summarizing Canadian soccer for the year 2004 under the banner that things are looking pretty bright after we have been knock-out of every international competition we have entered during the early rounds. Afterall, we have a promising 15 year old girl who plays soccer in Surrey, BC. What I'm trying to get at is that with each of these examples, Canadian soccer's integrity is being compromised. Why can't we be honest about ourselves. Things are not good. Let's quit pretending, creating excuses and doing nothing. Mr. Neil Davidson, I always read with interest anything anyone writes about Canadian soccer. Unfortunately, your last article can not be erased from my memory and I do not hold your writing in the same esteem as before. However, I thank you for the lesson, because it has taught me that many of the things that I have written on these Voyageurs boards and how I have compromised my own integrity and how people value and perceive my writing. For this too, I shall always remember your 2004 Canadian soccer year in review article. I anxiously look forward to you next writing on Canadian soccer and hope it highlights your talents.

Robert

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by Luis_Rancagua

Although these regional leagues may have the status of division 3, I am very convinced that these leagues could eventually attain division 2 status within 5 years from now. Here are some examples on how the CPSL and the PCSL could reach division 2 status: firts, amalgamate all provincial leagues across Canada under one umbrella; second, introduce open cup championship; three, establish a strong centralise system (single entity) that will oversee the finances of the league and for each individual team; etc... All these issues have already been discussed at last month CPSL's symposium. The results are expected to be released soon, perhaps by the end of January 2005.

Excellent idea Luis. I enjoy your drive in seeking solutions to our challenges. Hopefully, one of them will get used someday. If there was a builders category in the Voyageurs Hall of Fame, I would nominate both you and s.j.

[Richard]

The PCSL is a very successful league as it is with managable costs for member clubs. There is no real incentive to merge with other regional leagues and even less incentive to relinquish any control to yet another level of bureaucracy - we revel in our independence. The CPSL has already approached the PCSL, more than once, but can offer little if anything meaningful to the league or its member clubs except added cost.

[Michael Crampton]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

The CPSL is a division three league internationally, one below what was formerly called the A-League. The Pacific Coast Soccer League is also recognised by the CSA and USSF as a division three league, at the same level as the CPSL.

Now don't jump all over me if I'm wrong cause I'm going from memory but it was my impression that in Canada the CSA recognizes the A-League as Div.1, CPSL as a Div.2 league and PCSL as a Div.3 league. I know other people have brought up that the CPSL does not meet international standards (FIFA) for a Div.2 league but I seem to remember them always trumpetting that the CSA recognizes them as such. Nothing against the PCSL btw... the standard of play there probably almost exactly equals the CPSL only in the CPSL some of the players do get paid (occasionally).

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Mike.

[Michael Crampton]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

The PCSL is a very successful league as it is with managable costs for member clubs. There is no real incentive to merge with other regional leagues and even less incentive to relinquish any control to yet another level of bureaucracy - we revel in our independence. The CPSL has already approached the PCSL, more than once, but can offer little if anything meaningful to the league or its member clubs except added cost.

On another tack when does the PCSL season end? Would it be feasible (if the CSA helped financially) for the PCSL champion to play the CPSL champion in a home-and-home series?

Mike.