The Best Concacaf League

[Montry]

On Bigsoccer.com there is at discussion about who are the best leagues on Concacaf. I would like to have your opinions about this, and also how the Canadians A-league teams compare to the top teams from our Confederation.

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66942

[bettermirror]

the fraser valley men's premier league!

[amacpher]

Talent-wise the Mexican league is alot better than the MLS. And I think the MLS will get weaker in the years to come. Expansion and players leaving for better leagues at a faster rate should contribute to that.

quote:Originally posted by Montry

On Bigsoccer.com there is at discussion about who are the best leagues on Concacaf. I would like to have your opinions about this, and also how the Canadians A-league teams compare to the top teams from our Confederation.

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66942

[Montry]

Interesting point of view. Most MLS fans are convinced that the MLS is going to become one of the best soccer leagues in the world, for them is just matter of time.

quote:Originally posted by amacpher

Talent-wise the Mexican league is alot better than the MLS. And I think the MLS will get weaker in the years to come. Expansion and players leaving for better leagues at a faster rate should contribute to that.

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by Montry

Interesting point of view. Most MLS fans are convinced that the MLS is going to become one of the best soccer leagues in the world, for them is just matter of time.

????????

Wonder what would make them think that?

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Montry

Interesting point of view. Most MLS fans are convinced that the MLS is going to become one of the best soccer leagues in the world, for them is just matter of time.

Yeah, I laugh too when I hear that. I think the problem is some people think the success or improvement of a country's national team is related to that country's domestic league. Right. And I guess Real Madrid would get relagated if they moved into the South Korean first division.

[Montry]

True, but they just hear what they want to hear.

quote:Originally posted by amacpher

Yeah, I laugh too when I hear that. I think the problem is some people think the success or improvement of a country's national team is related to that country's domestic league. Right. And I guess Real Madrid would get relagated if they moved into the South Korean first division.

[Crazy_Yank]

Anyone who think MLS will only get weaker really doesn't know a whole lot about US soccer or how a proper youth development structure works. Are you trying to say that if all MLS teams had full scale youth academies and reserve teams the product would be weaker than it is now? Does that make any sense at all? MLS has found a model to run a profitable soccer franchise. Soccer stadiums are the key. Once the stadiums are in place the salary cap can be raised, etc.....Some may wish for MLS to become weaker for whatever reason, but isn't going to happen.

[Crazy_Yank]

quote:Originally posted by Montry

On Bigsoccer.com there is at discussion about who are the best leagues on Concacaf. I would like to have your opinions about this, and also how the Canadians A-league teams compare to the top teams from our Confederation.

They would get whipped pretty bad. They might be able to take an odd result, but that's about it. None of the a-league teams could compete with concacaf's best.

[matthew]

I'm pretty sure the Canadian A-League teams would be near the top in all of major central American leagues. I don't see them competing with the Alajuelense, Olympia in Honduras, Saprissa, Communicationes or Municipal. But I think Montreal would be top five in Costa Rica, Honduras, Jamaica, Guatemala, etc. Maybe I'm way off the mark, but it seems like most of those leagues have a SPL idea of franchise parity.

While some of these top teams in central america can beat MLS and MFL teams, I think the top to bottom depth of the two major leagues is worlds different. I don't think any of the A-League teams could compete in the MFL and I think Montreal could probably finish ahead of Dallas, but the Burn are giving worst MLS team ever the old college try.

It would be great to actually enter a Concacaf tournament and see how close or far off we are.

I don't know if MLS is going to continue to grow talent wise. It's in a weird place, where a lot of their name players are past their prime and a lot of their best players are still very young. How long will guys like Ralph and Eddie Gaven stay in the league? I never imagined the develop players and sell them to Europe model would go so young. Selling Convey at 20 and giving guys like Gaven starts at 16 (or however old he is) is good for US nats youth development, but how good is it for the league? If these youth development guys never wind up having MLS careers the league's reputation gets stronger, but the actual league doesn't gain a whole lot in my opinion.

cheers,

matthew

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Crazy_Yank

Anyone who think MLS will only get weaker really doesn't know a whole lot about US soccer or how a proper youth development structure works. Are you trying to say that if all MLS teams had full scale youth academies and reserve teams the product would be weaker than it is now? Does that make any sense at all? MLS has found a model to run a profitable soccer franchise. Soccer stadiums are the key. Once the stadiums are in place the salary cap can be raised, etc.....Some may wish for MLS to become weaker for whatever reason, but isn't going to happen.

Everything you’re saying would be true if not for the increasing number of top-MLS players leaving for other leagues. And I don’t see top European players falling over themselves to put on a Dallas Burn uniform anytime soon! This "net-loss" of player quality far outweighs the net-gain that might be produced from improved youth development leagues in the US. Ergo, MLS will get weaker and weaker. But maybe I’m just being overly optimistic here!

[The Ref]

quote:Originally posted by Crazy_Yank

Anyone who think MLS will only get weaker really doesn't know a whole lot about US soccer or how a proper youth development structure works.

I had to jump into this discussion. I will not make a prediction whether the MLS will get better or stay stagnant. Hard to predict the future. But allow me to say that a country and its soccer league to succeed need to have its own unique soccer style. It's own heroes with that style. This model or style is what youth players try to copy and use as their image of soccer greatness. With all due respect, I don't believe the MLS as representant of the U.S. has a style of their own at this time. It may be very successful financially and that is comendable, but it needs to earn more respect on the field.

[Crazy_Yank]

quote:Originally posted by The Ref

I had to jump into this discussion. I will not make a prediction whether the MLS will get better or stay stagnant. Hard to predict the future. But allow me to say that a country and its soccer league to succeed need to have its own unique soccer style. It's own heroes with that style. This model or style is what youth players try to copy and use as their image of soccer greatness. With all due respect, I don't believe the MLS as representant of the U.S. has a style of their own at this time. It may be very successful financially and that is comendable, but it needs to earn more respect on the field.

That's because the US doesn't have a defined style. We can play a lot of different ways and aren't locked into a defined style. Also, we haven't been around long enough to have developed one. If you want to see what I think will be the US style watch how San Jose and Chicago play, who also happen to be a lot better than everyone else. It involves a very high work rate and immediate pressure on the opponent with the ball. In order to do this you need quick athletic players who can counter attack very well and can dribble in tight spaces. They can also play a very good possession game when on offense. This system can be done very well without a true number 10, which the US lacks.

[Crazy_Yank]

quote:Originally posted by amacpher

Everything you’re saying would be true if not for the increasing number of top-MLS players leaving for other leagues. And I don’t see top European players falling over themselves to put on a Dallas Burn uniform anytime soon! This "net-loss" of player quality far outweighs the net-gain that might be produced from improved youth development leagues in the US. Ergo, MLS will get weaker and weaker. But maybe I’m just being overly optimistic here!

You're assuming there is going to be this mass exodus, which just won't happen. Sure the best are going to leave for brighter pastures. That happens in every league except the big 4. Right now having youngsters replacing departing veterans doesn't seem to be hurting the league. The reason being is due to the far superior training they've received. Right now we have our best crop of rookies. Obviously as salary caps increase fewer players will leave.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Crazy_Yank

Anyone who think MLS will only get weaker really doesn't know a whole lot about US soccer or how a proper youth development structure works. Are you trying to say that if all MLS teams had full scale youth academies and reserve teams the product would be weaker than it is now? Does that make any sense at all? MLS has found a model to run a profitable soccer franchise. Soccer stadiums are the key. Once the stadiums are in place the salary cap can be raised, etc.....Some may wish for MLS to become weaker for whatever reason, but isn't going to happen.

Do you really think the US system is a "proper youth development structure"? The only real differences over what I see in Canada is Bradenton, and the MLS P-40 program. Now those are real advantages over what we have in terms of 1) producing cohesive national youth teams and 2) giving pro opportunities to a small number of top prospects. But really,I'd say that pretty much all of Europe, all of South America and, in CONCACAF, at the very least, Mexico have better systems than the US for developing youth players.

The MLS, is great. But it is by no means a significant part of the american sports pysche. Attendance is dropping this year, they have always needed the USSF to hold double headers to prop up the numbers somewhat. The TV rights had to be packaged with a two men's and 1 women's world cups and garnered chump change in any event. The MLS has benefited from some players who could be playing at a higher level opting to stay and play in the US for salaries less than what they could make elsewhere. Will they do that forwever? The concept that it could get weaker is not totally completely far fetched, especially as expansion alway dilutes the quality of play. It happen in every pro league in North America.

As for the youth system, they are producing some good players, but they are no better than the players being produced in Costa Rica, Mexico and even Canada (at least this time around). Adu is outstanding, but is an aberation. But even with him this version of the U-17 was no better or worse than Costa Rica, Mexico or Canada. Same is true of the U-20s. Don't get me wrong, there are some good players coming up, but more and more you are going to see these good players being scooped by European teams. Of the three players of real note on the US U-17 team, one, Spector, is already there, Szetsla (Sorry, I know I buggered the spelling of that) and Adu are attracting the attention of European clubs. While I know many american soccer fans view Adu as a motherload for the MLS, it is more likely that Adu signs with Real, Man U or some other big club.

In terms of youth deveopment, BTW, I think Bradenton actually does not do a whole lot of useful development work. And I think it shows in games like Spain, Brazil and even Sierra Leone. Now if they took the best 200 prospects for both U-17 and U-20, and ran an in house league with sufficient coaching, then it might accomplish something. But right now all it does is produce cohesive youth teams. The best news for American soccer, and Canadian too, is that teams with real youth development systems are interested in bring in american (and Canadian) kids into their programs. One thing we learn from Hockey is that only a handful of the top 20-30 players at 15 or 16 are going to be in the top 20 players at 22. The same is true in any sport.

When I watch the MLS, I see that there is a pretty big gap between the top, say 2 or 3, American players on most teams and the bottom 3 or 4. I'd say there were probably 20-24 American players who could be playing at higher league levels in Europe. Sooner or later, unless the salary cap move upward, they are going to opt for the money. And with a declining attendance and no real TV money, along with the laudable efforts to construct SS stadia, I don't see how that is going to happen any time soon. And I'd not jump onto the SSS bandwagon as the model for a profitable soccer club to quickly. Yes it is better to get all of the revenue streams rather than not, but SSS cost money and ultimately, you need bums in seats and a decent television contract to finance their construction and operation. Stadium construction has been held out as the saviour of struggling franchises in other sports and at the end of the day, have failed to deliver over the long haul. A declining MLS attendance base should be a concern. And if San Jose, playing very attractive soccer, with the most marketable asset in american soccer, struggles to draw 12,000, I'd say there was reason for caution.

The game is in better shape in the US than Canada, and I for one hope that the MLS can grow to a 20 team league, with strong youth acadamies, drawing 30,000+ per game and that something equivalent can flourish in Canada. I don't wish any ill on the MLS at all. But I can see its limitation and its obstacles.

[Crazy_Yank]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Do you really think the US system is a "proper youth development structure"? The only real differences over what I see in Canada is Bradenton, and the MLS P-40 program. Now those are real advantages over what we have in terms of 1) producing cohesive national youth teams and 2) giving pro opportunities to a small number of top prospects. But really,I'd say that pretty much all of Europe, all of South America and, in CONCACAF, at the very least, Mexico have better systems than the US for developing youth players.

The MLS, is great. But it is by no means a significant part of the american sports pysche. Attendance is dropping this year, they have always needed the USSF to hold double headers to prop up the numbers somewhat. The TV rights had to be packaged with a two men's and 1 women's world cups and garnered chump change in any event. The MLS has benefited from some players who could be playing at a higher level opting to stay and play in the US for salaries less than what they could make elsewhere. Will they do that forwever? The concept that it could get weaker is not totally completely far fetched, especially as expansion alway dilutes the quality of play. It happen in every pro league in North America.

As for the youth system, they are producing some good players, but they are no better than the players being produced in Costa Rica, Mexico and even Canada (at least this time around). Adu is outstanding, but is an aberation. But even with him this version of the U-17 was no better or worse than Costa Rica, Mexico or Canada. Same is true of the U-20s. Don't get me wrong, there are some good players coming up, but more and more you are going to see these good players being scooped by European teams. Of the three players of real note on the US U-17 team, one, Spector, is already there, Szetsla (Sorry, I know I buggered the spelling of that) and Adu are attracting the attention of European clubs. While I know many american soccer fans view Adu as a motherload for the MLS, it is more likely that Adu signs with Real, Man U or some other big club.

In terms of youth deveopment, BTW, I think Bradenton actually does not do a whole lot of useful development work. And I think it shows in games like Spain, Brazil and even Sierra Leone. Now if they took the best 200 prospects for both U-17 and U-20, and ran an in house league with sufficient coaching, then it might accomplish something. But right now all it does is produce cohesive youth teams. The best news for American soccer, and Canadian too, is that teams with real youth development systems are interested in bring in american (and Canadian) kids into their programs. One thing we learn from Hockey is that only a handful of the top 20-30 players at 15 or 16 are going to be in the top 20 players at 22. The same is true in any sport.

When I watch the MLS, I see that there is a pretty big gap between the top, say 2 or 3, American players on most teams and the bottom 3 or 4. I'd say there were probably 20-24 American players who could be playing at higher league levels in Europe. Sooner or later, unless the salary cap move upward, they are going to opt for the money. And with a declining attendance and no real TV money, along with the laudable efforts to construct SS stadia, I don't see how that is going to happen any time soon. And I'd not jump onto the SSS bandwagon as the model for a profitable soccer club to quickly. Yes it is better to get all of the revenue streams rather than not, but SSS cost money and ultimately, you need bums in seats and a decent television contract to finance their construction and operation. Stadium construction has been held out as the saviour of struggling franchises in other sports and at the end of the day, have failed to deliver over the long haul. A declining MLS attendance base should be a concern. And if San Jose, playing very attractive soccer, with the most marketable asset in american soccer, struggles to draw 12,000, I'd say there was reason for caution.

The game is in better shape in the US than Canada, and I for one hope that the MLS can grow to a 20 team league, with strong youth acadamies, drawing 30,000+ per game and that something equivalent can flourish in Canada. I don't wish any ill on the MLS at all. But I can see its limitation and its obstacles.

First off, where in any of my posts did I say the US has a proper developmental model in place? I very clearly pointed out this could be improved tremendously. Reread my post and you will see. Your assertion that Costa Rica, Mexico, and particularly Canada, produce the same quality youth players as the US is mere speculation that cannot be backed up with facts. US youth teams have out performed every other country in concacaf by a long shot. Almost any Mexican fan will admitt how crappy their developmental system.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Crazy_Yank

Right now having youngsters replacing departing veterans doesn't seem to be hurting the league.

Losing veterans is one thing. Beasley is headed for Spain! How old is he 19,20?

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Crazy_Yank

First off, where in any of my posts did I say the US has a proper developmental model in place? I very clearly pointed out this could be improved tremendously. Reread my post and you will see. Your assertion that Costa Rica, Mexico, and particularly Canada, produce the same quality youth players as the US is mere speculation that cannot be backed up with facts. US youth teams have out performed every other country in concacaf by a long shot. Almost any Mexican fan will admitt how crappy their developmental system.

Obviously I misunderstood the intent of this statement:

quote:Originally posted by Crazy_Yank

Anyone who think MLS will only get weaker really doesn't know a whole lot about US soccer or how a proper youth development structure works.

I thought you were suggesting that the US had a "proper youth development structure" in place with the statement.

We may be arguing about different things when it comes to youth development system. The Mexicans are better at making their young soccer players into good pro's. The results of youth team's really don't apply in this regard IMO. The MLF is deeper and more talented across the board because they do a better job of developing younger players through their club system. This admittedly, can lead to crappy international result at the youth level. Youth results don't mean a whole a lot although they are nice to get. My reference to Canada did say "this time around" in brackets. This may just be a blip, but this time around, Canada was equal to the US in both U-17 and U-20 by any reasonable evaluative criteria. If you want to get strictly into results you could say the U-17 was a little better of the two and the Canadian U-20 was a little better of the two, but really, for all intents and purposes, the teams were equal. Now an optimist would say that this is the result of changes made over the past half dozen years in Canada. But I will concede that this could just be a generational blip. We would have to do it a few more times before I'd be willing to take "this time around" out as a qualifier.

Now none of this is to say that the US is not producing some very good youth players. There are some great young players coming out of the US. Clearly the difference between 1990 and 2003 is almost beyond measure.

Let me ask you this, if the MLS develops their own youth teams, where and who will they play? It would seem that they would have to stay in the region, i.e. Chicago Fire are not going to send their Youth team to play games in San Jose, Dallas and NY/NJ are they? Its all well and fine to pull together a youth team, and make sure they get good coaching and training, but unlike London or Liverpool or Madrid, there are not other teams in the region/City that can provide a real test. And playing against adults is risky depending on ages due to physical differences although I suppose this could be an alternative. How do you see this working?

[Crazy_Yank]

The Super Y league has been working very well. There isn't any reason MLS youth sides couldn't play in it. Some already do.

[Montry]

So Crazy_Yank, What you think is the best league of CONCACAF?

[DJT]

This post by Crazy_Yank</u>

Mods,

Sorry to start a new thread about this, but the old one wouldn't let me post a reply. It said I wasn't logged in when I was. Merge this if you see fit.

Done!</u>

Anyways.......

MFL by a long shot. Followed by MLS, then Costa Rica's top flight. No coincidence these are the top 3 national teams.