Grizzly Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard I wouldn't base any comparison on the performance of one player. Stuff like the relatively low UEFA coefficients of the Scandanavian leagues is also important as well. They are indeed relatively low compared to some other European leagues. However, what are you comparing with these statistics, how the MLS stacks up against Norway or how Norway stacks up against EPL, Bundesliga, Russian league, etc? I don't see the MLS listed there and if it was I think it would probably be somewhere around where Norway and Denmark are. In fact, it may even be lower because it has parity and does not have top clubs that are way above the league level and give it a higher rank than it deserves. The MLS teams have not exactly excelled in CONCACAF club competitions so there is no basis for saying they would be a top 15 league in Europe. There is no reason to be arrogant against MLS like many Eurosnobs are. It is as good as many 1st division European leagues that get more respect. On the other hand we shouldn't overrate it either and say just because an injured, not in top form Reda has struggled at TFC this means MLS is superior to the Norwegian and Danish leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john tv Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 Hi and hey Grizzly I have never been able to understand that expression Euroslob. I really have never met one and what are they suppose to say or do so i know what they are. Do you know anyone personally who is "a" euroslob, i would love to talk to him just to find out what this phenomena is,please. I do know that TFC is doing quite well stacking them up against the above figures and from what i have been able to tell those that go seemed to have a high degree of foreign and primarely European backgraound as well. Peace Grizz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 The thing that strikes me about that table is that it has Romania ahead of Germany & Holland..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john tv Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 G.L,in Holland they watch the MLS instead.(joke,just in case) It seems to me that if you take out the big stadia in Holland with the big teaqms those figures really become quite smaller. I remember over the years reviewing the attendance of these smaller teams in smaller cities population wise it was always around the 7 or 8000 mark. Than again Holland is a small country with a population of around 16 million. It is even more striking that these teams sometimes are less than a tens of kilometers apart, or even have several in one city. In fact london has many teams both in the EPL and first divisions.The NHL would never go for this and than these stadia only hold about 16000 and up in the N.A cities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca The thing that strikes me about that table is that it has Romania ahead of Germany & Holland..... The table BBTB listed is actually not complete, it will not be accurate until the 07/08 season is over. The most recent ranking for the end of the 06/07 season is available here: http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2007.html The ranking is based on how well clubs do during CL and UC matches. I don't really want to go into how it works. But I personally think its a fair assessment of where each nations top leagues are ranked. Romania is ranked so high because its clubs had a couple of decent seasons. As for Scandinavia's decline, in a recent Intertoto match, Hammarby could only manage a 1-1 tie against Cork City of Ireland. That pretty much says it all. I can't remember the last time a Swedish club did anything of significance in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca The thing that strikes me about that table is that it has Romania ahead of Germany & Holland..... The table BBTB listed is actually not complete, it will not be accurate until the 07/08 season is over. The most recent ranking for the end of the 06/07 season is available here: http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2007.html The ranking is based on how well clubs do during CL and UC matches. I don't really want to go into how it works. But I personally think its a fair assessment of where each nations top leagues are ranked. Romania is ranked so high because its clubs had a couple of decent seasons. As for Scandinavia's decline, in a recent Intertoto match, Hammarby could only manage a 1-1 tie against Cork City of Ireland. That pretty much says it all. I can't remember the last time a Swedish club did anything of significance in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca The thing that strikes me about that table is that it has Romania ahead of Germany & Holland..... That will sort itself out over the next few seasons as more Romanian clubs get to qualify and the smaller Romanian clubs struggle to make an impression bringing down the overall average coefficient. Right now they are doing very well based on the performance of only the big Bucharest teams like Steaua, Dinamo and Rapid over the past two seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 quote:Originally posted by john tv Hi and hey Grizzly I have never been able to understand that expression Euroslob. I really have never met one and what are they suppose to say or do so i know what they are. Do you know anyone personally who is "a" euroslob, i would love to talk to him just to find out what this phenomena is,please. I do know that TFC is doing quite well stacking them up against the above figures and from what i have been able to tell those that go seemed to have a high degree of foreign and primarely European backgraound as well. Peace Grizz. John, I think if you went to one of the Portugal games you would have met half a stadium of Eurosnobs most of whom weren't even born in Europe. Eurosnobs are the people that think if something is European it is automatically better than something that is Canadian and are particularly prevelent in the soccer world, ie. all the Benefica supporters who would never attend a TFC match (except maybe the friendly against Benefica) or all the born in Canada people that only support their ethnic national teams. I don't agree with Massive Attack that the UEFA league rating is a fair assessment of the leagues. It is, however, a fair assessment of how the top teams in each league compare to each other which does give some indication of league strength. The system favour leagues with a few strong clubs as opposed to balanced leagues. Thus, Scotland for example is usually rated higher than it deserves on the strength of Celtic and Rangers. An accurate league comparison would have to compare mid and lower table teams as well. There is some adjustment for unbalanced leagues in that the higher your ranking the more teams you get in European competitions (which is the purpose of the table in the first place, to see how many teams each league deserves in various competitions). The number of points earned is divided by the number of teams entered. The Romania result is an anomoly that occurs occasionally. Romania has had only three clubs entered in CL and UEFA Cup and all have done very well over the last two years earning a lot of points. Since there are only three teams, the points are only divided by three and the result is a very high number of points in the final calculation. With their current ranking they will probably have 6 teams in competitions next year. As the fourth to sixth place Romanian teams will probably be much weaker than the three teams from Bucharest, their point totals will be much reduced and in a year or two they will drop to where they belong probably around 15. The Romanian league is still quite underrated even though in this system it is overrated. A similar thing happened some years ago when Israel got far too high in the rankings based on a good run by a couple of clubs but they are now back to 19th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 quote: The MLS teams have not exactly excelled in CONCACAF club competitions so there is no basis for saying they would be a top 15 league in Europe. Worth noting that tournament is played at the early stages of MLS's preseason. Despite that MLS teams have won it twice and been runners up once. This season DC United got invited to Copa Sudamericana based on being beaten semifinalists. Losing to a top Mexican club like Chivas 2-3 on aggregate in the semis was certainly no disgrace. Worth noting that Houston Dynamo took Pachuca to extra time in the other semi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard Worth noting that tournament is played at the early stages of MLS's preseason. Despite that MLS teams have won it twice and been runners up once. This season DC United got invited to Copa Sudamericana based on being beaten semifinalists. Losing to a top Mexican club like Chivas 2-3 on aggregate in the semis was certainly no disgrace. Worth noting that Houston Dynamo took Pachuca to extra time in the other semi. They have entered the tournament for 20 years and have won it only twice and become runner up only once. The last time an MLS team made the final was in 2000 when LA won the tournament. That is not exactly what I would call excelling. Don't forget that this is an 8 team tournament so it is not that hard to advance. Winning one tie gets you into the semis and two ties into the final. Nor is MLS the only team that has to play in such tournaments in the offseason. Russia and the Scandanavian leagues all play a summer season and are thus out of season during CL and UEFA. The Russians still manage to get pretty good results and if you are going to use this excuse for the MLS it would apply equally to the Scandanavian teams whose results you are knocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 MLS is in its 12th season so not sure where you get the 20 years thing from. The Mexican League is so far ahead of the rest that drawing sweeping conclusions based on total victories for the other nations is not particularly sensible. The Russians and Scandanavians actually have a major advantage in the qualifiers for the Champions League and UEFA cup given they are at midseason while many of the other countries are in preseason. That fact only compounds just how bad the UEFA coefficients are in the case of the Scandanavian countries as it is worth noting that the Rep. of Ireland noticeably improved their performance in that regard since switching to a summer season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 quote:MLS is in its 12th season so not sure where you get the 20 years thing from. Bad math. Still two victories and one runner up placement is not that impressive in 11 years of an eight team competition. quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard The Mexican League is so far ahead of the rest that drawing sweeping conclusions based on total victories for the other nations is not particularly sensible. The Mexican league is the strongest in the region but is still pretty far from the strongest European leagues in playing level. The only other decent league in the region is the Costa Rican one so it is not exactly the toughest competition in the world. quote:The Russians and Scandanavians actually have a major advantage in the qualifiers for the Champions League and UEFA cup given they are at midseason while many of the other countries are in preseason. That fact only compounds just how bad the UEFA coefficients are in the case of the Scandanavian countries as it is worth noting that the Rep. of Ireland noticeably improved their performance in that regard since switching to a summer season. Qualification matches only receive half points and are the easiest matches as many small teams play in this round. To get a good league ranking the teams have to advance far into the tournaments. It is a far greater advantage to be in mid-season during the tournaments proper than during qualification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 I don't tend to get into line by line rebuttal flamewars with people. Instead I usually try to state my own case in a positive way. Qualification for the Champions League and UEFA Cup groups stages is the key factor for countries with coefficients like Norway and Sweden. Few teams from these countries ever make it past Christmas as the latter stages tend to be dominated by teams from the top half dozen or so leagues so what happens in the latter stages when they are on their winter break is not so consequential in determining the rankings lower down the list. I think you underestimate the Mexican League. It is the strongest financially in all of Latin America and tends to lose comparatively few top domestic players to Europe and is able to attract a lot of players from the rest of Latin America as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard I don't tend to get into line by line rebuttal flamewars with people. Instead I usually try to state my own case in a positive way. You are my hero. I wish we all could be so noble like you. We really need a rolleyes icon on this board. quote: Qualification for the Champions League and UEFA Cup groups stages is the key factor for countries with coefficients like Norway and Sweden. Few teams from these countries ever make it past Christmas as the latter stages tend to be dominated by teams from the top half dozen or so leagues so what happens in the latter stages when they are on their winter break is not so consequential in determining the rankings lower down the list. There is some truth to that regarding Champions League. It is not true in the UEFA Cup. quote:I think you underestimate the Mexican League. It is the strongest financially in all of Latin America and tends to lose comparatively few top domestic players to Europe and is able to attract a lot of players from the rest of Latin America as well. The Mexican league is a solid league. Whether it would be a top 10 league in Europe is pretty debateable. If the MLS teams are so much better than the Scandanavian teams as you say they should be able to beat the Mexican teams more often than they are. The MLS is improving and may well soon start to beat the Mexican teams but I think if they were playing European competitions they would be ranked around where Norway and Denmark is in the 18th to 21st spot. Mexico would probably be somewhere from 10 to 15. The Mexican league would probably be a bit more balanced though than some of the teams ranked ahead of them because it is not structured to have a couple of strong teams that can win competition like many of the lesser European leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 Regarding Mexico and other leagues with apertura/clausura. And add to that the little groups in Mexico. I think that it distorts which team is really the best over the year, maybe I am not a close observer but sometimes I just don't get it, I get the feeling that the clubs winning and getting into the Concacaf club championship are often not the best, but the ones that had a good streak the previous season. As they start the club championship just a short time after their season ends, the teams are pretty well intact, which is a help. As for Europe, it is true that the northern leagues are in fuller swing when the European competition begins, but remember that for Norway, for example, those competing in early rounds in late July or August were the sides that did well in the previous season, meaning ending in late October of the previous year. So they are in full season, but the teams have usually changed considerably, it is not often the same side that won a league or did well that is in European competition 8 months later. And that is a disadvantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john tv Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly John, I think if you went to one of the Portugal games you would have met half a stadium of Eurosnobs most of whom weren't even born in Europe. Eurosnobs are the people that think if something is European it is automatically better than something that is Canadian and are particularly prevelent in the soccer world, ie. all the Benefica supporters who would never attend a TFC match (except maybe the friendly against Benefica) or all the born in Canada people that only support their ethnic national teams. I don't agree with Massive Attack that the UEFA league rating is a fair assessment of the leagues. It is, however, a fair assessment of how the top teams in each league compare to each other which does give some indication of league strength. The system favour leagues with a few strong clubs as opposed to balanced leagues. Thus, Scotland for example is usually rated higher than it deserves on the strength of Celtic and Rangers. An accurate league comparison would have to compare mid and lower table teams as well. There is some adjustment for unbalanced leagues in that the higher your ranking the more teams you get in European competitions (which is the purpose of the table in the first place, to see how many teams each league deserves in various competitions). The number of points earned is divided by the number of teams entered. The Romania result is an anomoly that occurs occasionally. Romania has had only three clubs entered in CL and UEFA Cup and all have done very well over the last two years earning a lot of points. Since there are only three teams, the points are only divided by three and the result is a very high number of points in the final calculation. With their current ranking they will probably have 6 teams in competitions next year. As the fourth to sixth place Romanian teams will probably be much weaker than the three teams from Bucharest, their point totals will be much reduced and in a year or two they will drop to where they belong probably around 15. The Romanian league is still quite underrated even though in this system it is overrated. A similar thing happened some years ago when Israel got far too high in the rankings based on a good run by a couple of clubs but they are now back to 19th. Grizz i just don't like that description Euro slob. I don't think it is neccessary and also believe it to be inappropiate. I have spoken to many Euro's i guess and i have never ever been told that this and that.It seems obvious to me that these TFC fans are all or most of foreign backgrounds, at least that is what the stats tell us. I have given my TFC seats to Portugueese Italien and Canadian installers, they were happy as heck to go and enjoyed it as well. In fact that is why I bought these extra seats to give it to my guys. They never ever downplayed the TFC team. Things are changing rapidly in the world of soccer and foremost in canada. If there are people that feel that European soccer is better well i guess they will also tell you in the same breath that Canadians play the best hockey in the world. There is nothing wrong with that and only a challenge i believe. it just does not warrant that expression. I just whish you would not use that term please. There must be another way to describe certain non Canadian but living in Canada soccer fans. PS how do you like the CD. peace again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 John, it is Eurosnob, not slob. And I can guarantee you people talk to you differently because of who you are. I get very tired of European people hammering me because I like soccer. I am NOT making this up. The cafe I am in right now is owned by a couple from (edit just in case anyone knows who they are). Yesterday they were berating me for even going to these games at all. You have to be European to truly love the game...blah blah blah... The wife then proceeded to talk about what a shame it was that players in Europe were always changing the national team they played for. That it was terrible that the Italian 'Ronaldo' switched teams and played for France. This is not a joke. WTF. I hear this kind of crap ALL THE TIME. She just needed to 'say' something. She needed to exercise her 'superiority' on this subject and started spewing crap. It is a process that repeats itself often. It is probably worse for me because I worked in soccer for nearly 7 years. I became acutely aware of who NOT to tell this to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john tv Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 You got me, I truly can say that i have never ever run into this stuff. I obviously run into Canadians who really don't like this game and that is a very well known fact,but this Euronob bus,as I said you got me. What she seems to be saying that since you are a Canadian you should not go to these games.I really don't understand her logic. I am also at loss about players changing national teams. I know that once you play for a National side you can't play etc. i suppose you meant a top team in europe etc.I really don't know what that has to do with this Euro crap.She seems to question the way europeans do things and that she may,but what does that mean in this context. Yap that soccer buzz is quite intriging and becoming the talk of the town,but i can assure you coming from this Eurosnob, I really think and believe that Canadian soccer will be one day just as grand as hockey and that we will once again be one of the top nations in soccer. Hey i gave you that article which clearly said Canada still World Champion in Football. That was the ultimate in Canadian snobbery and i just love it,just magic stuff and you know something they even believed it which is even better. Sounds good he, Canada still Worldchampion in Football. This was in the newspapers in 1905 and you have a copy of that article. This motivated me to no end. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 John, Eurosnob does not refer to every European. In fact, there are probably as many born in Canada Eurosnobs as born in Europe ones and of the born in Canada Eurosnobs many are several generation Canadians. Eurosnob refers to people who have an illusory belief in the superiority of things European, in our context soccer, and refuse to respect/follow anything else. This is not to deny that European soccer is indeed superior to Canadian but not to the extent that these people pretend it is. For example, for someone to claim the Portugese league is better than MLS is not Eurosnobbery as it is common sense. A Eurosnob would claim that the Portugese 3rd division is better than MLS and refuse to attend MLS games. The Portugese who attend TFC games are not Eurosnobs. The Portugese (probably all Canadian born) who Speedmonk and I met at the Portugal-New Zealand game were indeed Eurosnobs who besides being total assholes also were constantly putting down Canadian soccer. By the same token you are not a Eurosnob even though you are European because you are interested in Canadian soccer. Being Dutch probably gives you some respect among Eurosnobs so they probably don't say the same things to you that they would to me and Speedmonk. I think if one went to a Manchester United broadcast at a soccer bar one could probably find a fair number of Eurosnobs who are Canadian born and not even of British descent. I seem to remember Hargreaves had a youth coach who was not even English yet was totally fixated on the England national team and always told Hargreaves he should play for them and is now extatic that he does. Such people are not really soccer fans or true Canadians in my opinion but rather pathetic people who need to fixate to some cause to give their life meaning. The CD is great. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john tv Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Interested in Canadian soccer yah right how about I believe something close to an obsession. Just assume that no society is equal to another. If people compare Canada in an unfavourable position compared to Europe I don't know if this is Euro stuff or maybe just a fact. I can think of boatloads of things that are better in Canada and visa versa. They maybe even correct. Of all things I had somebody in my office from Holland tonight who was transferred from Holland three months ago.He said that Canada is behind in certain things as well as saying that Canada is ahead in certain things. This all makes sense.If you want a glaring example i suggest you all see that movie sicko.I have not seen it but know enough to say,Europe is way ahead of the US and maybe even Canada.I have made comments in the past about that horrible difference and how many Americans are in very deep shut.It is very close to being criminal. Things are never equal between nations and I believe that Canada probably has the overall best way of living. These same people said that things are cheaper than Europe definitely feel that restaurants are a lot cheaper and that the gas is cheaper as well.They also said that their children who went to school for a couple of weeks complained about the Canadian children being overweight these are kids talking,the drunk and kid story.They also believed that the Canadian universities in specialized schooling are better than the European ones while they also believed that Europeans are more creative. So many good and bad stuff. this all is so necessary in life that challenge to do better and only benefits everybody in the long run.Call it what you like but it all serves humanity and they did say that they liked Canada very much. Told them to go to the island with the three kids. U don't know what you call all that stuff but there it is,the good and the bad although nothing is really bad just different. I believe that we Canadians are just as guilty when we compare or criticize the US for their differences between our two countries and I really don't know what you call that. Now about soccer...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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