argh1 Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 Both TSN and RDS are showing Barcelona/Chelsea and Arsenal/Réal as the afternoon games on Tuesday and Wednesday and TSN has Juve/Bremen and Liverpool/Benfica as the late night games. RDS is showing the Inter/Ajax game on the 14th Besides wanting to bitch that I wanted Lyon/PSV and Villaréal/Rangers. I guess Chelsea got thier backs against it. I'll let others figure out what they need with away goals. Would a 0-0 draw do it for Bremen? Liverpool has to win at home and hold Benfica basically scoreless. Arsenal have the away goal win so that should put them in command. One of these days I'll understand all the ins and outs of the away goals rule [] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJT Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 Telelatino has Juventus vs. Werder Bremen live on Tuesday and Milan vs. Bayern Munchen live on Wednesday, with repeats of each at 8 PM EST on the same day. They will also have Inter vs. Ajax live on the 14th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Anyone catch the Chelsea-Barca match? Got busy and didn't even catch highlights. Think Liverpool-Benfica is going to be a barn stormer. We'll see. Got to catch that one for sure. For away matchs count your Goals For as 2 for each one scored. For home matchs it would only count as 1. This will only ever matter if match points (3 for a win, 1 for a draw) are equal after the home and away tests. Since Chelsea lost at home 2-1 they needed to win (odviously) and they need to get ahead of Barca's GF4 GA1 tally. With Chelsea at GF1 GA4 they need to score at least a 2 goal lead. UNLESS Chelsea could win the match by scoring 3 or more goals in which case a 3-2, 4-3 or whatever victory would be enough. Why? Because Chelsea would get 2 GF points for every away goal and at 3 away goals scored (GF6) added to their 1 home goal (GF1) they'd be at GF7. Since Barca would only get 1 point for their home goals scored they couldn't catch Chelsea in the GF category. If Barca lost 3-2 they'd get GF2 for their 2 home goals add it to GF4 for their 2 away goals and end up GF6. Easy formula that mostly works but not all the time? If level on points whoever scored the most away goals goes through. If that is also level whoever scored the most home goals goes through. If that's equal you get to play just a little bit more. Easy as that. Not sure if I like the rule or not. Sort of 50/50 on it as it's got it's good points and it's drawbacks as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJT Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Cheeta, I've always found the explanation based on "away goals count as two each" to be overly complicated. Throw in points for wins and losses and it gets even worse. I prefer: most total goals wins, if tied then most away goals wins, if tied then play extra time and reapply the first two rules within extra time. I think that's much simpler, especially when you're in the middle of a match and trying to figure it out on the fly. Juventus vs. Werder Bremen was quite extraordinary. Bremen, already leading 3-2 after the first leg at home, scored within 15 minutes and began bunkering to protect their two-goal lead. Juve had many chances, but poor finishing and excellent goalkeeping by Bremen's Tim Wiese (not to mention a whopping 16 offsides, for a total of 27 over the two legs) made it seem that Juve would have one of those days where a team gets all the chances but will never score even if they played all day. However, they finally did break through for a deserved goal in the 65th by Trezeguet, but they needed one more. After sustaining pressure for a while longer, in the last 15 minutes the chances dried up and it looked as though Juve had nothing left. But, this is Juve, and anyone who watches Serie A will tell you that Juve will always be a threat in the final minutes and almost always have luck on their side... So I've set the stage for the 88th minute, now watch this... 4-4 on aggregate, 2-1 Juventus on away goals. It's incredible that Wiese was the star of the match and would have been the primary reason for Bremen's victory, but that happened. I was cheering for Juve, but I was shaking my head after the match. I was relieved, but I felt badly for Wiese and Bremen (oh, I've been on the receiving end many times as I usually cheer against Juve (except in Europe) and they always seem to get one break or another). First the thrashing at Lyon last year, now this - Bremen sure don't go out quietly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Barça played very seriously last night, and showed the team has matured tactically and as a block. We have flash, and Ronaldinho's goal was brilliant, but the key was how hard we worked and how mediocre so many of Chelsea's players looked against us. Their penalty was a very dubious call, I'd say that simply Terry came in late and likely fouled Gio, who was way ahead of him touching the ball out. But since it was the last seconds it served as a little gift for Mourinho, so his bragging rights remain intact. That would never have been called if Barça had not already assured themselves of going through, it was pure politics. Compare his press comments to those of Rijkaard, who is so extremely polite and measured that at times we wish we had someone to be a bit more gutteral, not even the players are overly exagerrated in their comments. I sort of miss the days when we participated in heated fashion in the polemics of the day vs. rivals, now we are so tempered it is ridiculous. But fair enough, it was just a round of 16, nothing to get too excited about. Some very interesting match-ups in a game that was played a bit like a final. Chelsea does not have a lot of football, their passing is only average, and certain players like Carvalho, Duff, even Lampard looked weak on the night. Terry showed his class, Gallas too, Cole was strong, Drogba only showed he can jump but did nothing with his feet. I thought Marquéz and Puyol were very good for Barça, with the outside backs Oleguer (who is having a less stellar year) and Gio doing a good job, in general, vs. Robben and Cole. Deco, Larsson especially helping out defensively, and of course Ronnie were excellent on the night. With Bayern or Milan, Juve, maybe Gunners and Reds still in the mix, even Madrid depending on tonight, this is a strong Champions league and I do not feel Barça is at all a clear favourite, despite the bookie's odds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argh1 Posted March 9, 2006 Author Share Posted March 9, 2006 Can I, can I, please......please get Lyon vs Arsenal in the next draw....pleeeeeeeeeeeease Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 If that penalty was a dubious call, what was that Red Card in the first match? Barcelona is the better technical team, with more class players, but the only reason they won was because Uefa has it in for Mourinho. That had to be one of the worst red cards I've ever seen. And how can you call fans that throw pig heads and cell phones at players, and spit at people tempered? You guys are a bunch of animals, you should be embarrassed. Mourinho is correct when he said that 11 vs 11 Barca hasn't beat Chelsea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Thank God Liverpool is out. Was getting tired listening to their fans on other soccer forums gloat about their glorified 5th place EPL team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Manuel If that penalty was a dubious call, what was that Red Card in the first match? Barcelona is the better technical team, with more class players, but the only reason they won was because Uefa has it in for Mourinho. That had to be one of the worst red cards I've ever seen. And how can you call fans that throw pig heads and cell phones at players, and spit at people tempered? You guys are a bunch of animals, you should be embarrassed. Mourinho is correct when he said that 11 vs 11 Barca hasn't beat Chelsea. You and Jose might also like to know that 11 v 11 Chelsea hasn't beat Barca. In fact they pretty much got owned by Barca. In 180 minutes Chelsea didn't even muster one good scoring chance! Only a handfull of half-chances. The next time you watch a football match, I suggest you open your eyes. [8)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 The second game last year Chelsea won 4-2. That game was played 11 vs 11, and I recall Chelsea owning Barca that game. Now the first game of last year Barca played 35 min of the second half with an extra man, and won 1-0. This year they played about 65 min with the extra man and won 2-1. The facts are over four games, 11 vs 11 Chelsea has not lost, and has outscored Barca 5-3. So I'm afraid amacpher, the next time you watch a football match, I suggest you open your eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River City Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 quote:Originally posted by amacpher The next time you watch a football match, I suggest you open your eyes. [8)] I know you have it in for Chelsea, but you don't need to be rude about it. Manuel beat me to it, but here is the head to head to record last 2 years; 2-1 win for Barcelona in Barcelona with a bs red card to Chelsea 4-2 win for Chelsea in London 2-1 win for Barcelona in London with a bs red card to Chelsea 1-1 draw in Barcelona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canso Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Three Eye-talian teams in the quarters is three too many. I'll be cheering mightily for Ajax to knock out Inter on Tuesday. Is the draw this week or next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 The draw is tomorrow, 6a EST. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Manuel The second game last year Chelsea won 4-2. That game was played 11 vs 11, and I recall Chelsea owning Barca that game. Now the first game of last year Barca played 35 min of the second half with an extra man, and won 1-0. This year they played about 65 min with the extra man and won 2-1. The facts are over four games, 11 vs 11 Chelsea has not lost, and has outscored Barca 5-3. So I'm afraid amacpher, the next time you watch a football match, I suggest you open your eyes. a) What's with the obsession over LAST season? What happened last season play no role in who deserves to go through this season! I mean, if you're gonna talk about last season, why stop there? Lets also talk about when Barca beat Chelsea 5-1 five years ago. [] The whole "Barca didn't beat Chelsea with 11v11" argument is stupid. As Jeffrey said, Chelsea wouldn't have gotten that penalty if it was gonna have an outcome on the match. And on top of that, it doesn't matter. If Chelsea had won, how would you feel if Rijkaard spent the next two days crying "Chelsea couldn't beat us when Messi was on the pitch". Of course, Rijkaard has too much class to say something like that... c) Open your eyes and watch this: http://home20.inet.tele.dk/arsenalclips6/DHorno.gif [:0] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 My gimpy left peg aches just watching that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 quote:Originally posted by River City I know you have it in for Chelsea, but you don't need to be rude about it. Manuel beat me to it, but here is the head to head to record last 2 years; 2-1 win for Barcelona in Barcelona 4-2 win for Chelsea in London with a BS goal for Chelsea 2-1 win for Barcelona in London 1-1 draw in Barcelona with a BS penalty for Chelsea FYP. Funny, how you don't mention that Barca should have gotten two penalties in the first leg. Neither was called, and instead Chelsea gets a BS penalty in the second-leg. Plus Barca were w/o Messi for 65 minutes. You have to look at it objectively. Breaks went both ways. (Of course, Del Horno's red card was not even a break for Barca). http://home20.inet.tele.dk/arsenalclips6/DHorno.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Del Horno deserved a card for the first challenge, I'll admit that. The reason why the obsession with last season, is that Uefa were still pissed that Morihno & Chelsea beat Barca. And the argument that Barca were without Messi for 65 min is stupid. Messi was replace by another player. Your argument would hold if he wasn't replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River City Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Look buddy, 1) you took exception (God knows why) to Manuel's observation that Barcelona hasn't beaten Chelsea 11 v 11 2)then you said that Chelsea didn't beat Barca 11 v 11. Well, in regards to #1 Manuel stands corrected because in two years, Barcelona has only beaten Chelsea when Chelsea has played a man down. As for #2, Chelsea beat Barcelona 11 v 11 last year. The obsession with last year is because we are talking about the same teams. We could bring up 5 years ago, but that would be irrelevant as the two teams have changed drastically. 3) You do bring up the questionable goals for Chelsea, but what's worst, a questionable call by the ref or a questionable red card? 4) How can you say the red card to Del Horno wasn't a break for Barça? 5) Can you lay off on the 'open your eyes' sh*t? Are you an optomologist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Manuel Del Horno deserved a card for the first challenge, I'll admit that. The reason why the obsession with last season, is that Uefa were still pissed that Morihno & Chelsea beat Barca. And the argument that Barca were without Messi for 65 min is stupid. Messi was replace by another player. Your argument would hold if he wasn't replaced. I know its stupid. That's why I'm saying Jose's argument is AS STUPID AS if</u>, say, Barca lost and Rijkaard said "they couldn't beat us with Messi." My point is, the losing manager can always point to one or two (or more) things that may have made a difference. That doesn't mean the better team lost. [8)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 quote:Originally posted by River City Look buddy, 1) you took exception (God knows why) to Manuel's observation that Barcelona hasn't beaten Chelsea 11 v 11 2)then you said that Chelsea didn't beat Barca 11 v 11. Well, in regards to #1 Manuel stands corrected because in two years, Barcelona has only beaten Chelsea when Chelsea has played a man down. But so what? That's the rule. Even your cohort admits Del Horno deserved to get sent off. quote: As for #2, Chelsea beat Barcelona 11 v 11 last year. The obsession with last year is because we are talking about the same teams. We could bring up 5 years ago, but that would be irrelevant as the two teams have changed drastically. Last year has nothing to do with it. The teams might be similar (similar, not the same) but Barca played better overall in the two matches this year compared to how they played last year against Chelsea. Whether they scored more goals 11 v 11 is not the point. Barca got *exactly* what they wanted in the Nou Camp (ie. a game with very few scoring chances) quote: 3) You do bring up the questionable goals for Chelsea, but what's worst, a questionable call by the ref or a questionable red card? Definitely getting two penalties not called in your favour PLUS one non-penalty to be called a penalty against you is worse than getting a questionable red card. Because we don't even know if the red card had any effect on the result in the first-leg. Early indications were that Barca were gonna score and win that match anyway as they had two good chances when it was 11 v 11... Whereas 3 penalty calls going against you DEFINITELY has an effect on the final score. quote: 4) How can you say the red card to Del Horno wasn't a break for Barça? Because Del Horno deserved to get sent-off. So that's not how you define a break. A break is, for example, playing Chelsea and not having to face Essien. Or having Motta kick the ball into his own net accidentally. quote: 5) Can you lay off on the 'open your eyes' sh*t? Are you an optomologist? http://home20.inet.tele.dk/arsenalclips6/DHorno.gif [8)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I said he "deserved a card" not he deserved to be sent off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I for the life of me don't understand how just because Mourinho is Portuguese those of that background have to defend him. He is a fine coach, but not that great, he made serious errors in both legs and is lucky his rivals in England are struggling. That said, we had an experience here in Barcelona with Louis Van Gaal who won two straight leagues for us and always was a total asshole, an ugly human being with a terrible personality, a lack of class, rude and arrogant. And those were the least two pleasant titles for us Barça fans. So those of Portuguese blood take notice: you can be partisan to a point, but not the point of being whiners, complainers and poor loosers. Especially in sympathy to someone like that, he does not make Portugal proud, your national team did that last Eurocup without him, in a fine tournament. Without Mourinho. Benfica just did so with a classy gentleman like Koeman on the bench. Last year Barça had a few bad moments in Barcelona and ten terrible minutes in London and even then we were only eliminated because Collina did not call a blatant foul on the keeper in the final minutes leading to Chelsea's fourth. The linesman had the flag up. Collina was afraid to call it, perhaps because Chelsea supporters were sending death threats to UEFA refs, maybe because it was his last game and he did not want to feel the wrath of the tabloids. In any case, instead of whining about that for more than a few minutes, we came into this tie thinking about how to improve on those errors, how to cut off the Chelsea counter, how not to get caught out in the midfield, how to hold the fast, dangerous wingers. Rijkaard did his job, corrected the errors, and Barça deserved to win. The Times and the Guardian and most wire services, even English ones, agreed. Only the London tabloids stood by Mou's side. As for the stupid argument about playing with 10. Del Horno committed a foul that was deserving of a red, he ignored the ball and went straight for the man. That is pure cowardice, and I am sure it was incited by his coach, as Asier has never played like that. You are supposed to play by the rules, not argue that if the rules send you off for deliberately trying to injure an opponent, that invalidates the game. There is nowhere in FIFA rules that says that a player has to be subtstantially injured for the blatant foul for ignoring the ball with intent to hurt the opposing player to become a red card. Red card's are shown week after week for dangerous play, and there is nothing that says that a player has to be injured for one to be deserved. Indeed if a player leaps over a studded boot to avoid being whacked, and that boot has not met the ball, that could be a yellow or red even in the boot does not hit the player either. So all this bull about Messi is pathetic, since he totally outclassed Del Horno and Robben at age 18. Finally, I have seen more ambition from a few other teams in Spain this year, like Atletico de Madrid and Zaragoza, than from Chelsea. They play a bit fearfully, I think fearful of their coach. That is not the stuff European champions are made of, you have to give a little bit more football to the world to rightfully expect that football will give you some great results back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Manuel I said he "deserved a card" not he deserved to be sent off. Two yellows = one red. Either way, he's sent off by the time he made that second reckless challenge on Messi. I was watching that first game with some absolute die-hard Chelsea supporters and even they agreed that the second challenge was worthy of a straight red. You just can't allow goons to take runs every 5 minutes at world-class players 3 months before a World Cup and not punish them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Another question, a matter of principle: how can Drogba be worth more than Ronaldinho? How can Barcelona, with a much more stellar past and reputation than Chelsea, play 5 players brought up through the youth ranks to match that financial clout? Another reason we were not proud of Van Gaal: he would play up to 7 Dutchmen at a time, ignoring Spaniards, ignoring the kids coming up through the ranks. Embarrassing for us, and no fun either: it is not a question of just winning, it is a question of doing so in a way coherent with your way of being as a club. Since Chelsea does not really have a "way" of being, a clear tradition to rely on, there is nothing to cite as a reference. While five academy players vs. Chelsea in such a crucial match is in consonnance with what Barça is about. From the Daily Mail: "Chelsea lost to Barcelona on aggregate in the Champions League last 16 despite possessing a squad which cost more than twice as much to assemble as that of the Catalan giants in terms of transfer fees. Here we tot up the reported figures based on the squads on duty on Tuesday night. CHELSEA Petr Cech: £7million Paulo Ferreira: £13.2m Ricardo Carvalho: £19.85m John Terry: Academy William Gallas: £6.2m Joe Cole: £6.6m Claude Makelele: £16.6m Frank Lampard: £11m Damien Duff: £17m Arjen Robben: £12m Didier Drogba: £24m Substitutes Hernan Crespo: £16.8m Carlo Cudicini: Nominal fee Maniche: Loan Eidur Gudjohnsen: £5m Geremi: £7m Shaun Wright-Phillips: £21m Robert Huth: Academy TOTAL: £183.25m BARCELONA Victor Valdes: Academy Oleguer: Academy Carles Puyol: Academy Rafael Marquez: £4.8m Giovanni van Bronckhorst: Nominal fee Deco: £10.3m Edmilson: £6m Thiago Motta: Academy Lionel Messi: Academy Ronaldinho: £21m Samuel Eto'o: £16.45m Substitutes Henrik Larsson: Free Jorquera: Academy Belletti: £2.74m Ludovic Giuly: £4.59m Silvinho: £1.37m Mark van Bommel: Free Andres Iniesta: Academy TOTAL: £67.25m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. Another question, a matter of principle: how can Drogba be worth more than Ronaldinho? How can Barcelona, with a much more stellar past and reputation than Chelsea, play 5 players brought up through the youth ranks to match that financial clout? From the Daily Mail: "Chelsea lost to Barcelona on aggregate in the Champions League last 16 despite possessing a squad which cost more than twice as much to assemble as that of the Catalan giants in terms of transfer fees. Here we tot up the reported figures based on the squads on duty on Tuesday night. CHELSEA TOTAL: £183.25m BARCELONA TOTAL: £67.25m And the difference would have been more if both teams fielded their first choice XI (ie. with Essien and Xavi playing) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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