Players Diving and Stretchers [Man U & Benefica R]

[Timotas]

After watching the Man U and Benefica, it has come to my awareness AGAIN of the diving/time wasting issue in soccer.

Basically the Portuguese make me sick. And hey, I'm not being biased, because my mother is Portuguese and my father is English.

All this diving and staying down for 4 minutes because you got a little knock in the face because of a 50/50 challenge is utter sh*t. It is so irritating as a fan watching this in a excellent flowing game. I'm not even a ManUtd fan... I just like watching great soccer and when Quim, the Keeper of Benefica, hits the ground after going up for a challenge or getting knocked down and lying there... basically like a little b*tch... it makes me so annoyed.

Does this bother anyone else? What about the Benefica player who gets a slight knock in the face and gets taken off in a stretcher and as the stretcher gets passed the touchline, he jumps off and commands to get back onto the field.

FIFA should be making a rule. If a player goes off on a stretcher, he is automatically substituted and not allowed to come back onto the pitch. Soccer is the only sport where this happens. It is obviously used for tactical reasons, such as time wasting. It takes the flow out of the game and takes the tempo away from the opposing team.

Obviously in some cases stretchers are needed for a player. But stretchers are pretty serious... normally used for people who cannot walk, let alone run a couple seconds later.

The Portuguese are famous for diving and lying down on the floor like morons. It just bothers me.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Timotas

After watching the Man U and Benefica, it has come to my awareness AGAIN of the diving/time wasting issue in soccer.

Basically the Portuguese make me sick. And hey, I'm not being biased, because my mother is Portuguese and my father is English.

All this diving and staying down for 4 minutes because you got a little knock in the face because of a 50/50 challenge is utter sh*t. It is so irritating as a fan watching this in a excellent flowing game. I'm not even a ManUtd fan... I just like watching great soccer and when Quim, the Keeper of Benefica, hits the ground after going up for a challenge or getting knocked down and lying there... basically like a little b*tch... it makes me so annoyed.

Does this bother anyone else? What about the Benefica player who gets a slight knock in the face and gets taken off in a stretcher and as the stretcher gets passed the touchline, he jumps off and commands to get back onto the field.

FIFA should be making a rule. If a player goes off on a stretcher, he is automatically substituted and not allowed to come back onto the pitch. Soccer is the only sport where this happens. It is obviously used for tactical reasons, such as time wasting. It takes the flow out of the game and takes the tempo away from the opposing team.

Obviously in some cases stretchers are needed for a player. But stretchers are pretty serious... normally used for people who cannot walk, let alone run a couple seconds later.

The Portuguese are famous for diving and lying down on the floor like morons. It just bothers me.

*eyeroll* Ooo... a sawker fan in Canada who supports Man United and cries when their little rich team loses. How unique.

Yup, lets ignore the fact that that was one of the best played footy matches you'll see all year...

Anyway, forgetting for a moment that more Brasilians started for Benfica than Portuguese, the stretcher idea was introduced so that players had no excuse to lie around on the ground for several minutes. Now they would be carried off right-away with a stretcher with minimum time being wasted. IT's a good rule, but it obviously just doesn't work for goal-keepers...

[Guest Jeffery S.]

Usually the people who whine about time-wasting and diving don't say a word or get at all upset when a player aims at a fellow pros knee and destroys a cruciate ligament. Because that is the manly way to play, and you can't prove he really wanted to hurt the guy, and it is not a game for the weak.

If Canada did half the time wasting vs. Honduras in Edmonton we could be talking about going to the World Cup. We were a disaster controlling leads, and holding composure in late minutes, both halves. I say, pick up a good video of a club wasting time to hold onto a lead and force national team players to watch it a few times. And to hell with all that hockey-headed pseudo toughness that we take into soccer, as it is totally against the nature of the sport.

[Timotas]

quote:Originally posted by amacpher

*eyeroll* Ooo... a sawker fan in Canada who supports Man United and cries when their little rich team loses. How unique.

Yup, lets ignore the fact that that was one of the best played footy matches you'll see all year...

Anyway, forgetting for a moment that more Brasilians started for Benfica than Portuguese, the stretcher idea was introduced so that players had no excuse to lie around on the ground for several minutes. Now they would be carried off right-away with a stretcher with minimum time being wasted. IT's a good rule, but it obviously just doesn't work for goal-keepers...

If you actually took the time to read my post, you would have been smart enough to recognize that... I am not a Man Utd fan. I was watching the game as a neutral soccer fan.

Dummy.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Timotas

If you actually took the time to read my post, you would have been smart enough to recognize that... I am not a Man Utd fan. I was watching the game as a neutral soccer fan.

Dummy.

I read your post, but don't believe for a second that you weren't cheering for Man United. IT was a judgement call on my part, but a seven paragraph rant about how Benfica makes you sick gave me a hunch. [^]

[Cheeta]

Didn't see the match, but this time wasting problem has come up too many times to even remember.

And the stretcher nonscense HAS played a part in cutting it down. But come on, it's the most ridiculous sight in professional sport. Just try and argue that it isn't. Go on. Try. (Okay. Maybe the ritualistic fist fights of hockey is 1st, but not by a Hell of a lot.)

I've got a grand plan. Make it so the injured player can only rejoin the field of play at the half way line, right in front of the 4th official as though they were a sub. And only after they've spent as much time off the pitch as they've spent on it delaying the match. You know, so they have enough time to properly recover and not injury themselves further.

Think you'd find a lot of these players are a lot tougher all of a sudden.

[Timotas]

I like your thinking Cheeta. Cheeta for FIFA President.

[Markus]

I have to agree that these fake injuries are the worst part about watching soccer. There's nothing worse than watching some guy barely get clipped, roll around like he's been shot for five minutes, and then return to the pitch in perfect condition minutes later. I like the idea that if a stretcher is needed, the player should not be allowed to return to the field of play. It's frustrating to watch, regardless of if your team is in the lead or trailing.

[Manuel]

It's part of the game. Stop all the complaining and get used to it. If you can use it to your advantage, you're smart for doing it. Like Jeffry said, maybe the tough, hard nosed, Canadain players should learn a thing or to about time wasting. Looks like they are the only ones in the regions that don't do it, but where has it got them. Every sport has things happen to slow it down. Basketball has 30 minutes of timeouts in the last minute. Baseball watses so much time with pitcher changes. The pitcher warms up for 15 minutes in the bull pen and still has to warm up for another 5 on the mound. Football is all about running the time off the clock, and Hockey has TV timeouts every few minutes. It's part of sport. The smart teams use it to their advantage.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Manuel

It's part of the game. Stop all the complaining and get used to it. If you can use it to your advantage, you're smart for doing it. Like Jeffry said, maybe the tough, hard nosed, Canadain players should learn a thing or to about time wasting. Looks like they are the only ones in the regions that don't do it, but where has it got them. Every sport has things happen to slow it down. Basketball has 30 minutes of timeouts in the last minute. Baseball watses so much time with pitcher changes. The pitcher warms up for 15 minutes in the bull pen and still has to warm up for another 5 on the mound. Football is all about running the time off the clock, and Hockey has TV timeouts every few minutes. It's part of sport. The smart teams use it to their advantage.

Excellent post. None of the suggestions made in this thread solves time-wasting anyway. The "injured" player would just stay down until the stretcher is carried to him, and then he'd get up and walk-off SLOWLY at the last second, rather than jumping on the stretcher and being carried off QUICKLY.

The only thing they should do is have the referree add-on stoppage time after the regular 90 minutes are up. AT the moment they don't really do this. They just pretend to do it by putting up 3 or 4 minutes no matter if there were zero stoppages or a hundred. [:I]

[Timotas]

quote:Originally posted by Manuel

It's part of the game. Stop all the complaining and get used to it. If you can use it to your advantage, you're smart for doing it. Like Jeffry said, maybe the tough, hard nosed, Canadain players should learn a thing or to about time wasting. Looks like they are the only ones in the regions that don't do it, but where has it got them. Every sport has things happen to slow it down. Basketball has 30 minutes of timeouts in the last minute. Baseball watses so much time with pitcher changes. The pitcher warms up for 15 minutes in the bull pen and still has to warm up for another 5 on the mound. Football is all about running the time off the clock, and Hockey has TV timeouts every few minutes. It's part of sport. The smart teams use it to their advantage.

I know it's a part of the game. That's what I am stating... that it should be changed.

[Loud Mouth Soup]

quote:Originally posted by Manuel

It's part of the game. Stop all the complaining and get used to it. If you can use it to your advantage, you're smart for doing it.

You pull that crap against me in a match, I'll make sure you're hurt when you go down.

Part of the game my ass. For cheating little twits, maybe.

[Manuel]

"You'll make sure I'm hurt when I go down" Give me a break. Chances are you will be cautioned or ejected, therefore putting your team at a disadvantage. By doing that, who is the smarter player? The play actor, for getting to you, or you for letting him get to you? Like I said its part of the game. If you can throw your opponents off by a bit of play acting, why not do it.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

Anyone saying that a player going down injured should be forced to stay off the pitch for extra minutes is essentially saying this: it is okay to injure an opposing team player, since not only will he be hurt, but you get to play with an extra man for a few extra minutes as a reward.

This is what I mean by hockey-headed, it is jock-talk, but it proves what I said at first. The complainers don't think it is ridiculous for an inferior player to come in late for the tackle and take out a leg, put his fellow pro out for a few minutes or a few games or months, because they have been infected by the idea that inferiority has a legitimate recourse based on forgetting about the ball. And what those who defend this are effectively defending is anti-football, the idea that if you cannot do it legally with the ball (as Manchester United could not do over six games, not even against a team like Lille) you should do it illegally, by tackling hard and expecting the rival to jump up immediately and give you another chance to do it again. If Manchester had been more effective with the ball they would not have seen Benfica time wasting. And if they had had any brains, instead of fretting nervously like the backers of this thread when a guy goes down and stays there, they should have been considering ways of breaking down the Benfica defense and getting their goal. It is a gift if taken rightly, in almost all sports the time outs are taken by teams trying to organize an attack, pulling out the drawing board and taking time to think. Hey, let's send two down the left side, double over, look for the corner, and if we can get it let's send all the backs forwards, that short mid can stay back to cover the counter. But teams never do this, they sit and fret and whine to the ref, and then usually, after the guy is off, and they have that man advantage for a minute or so, they go back to doing the same old useless things that prove they don't deserve to win anyways.

In any case, time wasting in soccer takes place in a lot of ways. Good teams also hold the ball and pass it around and make the opposing side run after them. Others close down and make tactical fouls to cut off the team trying to get back. But if you need a breather, don't mind if that means extra time added on, stay down, give your teammates a break, and get back on quickly if the ref lets you to keep the result on your side.

[Loud Mouth Soup]

quote:Originally posted by Manuel

"You'll make sure I'm hurt when I go down" Give me a break. Chances are you will be cautioned or ejected, therefore putting your team at a disadvantage. By doing that, who is the smarter player? The play actor, for getting to you, or you for letting him get to you? Like I said its part of the game. If you can throw your opponents off by a bit of play acting, why not do it.

I'd take the card, no question. Diving and play-acting is for babies and the true jerks playing what should be 'the beautiful game'.

Seems like you'd rather play the jerk.

[matthew]

I'll cheer against Man U against anybody, but I agree with Timotas, that it wasn't really easy to cheer for Benfica yesterday. I'm not naive, I understand it's a part of the game and there is a certain level of professional savvy that goes into it. That said I lose respect for teams that do it.

Quim going down under the Van Nistlerooy challenge was a little ridiculous, but at the same time if you're going to shove the keeper out of bounds you should have no complaints about how long he stays down. It's just stupidity on the part of the ManU player. As for the guy that got stretchered off, it looked like he got a stray boot to the boys, but he kept holding his face (and it was nowhere near his face) which was a bit of a disgrace.

I'm sure Benfica would rather have three points than my respect, but the lack of self-belief that they could do the job in the final 20 the same way they had earned the result in the first 70 is disappointing.

If time wasting and feigning injuries is what it takes to be successful, if that's why Canada doesn't get to go to the World Cup then I don't want to go. Seriously. There's a fine line between being smart and crafty and being devious, but if we had to roll around and play act to get the result because we weren't good enough to do it ethically then I don't want the result.

cheers,

matthew

[River City]

quote:Originally posted by Loud Mouth Soup

I'd take the card, no question. Diving and play-acting is for babies and the true jerks playing what should be 'the beautiful game'.

Seems like you'd rather play the jerk.

I wish more guys like you played in my league. Nothing I like more than someone who HAS to resort to try to hurt other players. Causing you guys to draw a card is like taking candy from a baby...and no I don't dive and roll around (that indoor carpet scrapes your skin pretty bad).

What I do in Indoor since I'm a fairly big guy compared to other keepers (and it's legal) is stand in front of them and screen their view, while one of their defenders (sometimes two) hang back to cover me. This creates more room in the rest of the field for my midfielders and usually results in a defender or the keeper trying to forcibly remove me from the crease. Is this part of the Beautiful game? No. Is it effective? Yes. Is Italy's 10 man defense part of the beatiful game? No. Is it effective? Yup.

The whole point of playing at the professional level is to win - pure and simple. Especially for smaller teams going up against traditional giants with unlimited $$$$. If your livelihood depended on you having to timewaste, my money is on you timewasting.

BTW, sometimes, when a player rolls around is because they actually got hurt momentarily. Nothing like sprinting full speed and having to avoid a bad tackle only to lose your balance and fall akwardly and unexpectedly.

[Loud Mouth Soup]

I don't go out of my way, River. I don't HAVE to hurt anyone. I actually play quite fairly and hard without anything of the sort. I just hate cheaters and pansies who can't use skill to win.

[Cheeta]

The argument that it's part of the game and we should get used to it is rubbish. Two of the most important rule changes in football in the last, what? 50 years? involved eliminating time wasting.

Intentional back passes and having multiple game balls.

Find a tape and just watch a match from 15-20 years ago. Tell me the game isn't 100X better now that the 'keeper can't handle an intentional back pass or we don't have to wait 40 times a match while the ball in retrieved from row Z.

You want to play keep-away? Fair enough. Go ahead. Let's see if you can.

And I'm not saying everybody who takes a knock after running for 80 minutes doesn't sincerly need a minute or two to get their breath back or the pain down in the old pegs. The ref. usualy gives them that opportunity. But if you need more than that minute, here it is.

And I'm not advocating violent play. Football is a contact sport and it would be crap if it wasn't. But I dought that there is a federation in Europe that doesn't retroactively apply punishments for violent conduct which has or hasn't been already addressed on the day by the ref.

If these same federations would also retroactively punish these bitch actors for bringing the game into disrepute then maybe we'd be onto something.

[Gordon]

Simulation - straight red card. Easy as that. Reasonable doubt, the ref deals with it as he does now. Pretty simple. The guys who writhe around in pain to waste time are the same guys who simulate injury trying to get their opponents carded or win undeserved penalties. Punish them. Horror "challenges" are easily dealt with, subject to post game sanction in the event that the offical misses it. Simulation should be treated the same. Cheating is cheating. If a player wants to pretend injury then he risks the red. If he is good at it, if there was in fact contact, it will be no risk, but it will reduce the blatant ****.

It would be interestng though, to do a study of how acceptable open corruption is in the social culture of a nation versus the willingness to accept simulation. My experience is that they are directly proportional. For example, most Central and South American Countries I've been to (well over a dozen) are openly (note the absense of the word more in that statement, it is intentionally ommitted as of course, dishonesty is equally rampant in North American culture as well, we just hide it) corrupt and of course, simulation is also much more accepted.

[juaninho]

Nothing to do with the match, but I've discovered who ManU's new sponsor will be:

[Manuel]

Ok, lets say Canada was playing Bahrain instead of T&T. Second game, score tied 1-1. Canada needs to score. Radzinski falls in the box, wasn't tripped, but he made it look like he was. He takes the penalty, scores and Canada fake a few injuries in the dying minutes to waste some time. Canada makes it to the World Cup. Soccer in Canada would finally get some national media coverage, and the start of a new era in Canadian soccer begins. Don't tell me you wouldn't celebrate Canada’s victory because they "cheated". Everyone on here would be going nuts. You would be glad that they did it rather than having it done against them. So don't give me this whole story about cheaters and ruining the beautiful game. If you can do it and win, it may piss off some people, but it is part of the game.

And Loud Mouth Soup, no need to call me a jerk. I've played soccer for over 20 years, and I don't think I have ever once faked an injury, but I can understand why it's done.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Manuel

Ok, lets say Canada was playing Bahrain instead of T&T. Second game, score tied 1-1. Canada needs to score. Radzinski falls in the box, wasn't tripped, but he made it look like he was. He takes the penalty, scores and Canada fake a few injuries in the dying minutes to waste some time. Canada makes it to the World Cup. Soccer in Canada would finally get some national media coverage, and the start of a new era in Canadian soccer begins. Don't tell me you wouldn't celebrate Canada’s victory because they "cheated". Everyone on here would be going nuts. You would be glad that they did it rather than having it done against them. So don't give me this whole story about cheaters and ruining the beautiful game. If you can do it and win, it may piss off some people, but it is part of the game.

And Loud Mouth Soup, no need to call me a jerk. I've played soccer for over 20 years, and I don't think I have ever once faked an injury, but I can understand why it's done.

So then you would condone the the hatchet man who goes out to intentionally injure a player then? You know, Canada is 5 points ahead of Guatemala, trailing by one in Guatemala with 5 minutes left. Knowing the game lost, and equally knowing that Guatemala would have to win in Costra Rica to go ahead, Mark Watson attacks the knee of Carlos Ruiz with a goal to putting him out for the rest of qualifying. Sure enough, without firepower, Guatemala can only draw Costa Rica, and Canada goes through to the world cup. Soccer in Canada finally gets some national media coverage, and the start of a new era in Canadian soccer begins. Cheating is cheating. It is that simple. I can certainly "understand" why a player would want to possibly end the career of an opponent but that does not mean that I condone it. Its an easy answer for me Manuel. In both your scenario and mine I would be upset at the antics of our team - the fake penalty at least on yours. Lying on the ground for a minute or two after a tackle that the official chooses to penalize, even if only with a free kick, is something I can accept as a part of the time wasting scenario. It can not be clear that simulation is occuring. But taking an opponent out of the game, whether through simulation or physical foul is not acceptable - even if the former comes without possible career ending implications.

So my view is that Radz, if determined to have dived, should be given a red card, and Canada ends its WC run the same way it has ended almost every other run - eliminated - and the entire world gets a lessen that simulation is not acceptable. Further, I would suggest that in the case where Radzinski gets away with it, and the damage is done, and television replays show incontrevertably that it was simulatation that he be sanctioned (the same way that Micheal Essien is currently facing the possibility). While that does not change the outcome of the game - just as the possible sanction of Essien will not change the result of that game - it does punish both the player and the club/country adn discourage the behaviour.

I "understand" why people lie, steal, commit violence. That does not make it OK. And the simple fact, Manuel, that in 20 years of soccer you have never chosen to fake injury very strongly suggests that you know it is wrong and choose to govern yourself accordingly.

[Manuel]

Gordon, I would not condone the hatchet man that goes out to intentionally injure a player. You are comparing apple to oranges. Your scenario and mine are completely different. I understand they are both cheating, however your scenario is malicious, where as faking a foul or taking a dive will not end a career of a player.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Simulation - straight red card. Easy as that. Reasonable doubt, the ref deals with it as he does now. Pretty simple. The guys who writhe around in pain to waste time are the same guys who simulate injury trying to get their opponents carded or win undeserved penalties. Punish them. Horror "challenges" are easily dealt with, subject to post game sanction in the event that the offical misses it. Simulation should be treated the same. Cheating is cheating. If a player wants to pretend injury then he risks the red. If he is good at it, if there was in fact contact, it will be no risk, but it will reduce the blatant ****.

Just the other day a player got a yellow card for diving when replays clearly showed that he was tripped and it should have been a penalty.

Changing rules isn't that simple.