Players Diving and Stretchers [Man U & Benefica R]

[BrennanFan]

Its not cheating if u dont get caught. Diving and time wasting are legitimate techniques taught around the world, its a part of knowing how to win. Thats something Canada does not know how to do right now. That Radzinski scenario was an excellent illustration. The decision to fake a penalty in a situation like that would be a no-brainer everywhere else in the world, the fact that its even a debate in Canada shows how far behind Canada is in soccer maturity.

"Cheat to Win" - Eddie Guerrero (RIP)

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by amacpher

I didn't mean it as a simple answer. The penalty is simple not the problem. Every rule is subject to the view of the officials and calls are blown all the time, including cases where a card for diving is given. Nevertheless, there is no deterrent right now. In the example given by Mauel, the worst Radzinski risks is a yellow card. Certainly a penalty worth risking for the result. But a Red Card? Under his scenario, Radzinski would basically be rolling the dice, and a red for that action would have dire consequences for both the comeback and possibly for Radzinski himself. For crying out loud, toss a water bottle onto the field and you get 3 games but simulate a dive in the box for a game altering penalty and there are no consequences?

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by Manuel

It's part of the game. Stop all the complaining and get used to it. If you can use it to your advantage, you're smart for doing it. Like Jeffry said, maybe the tough, hard nosed, Canadain players should learn a thing or to about time wasting. Looks like they are the only ones in the regions that don't do it, but where has it got them. Every sport has things happen to slow it down. Basketball has 30 minutes of timeouts in the last minute. Baseball watses so much time with pitcher changes. The pitcher warms up for 15 minutes in the bull pen and still has to warm up for another 5 on the mound. Football is all about running the time off the clock, and Hockey has TV timeouts every few minutes. It's part of sport. The smart teams use it to their advantage.

Your argument is fundamentally flawed, in that in every one of those sports that you mentioned (other than football) the 'time-wasting' techniques that you've highlighted do not actually waste any time, as the clock is stopped for a basketball timeout, baseball doesn't use a clock, and the hockey TV timeouts do not affect the time remaining either.

Even in football, the time-wasting (in a 'running out the clock' sense) is generally reserved for the last minute of the game, and only if the winning team has possession of the ball.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by amacpher

Just the other day a player got a yellow card for diving when replays clearly showed that he was tripped and it should have been a penalty.

Changing rules isn't that simple.

This happens a lot lately. If I recall correctly Barça forward Messi was taken out clearly in the box, the defender stepping on his support foot as he shot past, he fell and was carded. Meaning it is hard for a ref to see the foul, and can card for the wrong reasons, for a person fouling when no foul was made, for a dive when in fact the player was taken out. The ref has to be quite sure, and would be amiss to card a fall either way without seeing it clearly.

But we are talking about staying down in case of a real foul, a soft foul, or even a non-foul. The ref has a recourse, which is to add time on to the game. It is done quite frequently, and the ref is mandated to do it, and that way he does not have to decide whether an injury is real or not, he is not a doctor after all, he let's in the physios, they do their stuff, he adds the extra time and that is that. So complicated?

By the way, I don't believe anyone who claims that they would not want to see Canada go to the World Cup on a bogus play. First, because in any qualifying round other teams will take points from us on bogus plays, so this all evens out. Second, because to get close enough to going to a WCup tournament for a single play to matter means that likely you deserve fully to be there. It is not like you are getting knocked out in semis like us, you made it to the Hex, you got the points, you just need one or three more, you are almost there. You are deserving, and the bogus play or dive or time-wasting is just the final little drop putting you over the edge into glory. It is not definitive in any way.

[piltdownman]

Let me start by saying that I am a united fan so take everything I say with a grain of salt. First off United lost becuase they have played like garbage. But as my friend and I commented after the loss the other day at least the last of the bandwagon fans must have switched teams now. Anyways back to the topic at hand, the time wasting was terrible in that game. It pissed me off as much as united rubbish play. Not just the players getting a slight knock and lying on grass for ten minutes holding the wrong body part only to jump off the stretcher as soon as they cross the touch line. Where I also noticed alot of time wasting was with the substitutions. There was one Benefica substitution that took a minute and a half (we were timing them) and I'm pretty sure substitutions only add thirty seconds to the stoppage time. So much time wasting, don't get me wrong manchester played themselves out of the challenge league but the time wasting was the as bad as anything I've seen i recent times.

I would like to see uefa start doing something about dives. All too often I see players going down and crying about fouls only to see in the replays that no contact was even made. Its so obvious sometimes that their is no doubt that it is a dive. In these instances I would like to see long suspensions be given out. And as a United fan i'll be the first to admit one of the players most guilty of this is little Ronaldo.

[Free kick]

I am puzzled as to why every time the issue of "theatrics/faking injury to waste" time is raised, there are always the inevitable replies alluding to fact that Canada should engage in this behavior and that our inabilities are related to this. Its as if its being implied that the talented sides engage in this and the fact that we don't engage in this explains why we are somewhat less talented. But I don't see the correllation and It just doesn't make sense to me. Its as if some are saying that we need fake injuries to prove that we are talented. Where is the logic. Our troubles over the past 20 year has been goal scoring. How can you score more goals by rolling on the ground clutching you face.

Similarly I do not see the cause and effect between being critical of this type of behavior and approving of vicious and dangerous tackles. Its as if the person(s) defending theatrics is implying that those who are against it also approve of dangerous and wreckless play. But why can't someone be against both?

I have to agree with the thread starter here even though I didn't see the game. But beneath the surface, I sense that most who defend theatrics to waste time are the ones playing up the stereotypes. Moreso than vice versa. Think about it.

[Soju]

quote:Originally posted by Manuel

Everyone on here would be going nuts. You would be glad that they did it rather than having it done against them.

No I wouldn't be going nuts and neither would any of the CMNT fans I know so count me out. Canada is a group of underdogs who don't cheat, and that's the Canada I choose to support. Imagine we got to the World cup by cheating? No. Imagine we got there by playing clean football, then went on to play clean football in the world cup amidst all the other divers and cheaters and fakers. That would make me proud. The rest of you win at all costs "athletes" can go great yourselves, because what you do in sport reflects what you do in life. Have fun eating grass.

[Manuel]

2002 World Cup, Brazil & Turkey in the semis. Rivaldo gets a ball kicked at his shins, puts his hand to his face and falls to the ground. The Turkish player gets a red card, which I’m sure altered the outcome of the game. Brasil win that game and go on to win the World Cup. I know it didn’t look good, but how many Brazilians are not celebrating, or are pissed that Rivaldo did what he did? How many Argentineans are pissed at Maradona for scoring with his hand against England? So I guess these win at all costs "athletes & teams" in your eyes are losers, but to the millions of fans in these countries and around the world, they are World Cup winners. And there aren’t many athletes who can say that.

[Loud Mouth Soup]

The sad thing is, Manuel, they didn't need to do that to win. Their cheating and pathetic actions overshadow their accomplishments to this day.

Enjoy acting like a whiny bitch when you play, though.

[Manuel]

So when someone mentions Maradona, you think of a cheating, pathetic player who acted like a whiny bitch when he played? I just think of possibly the world’s best soccer player in the last 30 years, which I was fortunate enough to actually see play.

And Loud Mouth Soup, like I said before, I've played soccer for over 20 years, and I don't fake injuries, and I am definitely not a whiny bitch.

You have now called me a jerk and a bitch. I guess that make you a tough hard nosed Canadian.

[Loud Mouth Soup]

quote:Originally posted by Manuel

So when someone mentions Maradona, you think of a cheating, pathetic player who acted like a whiny bitch when he played?

No, not completely. You've mixed two seperate statements in to one, but hey-whatever floats your boat. But I do think of his ridiculous 'hand of God' claim, along with being a fat druggy-overshadowing his own career in much the same way Boozer Bestie did. To me, anyway.

quote:Originally posted by Manuel

You have now called me a jerk and a bitch. I guess that make you a tough hard nosed Canadian.

If you think so, then okay. I mean, if I can be tough in your eyes just by calling others names, then I can live with that.

[Soju]

Well I guess Rivaldo the cheating poof is a hero in Brazil then and Maradona the cheating but undeniably skilled cocaine abuser gets to have his too, in Argentina. Ask soccer fans who are not from those countries what they think and you might get some different answers. Ben Johnson won the gold medal for Canada by cheating, remember him? I remember how ashamed I was when he got caught, but here's the funny thing, I was ashamed because I knew he cheated and not just because he got caught doing it. I don't want to generalize too much here but I'm betting a lot of Canadians agree with me. Does that mean we have a different kind of sporting culture than in countries that applaud diving? I hope so, and I think that's the whole point.

[River City]

You were ashamed over the whole Ben Johnson incident? Maybe I'm too pessimistic, but track and field is one of the dirtiest (as in drug laden) sports around and it's never been a well kept secret. Johnson got caught and they made an example out of him, while Carl Lewis and other 'clean' (marketable) athletes kept doing their thing.

I was ashamed over how the media crucified Ben and how Canadians reacted. He wasn't a villain. He was an athlete competing against dirty athletes. If he hadn't taken steroids, he'd be just another failed Canadian athlete who couldn't cut it at the international level. Don't we complain enough about our medal counts at the Olympics?

[Loud Mouth Soup]

Saw Ben in a bar one night 4 years ago. Felt like slapping him and calling him a dumbass. Then that feeling passed and I kept drinking. Then I watched Ben try to hit on girls and get DENIED.