Kelly Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 If the Boston Bulldogs can play PDL and survive in the same town as the REV, I think the Lynx can survive as a PDL team as well, especially considering if they run the same type of SYL programs the Fury run, with ten teams, each team with 20 players paying 250 a month. (600,000$). This is not including their 6 Academy teams full of 9 year olds with deep pocket moms and dads. They could survive. Considering PDL and W-league players draw no salary. And didn't the Lady Lynx have some 2000 plus crowds last year? And didn't Richmond for a while ran a SYL program, W-league, PDL and USL 1 teams? The money seems to be in running youth programs. Which is an entire other ethical debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted November 18, 2005 Share Posted November 18, 2005 Kelly, is anybody holding a gun to the heads of those parents to force them to pay the money for their youngsters to enjoy what the Fury offers? Those who are unwilling to pay can go play soccer somewhere else. I presume you wear cheap off-the-shelf suits and not $2,500 tailor made ones. Both will cover your nakedness adequately and you have a choice. That's what life is all about - choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franky Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 yah, thats nice. when the youtes are done playing their matches, they can come and watch some real soccer MLS style instead of PDL Lynx.[|)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 Kelly bears a resentment against anybody who makes a living out of coaching children. Seems to think people are duped into paying for it and that all children should only be coached by unpaid volunteers, for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Richard Kelly bears a resentment against anybody who makes a living out of coaching children. Seems to think people are duped into paying for it and that all children should only be coached by unpaid volunteers, for free. e How many soccer coaches in first world soccer countries make money off the backs of parents of 7-8-9 year olds? And when a child does enter a professional club at 13 or 14, the club assumes all expenses including paying coaches. It's one thing to use soccer as summer day care and pay players to coach skills to kids, but another when you have grown men in 40's living off the idea that their coaching skills will somehow lead to a 7 year becoming a star. We're losing a rich tradition of volunteering. Where men and women, coached simply to put back into the game they got so much out it. Even in hockey, coaches at that age may get expenses, but except for camps, I have yet to hear of people making a living off of coaching in a no profit club. Some soccer TD"s in Canada have warped things so much that they make upwards of 80K a year! Sorry Richard, but these people should get real jobs and stop exploiting amateur sports. And if you're a "pro" club, then sell enough tickets or find corporate sponsorship to support your bottom line, don't start running BS u-9 academies and start charging 200 bucks a month just to sign up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HamiltonSteelers Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 How's your coaching gig going G-Man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zacRWE Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 well, I would guess the W-League team would survive? They played well, The Hartrells (bushleage as they are) may see an oportunity with womens soccer... just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 quote:Originally posted by HamiltonSteelers How's your coaching gig going G-Man? Considering I've coached soccer for the last 10 years.. I'm doing good. I also coach a pee-wee minor hockey team as well. How about you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 quote:Originally posted by G-Man e How many soccer coaches in first world soccer countries make money off the backs of parents of 7-8-9 year olds? And when a child does enter a professional club at 13 or 14, the club assumes all expenses including paying coaches. It's one thing to use soccer as summer day care and pay players to coach skills to kids, but another when you have grown men in 40's living off the idea that their coaching skills will somehow lead to a 7 year becoming a star. We're losing a rich tradition of volunteering. Where men and women, coached simply to put back into the game they got so much out it. Even in hockey, coaches at that age may get expenses, but except for camps, I have yet to hear of people making a living off of coaching in a no profit club. Some soccer TD"s in Canada have warped things so much that they make upwards of 80K a year! Sorry Richard, but these people should get real jobs and stop exploiting amateur sports. And if you're a "pro" club, then sell enough tickets or find corporate sponsorship to support your bottom line, don't start running BS u-9 academies and start charging 200 bucks a month just to sign up. Well I say the same to you - is anybody holding a gun to the heads of those clubs who employ professional technical directors? The directors of those clubs employ these professionals of their own free will or at the urging of their customers - the children and parents who are members of the clubs. There are still thousands of willing and capable volunteers out there coaching soccer. The number of paid professionals working in community clubs and associations is minuscule relatively speaking. You may see it as greedy pro coaches bleeding the game with vapid promises of great possibilities. Well I say buyer beware. Everybody has a free choice in that regard. We live in a free enterprise society and if these professionals can sell their services and retain their positions well good luck to them. People have been whining and complaining about poor development of the game at the grassroots level in Canada and that the CSA or somebody really ought to do something about it because without good youth programs we will never make it to the world cup. I say bully for these professional coaches who are willing to work with Canadian youth and address the very problem so many aficionados have been complaining about. I have seen the impact that paid professional coaches running a high intensity academy within my local club have had on the quality of play of the club youth teams. There is unquestionably an increase in the standard of play at all levels. These coaches do not replace the parent volunteers, they supplement them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 I would agree with Richard. There's a demand for good coaching and a high calibre environment and people will pay for it. Families in other sports spend unbelievable amounts of money compared to the fees charged by soccer schools so their child(ren) can reach for the stars. And as to 40 year old men making money off the backs of 7 year olds, Walt Disney didn't do too badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HamiltonSteelers Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 quote:Originally posted by G-Man Considering I've coached soccer for the last 10 years.. I'm doing good. I also coach a pee-wee minor hockey team as well. How about you? I'm good, thanks. I don't have a problem of coaches getting paid, which is why I asked. Teachers get paid under the same principle. Paying a trained professional to foster learning skills. Its no different in any other capacity, so why should soccer be the exception. Sure you can have kids be coached by a volunteer who knows the game, but some parents would pay a premium price for a premium service (whether it's actually premium is subject to debate). Kids who have the talent or parents who have the delusions of grandeur need a system to cater to those needs. In steps business to provide said solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Richard Well I say the same to you - is anybody holding a gun to the heads of those clubs who employ professional technical directors? The directors of those clubs employ these professionals of their own free will or at the urging of their customers - the children and parents who are members of the clubs. There are still thousands of willing and capable volunteers out there coaching soccer. The number of paid professionals working in community clubs and associations is minuscule relatively speaking. You may see it as greedy pro coaches bleeding the game with vapid promises of great possibilities. Well I say buyer beware. Everybody has a free choice in that regard. We live in a free enterprise society and if these professionals can sell their services and retain their positions well good luck to them. People have been whining and complaining about poor development of the game at the grassroots level in Canada and that the CSA or somebody really ought to do something about it because without good youth programs we will never make it to the world cup. I say bully for these professional coaches who are willing to work with Canadian youth and address the very problem so many aficionados have been complaining about. I have seen the impact that paid professional coaches running a high intensity academy within my local club have had on the quality of play of the club youth teams. There is unquestionably an increase in the standard of play at all levels. These coaches do not replace the parent volunteers, they supplement them. yes it is a free country and I agree. buyer beware and I'm not suggesting running these guys out of town. but I do draw the line at club TD making more than a teacher or police officer. I also seen TD's make sure the presidents sons team become a number one priority. I also see clubs that are driven by pro coaches that see players as paid customers as not the answer to our woes. Having a provincial license is simply a piece of paper. (I have one) It means nothing. I been on courses with people who make terrible coaches. I have also coached with people who don't have CSA blessings and are great coaches. Money corrupts. It's a fact. I know a track coach whose produced Olympic athletes, he's never been paid. And with this I agree when he says "by charging athletes I rob them of funds to train and develop" And by allowing people to earn a living off kids (not just recouping expenses), we put coaches ahead of the player and the game. Which is wrong. my two cents, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Richard Well I say the same to you - is anybody holding a gun to the heads of those clubs who employ professional technical directors? The directors of those clubs employ these professionals of their own free will or at the urging of their customers - the children and parents who are members of the clubs. There are still thousands of willing and capable volunteers out there coaching soccer. The number of paid professionals working in community clubs and associations is minuscule relatively speaking. You may see it as greedy pro coaches bleeding the game with vapid promises of great possibilities. Well I say buyer beware. Everybody has a free choice in that regard. We live in a free enterprise society and if these professionals can sell their services and retain their positions well good luck to them. People have been whining and complaining about poor development of the game at the grassroots level in Canada and that the CSA or somebody really ought to do something about it because without good youth programs we will never make it to the world cup. I say bully for these professional coaches who are willing to work with Canadian youth and address the very problem so many aficionados have been complaining about. I have seen the impact that paid professional coaches running a high intensity academy within my local club have had on the quality of play of the club youth teams. There is unquestionably an increase in the standard of play at all levels. These coaches do not replace the parent volunteers, they supplement them. yes it is a free country and I agree. buyer beware and I'm not suggesting running these guys out of town. but I do draw the line at club TD making more than a teacher or police officer. I also seen TD's make sure the presidents sons team become a number one priority. I also see clubs that are driven by pro coaches that see players as paid customers as not the answer to our woes. Having a provincial license is simply a piece of paper. (I have one) It means nothing. I been on courses with people who make terrible coaches. I have also coached with people who don't have CSA blessings and are great coaches. Money corrupts. It's a fact. I know a track coach whose produced Olympic athletes, he's never been paid. And with this I agree when he says "by charging athletes I rob them of funds to train and develop" And by allowing people to earn a living off kids (not just recouping expenses), we put coaches ahead of the player and the game. Which is wrong. my two cents, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 How much a club or association pays its TD is a matter of negotiation between the parties concerned, it is a free market for both the buyer and seller. If you have a beef about how much your club is paying its TD then complain to the club board of directors. Like any other normal person the prospective TD will be looking to negotiate the highest price he can for his services. It is incumbent upon any employer to conduct regular performance reviews of all employees and the same applies to the organisations who employ professional coaches. Coaching certification like any qualification is merely an indicator, actual performance/productivity will vary dramatically from one person to the next. It is up to the employer to monitor this and decide whether he/she is getting their money's worth. Yes, money corrupts, that's why it is incumbent upon the employer to monitor and review constantly like any other good employer in the marketplace. Why is it wrong for a club to employ a paid professional? Would you prefer we stay with the model of relying exclusively on parent volunteers, some of whom may be good and wll qualified but most at best are poorly trained and mediocre? That's in large part why Canadian soccer has not progressed over the past 20 years. Bringing some competent professionalism into the development of our youth players can only be a positive influence on the game. But it is up to the clubs, associations and the paying clientele to ensure they receive value for their money as in any other walk of life. If they don't they have nobody but themselves to blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Kelly the Fury run, with ten teams, each team with 20 players paying 250 a month. (600,000$). It's 12 months a year? quote:Originally posted by Kelly The money seems to be in running youth programs. Which is an entire other ethical debate. Nothing like the money in youth hockey. Is paying for any other service an "ethical debate"? Honestly, can you tell us what exactly your problem is with the Fury? Have you ever even posted anything else? Don't the Fury play all over the American north-east (Boston, Rhode Island, etc.)? I doubt those trips are cheap. Somebody has to pay for all this stuff, including the coaching. The only thing I would worry about is if this was the *only* way the CSA/provinces picked players, because then players who couldn't afford this and were playing for other teams would get overlooked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_Yank Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 The point about youth hockey is well put. I have a young cousin who plays for a traveling hockey team in South Dakota. They go all over the north looking to get games. I think his parents paid $500 just for the equipment, plus another $300 a month to belong to the club. I when I played competitive club soccer before I played in college my club costs were $30 a month. I'm from Iowa City, IA which has top level NCAA football and basketball so we got money for equipment and tournaments by cleaning the stadiums. That $30 a month was not a lot to pay and I'm 100% sure I wouldn't have played college soccer had I not had professional coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettermirror Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Technical Directors are essential to the growth of the game in this COUNTRY. the point of clubs posting a TD is, on the surface, for the benefit of their individual club. It is however, much more beneficial to have TD's posted for this country as a soccer nation. Cost is immaterial considering the benefit as a sport in this nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted November 21, 2005 Author Share Posted November 21, 2005 quote:Originally posted by bettermirror Technical Directors are essential to the growth of the game in this COUNTRY. the point of clubs posting a TD is, on the surface, for the benefit of their individual club. It is however, much more beneficial to have TD's posted for this country as a soccer nation. Cost is immaterial considering the benefit as a sport in this nation. Really? And how much should these gods make a year per chance? Does a city like Ottawa need 7-8 club TD's making 60K each? This isn't including the regional TD. ANd how many Ontario Cups have the region won in that time at the youth level? NONE. How many male national team players in the last 5-8 years since the need for a TD was created? Ummm NONE. The same could probably be said of most communities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted November 21, 2005 Author Share Posted November 21, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Crazy_Yank The point about youth hockey is well put. I have a young cousin who plays for a traveling hockey team in South Dakota. They go all over the north looking to get games. I think his parents paid $500 just for the equipment, plus another $300 a month to belong to the club. I when I played competitive club soccer before I played in college my club costs were $30 a month. I'm from Iowa City, IA which has top level NCAA football and basketball so we got money for equipment and tournaments by cleaning the stadiums. That $30 a month was not a lot to pay and I'm 100% sure I wouldn't have played college soccer had I not had professional coaching. The Ottawa Fury is 250 for 12 months per year. Tournaments like the SYL Finals and US cup are extra. These are generally about 1000 bucks a pop. so 4 years of 4400 is about what it would cost to send a kid to a Ontario school without the risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Kelly, you are entitled to your opinion and the majority here repected it ..... the first time! This is, what, the hundredth time you have raised this argument here. Newsflash. The majority here are Canadian soccer SUPPORTERS. The majority agree with paid professional coaches and think it will improve our game and performance despite what you think is happening in Ottawa. On this board you will not get many that support your argument. I have to ask .... what are you actually trying to accomplish repeatedly bringing this same argument to this group? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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