Will Toronto become the CSA's farm team?

[Robert]

Let's ASSUME that the much "all talk and no action" stadium actually gets built in Toronto. Then our favourite Canadian city will also be awarded a MLS team. The league has now publicly stated that that team will be able to have 11 Canadians on its roster (does that mean they will be able to field 11 Canadians at the same time, or will there be a restriction that there must be 4 Americans on the field at all times?). In the worst case senario, let's ASSUME only 7 Canucks get to play. If this team winds up being a farm team for the national team, what type of players will the club offer contracts to? Young up and coming players who are unproven, and who may not give the Toronto club the success needed to survive in the MLS, or old vets who could make the club more successful, but what good would they be to the national team? If Toronto wants an MLS team, fine. But don't give us a snowjob, implying that our world ranking is going to improve like the US did, because 180 Americans playing in the MLS is a little different then 7 Canadians doing the same thing. A Toronto MLS team will have some impact on the national team no doubt, but let's not speculate like some money hungry Yanks, eh?

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

Let's ASSUME that the much "all talk and no action" stadium actually gets built in Toronto. Then our favourite Canadian city will also be awarded a MLS team. The league has now publicly stated that that team will be able to have 11 Canadians on its roster (does that mean they will be able to field 11 Canadians at the same time, or will there be a restriction that there must be 4 Americans on the field at all times?). In the worst case senario, let's ASSUME only 7 Canucks get to play. If this team winds up being a farm team for the national team, what type of players will the club offer contracts to? Young up and coming players who are unproven, and who may not give the Toronto club the success needed to survive in the MLS, or old vets who could make the club more successful, but what good would they be to the national team? If Toronto wants an MLS team, fine. But don't give us a snowjob, implying that our world ranking is going to improve like the US did, because 180 Americans playing in the MLS is a little different then 7 Canadians doing the same thing. A Toronto MLS team will have some impact on the national team no doubt, but let's not speculate like some money hungry Yanks, eh?

Robert. Why are you being so obtuse. Limit Canadians on the field to seven? What is the cause of these imaginative delusions?

Why don't you re-read Garber's comments and then come back and retract these ridiculous statements.

Unbelievable.

db

[Richard]

Robert being his usual self I see.

[Elias]

Well that's 7 more players than right now. So take those 7, plus 4 from Europe = 11 (that is how many is on the field at once right?)

So Canada will have an amazing team!!! GO MLS!!! I think Canada can win the 2010 World Cup!!! I predict 5-0 over Portugal in the final!!!

[Guest HamiltonSteelers]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

So Canada will have an amazing team!!! GO MLS!!! I think Canada can win the 2010 World Cup!!! I predict 5-0 over Portugal in the final!!!

HAHAHAHA!!... That's is such a farce and it would NEVER happen in my lifetime. I mean, I appreciate your optimism, but the likelihood of that coming to fruition is somewhere between slim and nil. God, what were you thinking man.

Portugal in a World Cup final. *rolls eyes*

[RealGooner]

It willl be a sort of farm team until the other cities get in. then there will be 2 or maybe 3 farm teams, if Saputo changes his tune.

[DJT]

I think Robert's history and style of expression are clouding his key point here.

American MLS teams must have 15 Americans on their roster of 18. We've had numerous debates here regarding what this quota would mean for a Canadian team. Most people felt that a Canadian team would be subject to a similar quota, except that it would be 15 Canadians instead of Americans.

So now we are hearing that it would be only 11 Canadians. Why is that? (Not that I'm surprised in the slightest. I basically expected it, though I never posted it. However I am surprised that there has not been greater discussion about this new info here.)

Well, I'd say that MLSE have something to do with it. Note that even with only 11 Canadians Peddie expressed concern that his team would not be competitive (hence, he would certainly not want 15 Canadians).

As a result of Peddie's concerns, MLS have promised him a higher salary cap. Where will this extra money be spent? My expectation (this time I'll say it in advance) is that it won't be used to get better Canadians to come back from Europe, but rather to get foreigners. I also doubt that competitiveness is Peddie's only concern: surely he's also thinking that a foreign "star" or two or three would be more appealing to Toronto fans. I think there is little reason to believe that a Toronto MLS team made up predominantly of Canadians would be more appealing to Toronto fans, and certainly not the "ethnic" fans that Garber claims are a good reason to put a team in Toronto.

Now, about the 7 Canadians Robert spoke of: if there are 11 Canadians on a roster of 18, how many would you expect to be regulars on the field? I don't think 7 is far off.

[Gordon]

But is that right? The "11 of 18" I mean. The only place I recall seeing it was presented more like a throwaway comment by Peddie in one of G-L's posts. I wasn't sure of the validity or context (not on G-L's part but on what Peddie was saying).

[DoyleG]

18 Player Roster for MLS

4 SI's are added (Note that Developmental Rosters have no such limit)

14 position remaining

Add Canadians who ar already capped with other countries.

In this case, Former US International Mark Chung (San Jose) and Jamacian International Andy Williams (Real Salt Lake) plus another player that would fit into that category.

That leaves 11 positions left

[DJT]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

But is that right? The "11 of 18" I mean. The only place I recall seeing it was presented more like a throwaway comment by Peddie in one of G-L's posts. I wasn't sure of the validity or context (not on G-L's part but on what Peddie was saying).

There have been so many articles and threads that it's been tough to keep track. I think G-L was the first person to post anything about this, but I got it from this article (link to Toronto Star site) posted in another thread. The relevant excerpt:

quote:MLSE president Richard Peddie said he's been told that 11 of the 18 players on a Toronto squad would be Canadian.

Peddie said he was worried that might hurt the team's chances of success but that he was told a Toronto team might be allowed to spend more money than other clubs (MLS teams have to adhere to a league-mandated budget) in order to attract top talent.

[Andrew W]

quote:Originally posted by DJT

I think Robert's history and style of expression are clouding his key point here.

American MLS teams must have 15 Americans on their roster of 18. We've had numerous debates here regarding what this quota would mean for a Canadian team. Most people felt that a Canadian team would be subject to a similar quota, except that it would be 15 Canadians instead of Americans.

So now we are hearing that it would be only 11 Canadians. Why is that? (Not that I'm surprised in the slightest. I basically expected it, though I never posted it. However I am surprised that there has not been greater discussion about this new info here.)

Well, I'd say that MLSE have something to do with it. Note that even with only 11 Canadians Peddie expressed concern that his team would not be competitive (hence, he would certainly not want 15 Canadians).

As a result of Peddie's concerns, MLS have promised him a higher salary cap. Where will this extra money be spent? My expectation (this time I'll say it in advance) is that it won't be used to get better Canadians to come back from Europe, but rather to get foreigners. I also doubt that competitiveness is Peddie's only concern: surely he's also thinking that a foreign "star" or two or three would be more appealing to Toronto fans. I think there is little reason to believe that a Toronto MLS team made up predominantly of Canadians would be more appealing to Toronto fans, and certainly not the "ethnic" fans that Garber claims are a good reason to put a team in Toronto.

Now, about the 7 Canadians Robert spoke of: if there are 11 Canadians on a roster of 18, how many would you expect to be regulars on the field? I don't think 7 is far off.

How many Canadians would ultimately be on the field is up for debate. However, the rules of MLS are being somewhat misrepresented. In their regulations listed on MLSnet.com there is no information that leads me to believe that there must be 15 of 18 senior roster spots designated for Americans. Currently, as an example, Colorado has four senior internationals on their roster which means they are senior roster players. Therefore only 14 of 18 spots are being held by "domestic" players.

How it works currently is there are 18 senior roster players and up to 10 developmental roster players. Of those potential 28 players four can be senior internationals (25 and older) and three can be youth internationals (24 and younger). Any of the 28 are eligible for selection for the gameday squad. They are broken into designations of senior and development roster players for contractual reasons. Senior internationals are automatically senior roster players while youth internationals can be either. You'll see the designation SYI on some rosters meaning that these youth internationals are senior roster players (contractually speaking).

For 2005 and 2006 the two expansion teams are allowed an additional two youth international slots. Thus Chivas USA and Real Salt Lake can have up to nine of their 28 spots taken by non-domestic players (although Chivas USA have more because youth international slots can be traded). Currently Los Angeles Galaxy have seven international players under senior roster contracts (a mix of youth internationals and senior internationals). Add to that another player (Tyrone Marshall) on their senior roster isn't an American but qualifies likely through residency or a green card. The ability to trade for youth international slots makes a huge difference to rosters. Conversely there are a few rosters in MLS that are overwhelmingly filled by domestic players.

So, to bring it around to the potential Canadian team let's assume they simply reverse the rules and where it says domestic player it means Canadian or Canadian eligible (like Andy Williams or Mark Chung). If for 2007 expansion the league holds the same rules in terms of internationals (meaning they don't increase the quotas), then for the first two years of the franchise's existance there could be up to nine non-domestic players before making a single deal to acquire more youth international slots. That means 19 of the 28 players on the full roster could potentially be Canadian or the equivalent. Of those, how many would be Canadian MNT eligible would depend on who is signed. Of those 19 players, how many actually are in the starting 11 or on the game-day roster again depends on who's signed and how committed management is to finding quality Canadians.

Where the mucky-mucks are getting the number 11 Canadians is by subtracting the maximum number of internationals allowed under basic MLS rules from the senior roster limit of 18. This tells me they plan to max the allowable foreign content even before the franchise is finalized.

Suffice to say this will all depend on the approach of the team's management and coaching staff. It's too early in the game for anyone (let alone Peddie) to determine how competitive the team would be simply because they don't know what Canadian talent would be available nor the quality of foreign player they'll be able to attract at a rate lower than an equivalently skilled Canadian.

My thought is the up to 19 Canadians on this first MLS North team (whenever it arrives) will be older vets (either from USL battles or who are done with their overseas career (maybe a Radzinski)) and young players who need to develop and can't contribute much off the get-go. Personally, I'd rather see such a team go for loading up on developing Canadians rather than trying to pry expensive Canucks from overseas. This way, even though it will fewer jobs than maybe some envisioned originally, at least it will be new players employed in pro soccer rather than back-filling with players who already are full-time pros.

Ultimately none of this will matter until 1) a franchise is actually forthcoming (meaning signed, sealed, delivered) and 2) the rules for the franchise are determined.

BTW, the rules and regulations for MLS can be accessed here: MLS rules and regs

You can surf around the website to look at current rosters in MLS to see how the rules are applied (and manipulated where need be).

[DJT]

Thanks Andrew. I tried briefly to find the regulations on the MLS site but couldn't find them — I'm still not sure how to access them from the front page.

quote:Originally posted by Andrew W

Suffice to say this will all depend on the approach of the team's management and coaching staff.

That's my concern if we're talking MLSE. Regardless of the exact numbers and how accurate his assessment is, the fact that Peddie has any concern at all about having a minimum number of Canadians is the problem in my eyes.

[Andrew W]

quote:Originally posted by DJT

Thanks Andrew. I tried briefly to find the regulations on the MLS site but couldn't find them — I'm still not sure how to access them from the front page.

That's my concern if we're talking MLSE. Regardless of the exact numbers and how accurate his assessment is, the fact that Peddie has any concern at all about having a minimum number of Canadians is the problem in my eyes.

From the front page you have to scroll all the way to the bottom of the page to the, literally, fine print at the bottom. In a blue strip there are a selection of items. Click on About MLS and that opens the page to where you can select rules and regulations.

That's why, and I'm not sure who made the assessment in a previous thread, if (a big if IMHO) this team ever comes to fruition they need a guy like Frank Yallop as GM or coach because at least he knows the Canadian player pool and how it would translate into MLS competition. Peddie, like most Canadians, likely knows little about the Canadian pool of players beyond the guys he won't be able to access regardless of salary cap relaxations by the league. Anyways, I have my doubts about who MLSE would put in charge of this potential team, considering the choices they've made at GM for both the Raptors and Leafs.

[Robert]

If a Toronto MLS franchise is intended to have any impact on the Canadian Men's Team, doesn't anyone feel that the MLS should put something regarding the quota of Canadian players on a Toronto roster in writing before the deal gets done. As this would be the first Canadian club, and for that matter first non U.S. based club in the MLS, many arising issues would be of a precedent setting nature. Nows the time to get everything in writing, before the Toronto club winds up with only a couple of token Canadians on the field. There needs to be in writing quotas regarding the number of Canadians on the field at all times if this club has any intentions of making even the slightest impact on the CMNT as Gerber, Pipe, Sharpe, and many others have implied in their sales-pitches. If this isn't done before Toronto is awarded a MLS franchise, don't expect too many Toronto players to be wearing our national colours.

[Yob]

What will happen to the Toronto MLS team when Canada plays? The MLS doesn't usually stop during the international breaks? The current American teams may lose a few players each when the US plays, what'll happen when Toronto loses 10 players?

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by Yob

What will happen to the Toronto MLS team when Canada plays? The MLS doesn't usually stop during the international breaks? The current American teams may lose a few players each when the US plays, what'll happen when Toronto loses 10 players?

I'm sure quite a few MNT players willl continue to ply their trade in Europe (staltieri,etc), so I dont believe that anything like 10 first team players on the MNT will, be from Toronto.

[Jason]

I find it interesting and amusing that Peddie thinks they can't be competitive, even with a reduced amount of Canadians. What does the CSA think of this? Isn't the point of this team from their perspective to help develop Canadian talent?

When you consider that there are probably 6 to 8 Canadians in the USL that could make a Toronto MLS roster, combine that with a couple of the Canucks already in the league moving over to Toronto, a few guys coming back from Europe (3 to 4 max) and the foreign content as on the other clubs and I think you've got a roster of 18 and a reasonably competitive team.

Jason

[DJT]

quote:Originally posted by Jason

I find it interesting and amusing that Peddie thinks they can't be competitive, even with a reduced amount of Canadians. What does the CSA think of this? Isn't the point of this team from their perspective to help develop Canadian talent?

You're right about the CSA. The question is, what say would they have? Would they be able to tell MLSE what to do?

As for Peddie, apart from the fact that he probably doesn't know much (if anything) about Canadian soccer (or soccer in general), I don't think this is all about being competitive on the field. See my comments earlier in this thread about the appeal of foreign players.

[SamIAm]

I read in an article after they made the announcement (I believe it was Peddie who was being interviewed) that if or when Toronto does get a team, the CSA, USSF, MLS players union, and MLS would come up with a solution when it comes to exactly how Canadians, and Americans are designated on this team. I'm pretty sure all of the above mentioned groups would have a problem if the team didn't have any Americans on the team, except maybe the USSF, and I'm not sure how much say they would really have in the situation.

In the NASL didn't they have to have atleast three Americans or domestic players on the team or something like that? And if so could they possibly do something like that with a Canadian team?

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Jason

I find it interesting and amusing that Peddie thinks they can't be competitive, even with a reduced amount of Canadians. What does the CSA think of this? Isn't the point of this team from their perspective to help develop Canadian talent?

When you consider that there are probably 6 to 8 Canadians in the USL that could make a Toronto MLS roster, combine that with a couple of the Canucks already in the league moving over to Toronto, a few guys coming back from Europe (3 to 4 max) and the foreign content as on the other clubs and I think you've got a roster of 18 and a reasonably competitive team.

Jason

Like anyone in their right mind commit to season tickets for the Canadian National team calling itself an MLS side.

20 times a year would be cruel punishment.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Like anyone in their right mind commit to season tickets for the Canadian National team calling itself an MLS side.

20 times a year would be cruel punishment.

Spoken like a true fan.