Coaches Speak

[ANC2]

On my recent trip to Brazil. I watched several games and had the opportnity to speak with two well know Brazilian coaches. Due to respect for them I would not use names, though one has extensive experience in our region ????

I asked both if they were familiar with football in Canada, both said yes. One saw the U20 in UAE and Holland. What was interesting both coaches viewed the Canadian federation as not being honestly ambitious about qualifying for the WC. "They do not invest enough in gicving the team experience. This is true for every age group."

Both also said they would not be interested in the job with the present support. I asked about the ability of the players in Canada.

They were I suspect being very polite, but in a nutshell they said that the majority of the players were not technically good enough. "This limits what can be done with them as a team."

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by ANC2

On my recent trip to Brazil. I watched several games and had the opportnity to speak with two well know Brazilian coaches. Due to respect for them I would not use names, though one has extensive experience in our region ????

I asked both if they were familiar with football in Canada, both said yes. One saw the U20 in UAE and Holland. What was interesting both coaches viewed the Canadian federation as not being honestly ambitious about qualifying for the WC. "They do not invest enough in gicving the team experience. This is true for every age group."

Both also said they would not be interested in the job with the present support. I asked about the ability of the players in Canada.

They were I suspect being very polite, but in a nutshell they said that the majority of the players were not technically good enough. "This limits what can be done with them as a team."

Interesting info and thanks for sharing that. Can't say that I am entirely surprised by their assessment. The technical aspect IMO was particularly evident in that game versus Colombia.

Initially I was inclined to say that many of the short commings that they mentioned could be address by having better and bigger club(s). Which would mean that they ( the clubs )would assumed having the vested interest in player development rather than a scattered group of volunteer coaches under the guidance of regional and provincial associations. By this I would mean having and MLS club with a reserve side and subsequent lower level amateur side. Much like the case with Ali Ngon/Gerba who was drafted by the Miami Fusion and the played on a reserve or development side.

But upon reflection, I quickly realised that the womens games world wide does not have strong professional infrastructures. We are not at the disadvantage in regards to club structure in the womens game as we are in the mens game yet, you could make a strong argument, that the technical/skill gap between canada and the rest of the world is bigger in the womens game than it is in the mens game. So maybe there is something wrong in the grass roots.

[Loud Mouth Soup]

This coming from coaches whose national youth program just lost to Gambia last night.

Gambia.

3-1.

I know, I know, it's petty. But I laugh when people brush off other nations, then get a good hiding soon after.

[Guest Ed]

quote:Originally posted by Loud Mouth Soup

This coming from coaches whose national youth program just lost to Gambia last night.

Gambia.

3-1.

I know, I know, it's petty. But I laugh when people brush off other nations, then get a good hiding soon after.

A steaming turd to you sir!

"She never laughed when she was with me". Anon.

[ANC2]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Interesting info and thanks for sharing that. Can't say that I am entirely surprised by their assessment. The technical aspect IMO was particularly evident in that game versus Colombia.

Initially I was inclined to say that many of the short commings that they mentioned could be address by having better and bigger club(s). Which would mean that they ( the clubs )would assumed having the vested interest in player development rather than a scattered group of volunteer coaches under the guidance of regional and provincial associations. By this I would mean having and MLS club with a reserve side and subsequent lower level amateur side. Much like the case with Ali Ngon/Gerba who was drafted by the Miami Fusion and the played on a reserve or development side.

But upon reflection, I quickly realised that the womens games world wide does not have strong professional infrastructures. We are not at the disadvantage in regards to club structure in the womens game as we are in the mens game yet, you could make a strong argument, that the technical/skill gap between canada and the rest of the world is bigger in the womens game than it is in the mens game. So maybe there is something wrong in the grass roots.

The women's game is way off and has not evolved. What is scary is that we in Canada had a huge head start in the womens game, over teams like Brazil and Mexico. And already Brazil have gone past us and Mexico have caught up.

But I don't want to get into womens football because most Nations do not take it seriously. I am not saying they are right or wrong I am just stating facts.

You are right we need club football and the CSA and all involved should do their best to make something happen. If a National League is not possible lets think regions. But lets start somewhere if not STOP COMPLAINING

The fact that Brazil lost to Gambia is no big thing Brazil holds the most wins at a youth and senior level. What we should take from this is not what Brazil has or has not achieved, but how experienced coaches see our game. Do they have a valid point? Are our present coaches being given a knife and sent to a gun fight? Can we realistically compete with the rest of CONCACAF and the world, when we do not invest in youth football? Is this lack of investment the root of our problems at the top. Would more games for Yallop build the experience necessary to push for 2010???

[Canuck Oranje]

It is always interesting to get the points of view from foreign coaches. However, it should also be noted that context in each country also has to be considered carefully before considering the comments too seriously. Having spent a fair amount of time in Brazil over the last two years, I also have developed an opinion on what happens there.

Do they have a valid point?

Yes they do. I also agree that the CSA does not come across as being all that concerned about winning. They may not have the money to invest but they at least could treat WCQ as the top priority. That means proper preparation and putting the team in the best position possible to win.

Are our present coaches being given a knife and sent to a gun fight?

Yes when you send players from all over Europe to Vancouver to play a qualifying match only 5 days after playing for their clubs in Europe, it is asking for miracles.

Can we realistically compete with the rest of CONCACAF and the world, when we do not invest in youth football?

Yes, we can compete with CONCACAF if properly prepared. As for investing in youth football, I suspect our national association invests as much in youth football per player as Brazil and probably more (especially when you deduct the graft that goes to Ricardo Texeira). It is the clubs in Brazil that invest in youth football. You can probably get six or seven U-20 teams in Sao Paulo alone that could compete (maybe not win) against Brazil's U-20 team. That is not something we can do in Canada simply because of population. As I posted before, Brazil is not a good example of how to do youth soccer development.

Is this lack of investment the root of our problems at the top?

No. If we focused our limited funds on age 14 - 20, and had some high quality places for these youth to play, our U-20 team would look a lot better. The creativity and skill shown by Brazilian players was learned as much on the streets as through instruction by Brazilian coaches. I wouldn't be surprised to find a team of U14 boys from Morumbi(Sao Paulo) favelas that have never seen a formal coach that could compete in the top U-14 leagues in Ontario. That's not knocking the coaches in Ontario. That's just saying that the volume of youth players in Brazil is enormous and you don't need to be a rocket scientist to be a youth coach in Brazil.

Would more games for the MNT build the experience necessary?

Yes it would. Yallop should look to Hiddink's approach with South Korea before WC2002 and he should be taking notes when Hiddink takes over the Australian side. When you don't have a domestic league of note, it is even more important to develop a system of play (domestic leagues tend to set a style of play) at the national level. I expect Hiddink will set up a European training base for Australia.

The bottom line for Canada is just that. The bottom line. Where can we find the money? Don't expect it to come from government or from local youth teams.

When is the last time Brazil's CBF actually paid its own fare for the NT for a friendly? It is easy to raise money when everyone wants to play you.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

Of course Canadian kids have a lower skills level than Brazil, it is obvious. I would suspect that they have a lower skill level than most European countries as well.

I had my son in a Whitecaps summer camp this August. Sure, many kids there were only playing soccer that sole week, and did not during the year. Others were part of club structures. I saw some very good skills from the girls, better than in Spain where we live, but the boys were quite a bit worse in general. And the coaching of skills, of working with the ball, was quite a bit lower (unlike the human side of their coaches, or the organization of the camp in general, which was excellent).

Take this example: my son was one of the better players in his training group, perhaps the best, and other parents asked me about him. One wondered where he would fit in in his Spanish club hierarchy, and I had to tell him that he was in the lower middle. This is simply because at six he can control, pass, shoot, tackle and dribble reasonably well, and if you tell him where to play in a seven a side set up he'll go immediately to the spot.

To add to this, I also took him to a pre-game clinic, which was basically a kid-around an hour and a half before a match (league match vs. Richmond mid August). There, where many kids had come together from clubs, the level was quite a bit better. Once again the girls were quite sharp, but I also saw some nice stuff from the boys (my kid played vs. 8-9 year olds who were sharp).

It seems to me that one way to raise the general level is to get those kids playing well on good clubs into the structures of even better clubs as they stand out over the years, to compete at a higher level, but this simply does not occur in a systematic way in Canada.

[Gian-Luca]

Just as an aside, I don't think the MLS had a reserve or a developmental side when Ali "played" for the Fusion. That's why he gained so much weight that year.

[Observer]

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

It is always interesting to get the points of view from foreign coaches. However, it should also be noted that context in each country also has to be considered carefully before considering the comments too seriously. Having spent a fair amount of time in Brazil over the last two years, I also have developed an opinion on what happens there.

Do they have a valid point?

Yes they do. I also agree that the CSA does not come across as being all that concerned about winning. They may not have the money to invest but they at least could treat WCQ as the top priority. That means proper preparation and putting the team in the best position possible to win.

Are our present coaches being given a knife and sent to a gun fight?

Yes when you send players from all over Europe to Vancouver to play a qualifying match only 5 days after playing for their clubs in Europe, it is asking for miracles.

Can we realistically compete with the rest of CONCACAF and the world, when we do not invest in youth football?

Yes, we can compete with CONCACAF if properly prepared. As for investing in youth football, I suspect our national association invests as much in youth football per player as Brazil and probably more (especially when you deduct the graft that goes to Ricardo Texeira). It is the clubs in Brazil that invest in youth football. You can probably get six or seven U-20 teams in Sao Paulo alone that could compete (maybe not win) against Brazil's U-20 team. That is not something we can do in Canada simply because of population. As I posted before, Brazil is not a good example of how to do youth soccer development.

Is this lack of investment the root of our problems at the top?

No. If we focused our limited funds on age 14 - 20, and had some high quality places for these youth to play, our U-20 team would look a lot better. The creativity and skill shown by Brazilian players was learned as much on the streets as through instruction by Brazilian coaches. I wouldn't be surprised to find a team of U14 boys from Morumbi(Sao Paulo) favelas that have never seen a formal coach that could compete in the top U-14 leagues in Ontario. That's not knocking the coaches in Ontario. That's just saying that the volume of youth players in Brazil is enormous and you don't need to be a rocket scientist to be a youth coach in Brazil.

Would more games for the MNT build the experience necessary?

Yes it would. Yallop should look to Hiddink's approach with South Korea before WC2002 and he should be taking notes when Hiddink takes over the Australian side. When you don't have a domestic league of note, it is even more important to develop a system of play (domestic leagues tend to set a style of play) at the national level. I expect Hiddink will set up a European training base for Australia.

The bottom line for Canada is just that. The bottom line. Where can we find the money? Don't expect it to come from government or from local youth teams.

When is the last time Brazil's CBF actually paid its own fare for the NT for a friendly? It is easy to raise money when everyone wants to play you.

Some good points made here. I did not read that the coaches were comparing Canada to Brazil at all, rather Canada on a World stage.

Your point about the clubs developing the players is a good one and clubs are largely responsible for producing the talent pool for any football country. So in short Canada has to improve on this end.

As for the streets producing footballers, those days are over in Sao Paulo the streets are too crowded for any football to be played. Most players coming out of Brazil are in clubs from the age of 8-10. Look at Saviola he was at River from age 8.

Most football Nations today invest a fair chunk of $$ into youth football, at both a club and National level. Brazil has two or three youth teams for one age playing in several tournaments. Last year they were in a tournament in France and Italy for the same age group at the same time.

[Canuck Oranje]

My point about the street producing footballers is this. The culture develops footballers more than coaches at 8-10. I also beg to differ about kids in Sao Paulo being in clubs at 8-10. Maybe with the middle class but the bulk of the population still does not have the money to bring kids to the clubs.

quote:Originally posted by Observer

Some good points made here. I did not read that the coaches were comparing Canada to Brazil at all, rather Canada on a World stage.

Your point about the clubs developing the players is a good one and clubs are largely responsible for producing the talent pool for any football country. So in short Canada has to improve on this end.

As for the streets producing footballers, those days are over in Sao Paulo the streets are too crowded for any football to be played. Most players coming out of Brazil are in clubs from the age of 8-10. Look at Saviola he was at River from age 8.

Most football Nations today invest a fair chunk of $$ into youth football, at both a club and National level. Brazil has two or three youth teams for one age playing in several tournaments. Last year they were in a tournament in France and Italy for the same age group at the same time.

[redhat]

What did you expect a Brazilian coach to say?

Here's what a Brazilian/Argentine/Portuguese/Spanish/Italian/

French/Guatemalan/Mexican coach WOULD NEVER say about the way we play:

"Wow, they play a different brand of football that is indicative

of the traditions in that country. It is not attractive, but

it can be effective at times. If only they can do the following ..."

I can guarantee they will never say that, and in fact they will

always tell you what's wrong with us. Brazilians laughed when

they found out that the anchor of our Copa America squad in 2001 was

Tony Menezes.

I'm just glad they're polite about our MNT. We should just worry

about what we should do rather than what other say about us.

Comparing any non-powerhouse to a Brazil is futile.

[I Caramba]

I agree with what Jeffrey S and canuck Oranje said.

Plus, I would add- how many coaches in brazil are teaching 8-9 year olds how to kick a ball? I would guess very few. Like learning to walk, kids in soccer cultures (and soccer families here) learn to use their bodies to control and propel the ball largely without having to be "taught". We have lots of kids in Canada who don't choose to play soccer in their spare time, so 1 hr of practice and 1 hr game per week is just about it. Coaches here spend time trying to "coach" things [like how to kick a ball for ****sake] that developing players really should be learning on their own, with their dad/mum or their brothers/sisters.

I bet in Brazil, france, the UK etc the number of hours spent on the ball by kids, unsupervised by adults, is much more. Drop a container of free playstations in Sao Paulo and they will be exactly where we are now.

Unlike ski-ing, swimming, and other sports, the typical canadian soccer club- where most of the kids are- does two illogical things- (i) big emphasis on parent-centred competitive games and leagues even with 6 year olds and (ii) Making kids who love to play and choose to play every waking moment, play with kids who are there for other (legitimate) reasons but haven't learned to kick the ball yet. Everyone loses. Including the "weaker" smaller or more timid kids who might turn into good players, if they were allowed to develop at their own speed, which they aren't. Been for a ski lesson lately? Do they make beginners and good ski-ers ski together on the green runs, for the first 4 years regardless of how much time they've spent ski-ing? No, of course not. Yet that's what canadian soccer clubs do with 6-10 year old soccer players, for reasons that seem totally logical to most adult parents, who are focussed on games and leagues, and are probably the right thing for most kids in the system we have.

And soccer schools aren't much better as its generally the parents who push the kids rather than motivation from within.

The "style" of play thing starts when they are six. How many times have you heard a coach shout "finish your check" at a player who has just lost the ball? I hear it all the time. A little skilled kid usually gets hammered from behind right afterwards. If you teach them to play hockey with a soccer ball, that's what you'll get.

Soccer's a competitive sport and even in that department, left to themselves the kids organize themselves better in the schoolyard than many/most sideline parent-dominated club games. And I say this as a soccer coach.

So... we do what we can, and try to help the kids who love the game, play the game.

We've got healthy, quick, agile, intelligent kids, so we should be able to take on brazil by, oh, say 2020 ???

[denis]

[

quote:Originally posted by I Caramba

We've got healthy, quick, agile, intelligent kids, so we should be able to take on brazil by, oh, say 2020 ???

We'll be able to take on Brazil in oh, say 2020. Yea, maybe in a game of EA Sports FIFA 2020. Unfortunately the trend (in these paranoid days) is that many parents are content to see their kids come home from school to the safety of their house, eat chips and vid out. Child obesity is climbing exponentially in this country for a reason. I see this as one of the major obstacles of Canada being more competitive with countries like Brazil (in most any sport). Yes I know many people think “What about the Americans, they enjoy great success in their sport and athletic achievements, and they have similar life style habits as us Canadians”. This is true but they more then make up for it through heavy commercial funding and sponsorship.

[way2goeh]

What? Canada is a soccer country?

signed,

the rest of the brasilian coaches that werent interviewed, President Lula, Paulo Maluf, Robinho, and of course that POS Alan Sharpe

[redhat]

quote:Originally posted by way2goeh

What? Canada is a soccer country?

signed,

the rest of the brasilian coaches that werent interviewed, President Lula, Paulo Maluf, Robinho, and of course that POS Alan Sharpe

Exactly. But who's Alan Sharpe?

[dutcy]

I would like to make a point on the issue of the Brazilian coaches opinion about our youth's lack of technical skill and talent in comparison to those of the real soccer nations. Unlike hockey, the soccer youth has no real incentives in the game of soccer.One can count on their fingertips the limited numbers of Canadians playing pro in serious world wide leagues, excluding the hopefuls playing in different divisions(not being condescending). Another point I would like to mention here is that every year the provincial program here in Ontario(OSA) anyways sends players from ages U15 and higher I believe to Brazil for exhibition games and training development for a period of 10-12 days. Unfortunately since these trips involve costs of $2.500 and higher many talented players do not participate as their families can not afford it.Often the most talented are not even representative of the best talent in those age groups. So if Brazilian coaches feel that our youth lacks in skill and talent,and especially from what they see from our provincial players when they go to play in Brazil against their youth clubs, they should be perhaps be explained the way our structure of pyramid and development is constructed to fit simply a recreational model for Canadian youth,and not to compete on an international level.