Elias Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 People here for years have demanded an Open Cup tournament. My question is why? I can understand it from the traditional point of view, but then again, we will never have pro/rel or other traditional soccer features. I think it's pretty safe to assume, our USL D1 teams are the best, so if the Caps were to play the Impact in the final, would that really mean anything? Would that be more important than the USL D1 championship? What if the Impact won the USL D1 championship, but the Caps won the Canadian Open Cup, what would be valued more (by players and fans), and who would be considered the true champ (I guess that's a North American thing). What if Canadian hockey had an open cup tournament. Would that winner mean anything compared to the NHL Champion? (I didn't use "Stanley Cup" on purpose). There's a difference in winning a domestic league/cup and a continental cup. I guess an argument could sort of be made that an Open Cup would take the place of the domestic competition, while the USL could be the continental competition. Please note: before I get attacked, I don't necessarily agree 100% with what I wrote, I just want to know why some people here are so passionate about an Open Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJT Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 I want a national championship, like virtually every other country in the world. I don't know what else to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 quote:Originally posted by DJT I want a national championship, like virtually every other country in the world. I don't know what else to say. Parla piu piano, mio amico. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 What DJT said. We want a national champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polish_LYNX_Fan Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 why do u assume montreal and vancouver in the final ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 I doubt there is any club team in Canada - PCSL and CPSL included - that could defeat the three USL Division One teams with any degree of consistency. Ergo you have a national championship with the Voyageur Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Yeah, but the VCup excludes ANY chance of an upset and isn't recognised by the CSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HamiltonSteelers Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 I want a Canadian FA cup. I want to read about how Grimsby, Ontario defeated treble PCSL winners Vic Utd. I want to read about a 4-goal thriller between the best Quebec City side and the Impact, only to have the replay go 1-0 to the Impact. To me, the glory of the FA Cup is that though the minnows more than likely won't beat the better sides, it's the anticipation that they CAN, and that's what makes for great drama. I don't mean to wax romantic about knock-out competitions and, certainly, this idea of it being a fully national competition right off the top is impossible, but, who knows. If every year, the Open Cup can create a groundswell of support in one market that never really paid much attention before... then you have the acid test of a national competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Well you do have the nationals, pitting the champion amateur sides from each province against each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Yeah, but there are about two dozen semi-pro sides which are probably superior (many are without question) than many of those amateur squads. We WANT to see how the Ottawa Wizards would have fared against the Lynx and so on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Well Daniel, I would have thought you learned long ago that you don't always get what you want, just because you want it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 How many countries in FIFA don't name a national champion? Probably less than 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 How many countries in FIFA do not have domestic professional leagues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 A league is a very different endeavour, requiring much more money and a larger infrastructure. Right now, a Canadian Cup, minus the prize money, would cost the CSA probably under 100,000$. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T5 Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Daniel, it wouldn't cost CSA a red cent and that's the sillyness of the whole thing. There're just too small minded and lazy to make it happen. Crowning regional winners through playdowns to compete nationally; funding the prize money with the entrance fees, endorsements, and gate; could both easily be accomplished. Only thing lacking is the will of the CSA to get off its' duff and do it. You might actually accomplish something with "the minnows" playing "A" League teams. At least some serious interest in the sport might come from a Canada FA series. You have to make this sport "entertaining" to the masses of youngsters out there who play the game. You need some soccer "hero's" to maintain interest in the sport. That comes from a national-type competition. One way to get it started is the have a national open type of competition. The "A" League teams should welcome this new Canada FA. They need it to increase not only their own "fan" base, but interest in the sport itself. How can they ever expect to get proper TV coverage without an all-out effort at getting their game out to the public-at-large? JMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Richard How many countries in FIFA do not have domestic professional leagues? Us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJT Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 quote:Originally posted by T5 The "A" League teams should welcome this new Canada FA. They need it to increase not only their own "fan" base, but interest in the sport itself. Yes they should, but they don't. The CSA have actually gotten off their duff and tried to organize a competition. Have they done enough? Probably not. But the A-League teams have not been very cooperative to make things happen, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 The A-League teams have enough trouble covering their costs as it is. Without a strong and immediate financial incentive I can't see the A-League teams really being interested in incurring substantial costs merely to play a tournament mostly against some minnow teams. I doubt such games would attract a gate even matching a regular season A-League match and I also don't see any TV network being very excited about covering games between the Whitecaps say and some amateur club from the maritimes or even a CPSL team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJT Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Richard The A-League teams have enough trouble covering their costs as it is. Without a strong and immediate financial incentive I can't see the A-League teams really being interested in incurring substantial costs merely to play a tournament mostly against some minnow teams. I doubt such games would attract a gate even matching a regular season A-League match and I also don't see any TV network being very excited about covering games between the Whitecaps say and some amateur club from the maritimes or even a CPSL team. Actually it is my belief that a cup should start with only the USL D1 clubs. I think Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver playing a triangular tournament in either Montreal or Vancouver would do alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T5 Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 DJT & Richard: Any cup format would have regional championships then on to a weekend four team semi-final and final. That would limit the travel costs. There would be a gate for that type of set-up. The "A" League teams would enter the tournament for a regional final stage. This also would sell. The "Pot of Gold" ($100,000) goes to the winner. The point made about TV coverage was the assumption that if the highest level of pro soccer ever hoped for proper coverage by TV nation-wide, they must become known entities with players and teams that are known beyond the cities that they play for. Right now the general public has very limited knownledge of the existence of the "A" League teams. For them to "grow" the fan base, they can't just do the same-old. Montreal exists by a government funding scheme, Toronto is wavering and the Whitecaps are managing. The have to do more. A Canada FA might be the catalyst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 quote:Originally posted by T5 The "Pot of Gold" ($100,000) goes to the winner. Where pray tell is this treasure to be found? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Elias People here for years have demanded an Open Cup tournament. My question is why? I can understand it from the traditional point of view, but then again, we will never have pro/rel or other traditional soccer features. I think it's pretty safe to assume, our USL D1 teams are the best, so if the Caps were to play the Impact in the final, would that really mean anything? Would that be more important than the USL D1 championship? What if the Impact won the USL D1 championship, but the Caps won the Canadian Open Cup, what would be valued more (by players and fans), and who would be considered the true champ (I guess that's a North American thing). What if Canadian hockey had an open cup tournament. Would that winner mean anything compared to the NHL Champion? (I didn't use "Stanley Cup" on purpose). There's a difference in winning a domestic league/cup and a continental cup. I guess an argument could sort of be made that an Open Cup would take the place of the domestic competition, while the USL could be the continental competition. Please note: before I get attacked, I don't necessarily agree 100% with what I wrote, I just want to know why some people here are so passionate about an Open Cup. I have asked myself the same questions. If it means getting a Canadian side into the Concacaf club competitions then great. But why can't someone just pick the canadian a-league side with the best record in a given year to play in Concacaf. Is that so hard to do? Its pretty obvious that it is the clubs who are not interested. Again, I really fail to understand why anymore fans will come out to watch soccer to see and a-league side play again some semi amateurs side. I really don't get it and so far no one has told me why th r how this will create a larger fan base. Do you really think that if there was any benefit to this a canadian open cup competition, the canadian a-league clubs could not make it happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Posted January 30, 2005 Author Share Posted January 30, 2005 Some replies and comments... quote:Originally posted by Polish_LYNX_Fan why do u assume montreal and vancouver in the final ??? So all the anti-Torontonians stay quiet. We all know the final would be Toronto MLS Blizzard vs. Toronto Lynx [] I don't understand why the current CSA tournament is not open to the so called pro teams. I'm sure at least the CPSL teams would be interested since they set-up their own very similar tournament. As for the USL D1 teams, they have absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose. Imagine the disgrace if they lost to even a CPSL/PCSL side, never mind a full amateur club. Even with a $100 000 prize money (which won't happen), it's really not that much. The players would get about half (so 25 players/coaches = $2 000 each) and like $50 000 for the team. I mean it's not bad for 2-3 games work, but it's not worth the risk of losing. For those, like DJT and Daniel, that said "we want a national champion", so if we had a true top-level national league, would that be good enough? Or is part of it the whole concept of a single-game elimination tournament, like HamiltonSteelers fantasy of Grimsby vs. Stoney Creek final in Dundas. [] I agree with DJT with regards to the cup should begin with the 3 D1 teams. I would add 1 other like if Victoria hosted with United (since they won the treble last year) or maybe 1 of the CPSL champs (Croatia or Windsor) or maybe even (Vancouver?) Pegasus FC (2004 CSA champs). Attendance wise, didn't St. John's have like 7 000 people at the CSA final a couple years ago. I think this tournament would do well in a smaller community. A simple 2 day tournament, with the semis on Friday and the final on Sunday. And btw, in 2004 we had 5 national competitions with 4 different champions: 1. Montreal Impact won the double with the USL D1 championship and the Voyageurs Cup 2. Pegasus FC won the the CSA tournament 3. Windsor Border Stars (and I thought Lynx was stupid) won the Canada Cup and are the "best professional team in ALL of Canada" http://www.gatorstar.com (at the bottom) 4. Toronto Croatia is considered the Canadian champs according to CONCACAF http://www.concacaf.com/view_article.asp?id=2905 What other country has 4, count them, 4 national champions. Only Canada! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 quote:Originally posted by T5 . You might actually accomplish something with "the minnows" playing "A" League teams. At least some serious interest in the sport might come from a Canada FA series. But I don't see any value in this. Even, in Europe, no one is interested in these competitions and the only reason they still exist is tradition and nothing else. We don't have any tradition in CUP competions in Canada. Plus, attendances and interest in these events in UEFA is already dreadfull unless two larger or more reputable clubs are pitted against each other. I'll bet that if you were to distroy completely the entire club competition structure in UEFA and re-start from scratch, you would have something that resembles the A-league, NBA, NHL, MLB, and NFL. There would be no FA cup and so forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Posted January 30, 2005 Author Share Posted January 30, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Free kick But I don't see any value in this. Even, in Europe, no one is interested in these competitions and the only reason they still exist is tradition and nothing else. We don't have any tradition in CUP competions in Canada. Plus, attendances and interest in these events in UEFA is already dreadfull unless two larger or more reputable clubs are pitted against each other. I'll bet that if you were to distroy completely the entire club competition structure in UEFA and re-start from scratch, you would have something that resembles the A-league, NBA, NHL, MLB, and NFL. There would be no FA cup and so forth. It's already happening. The Champions League will eventually turn into a European Super League. Domestic leagues will become the equivilant of farm systems. They already are, it will just become official. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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