argh1 Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 After watching Burnley vs Liverpool to-day and other FA CUP games. Even though Liverpool fielded a strange team of youngsters. It strikes me that outside of the top Premiership teams there seems to be little competitive difference between Championship clubs and the mid-table down Premiership clubs. Has Premiership quality eroded or has Championship quality increased or does Premiership clubs not care as much about FA Cup and Championship clubs care alot or a combination of all. But then again this is the alure of the FA CUP minnows playing well or beating giants isn't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 The difference between the two divisions is massive! Even the worst team in the EPL could win the second-tier by at least 10 points I think. Look no further than the stat showing that over 50% of promoted sides go straight back down the next season despite the fact that they always add several new players to improve their squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettermirror Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 that didn't actually make any sense amacpher! if they were adding new players then 50% would surely be too high a number. what you have to look at is...how many relegated clubs win promotion straight away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 quote:Originally posted by bettermirror that didn't actually make any sense amacpher! if they were adding new players then 50% would surely be too high a number. what you have to look at is...how many relegated clubs win promotion straight away. Why not sense make what I said? I wouldn't look at how relegated teams fair as a major indicator here. For instance, Leeds Utd's performance this season tells us nothing about where the team would have finished had they played in division I last season. All it tells us is that they are in financial ruins right now. Anyway, when I have more time I'll figure out the exact %age of teams going straight back down since the inception of the Premier league. But I am fairly certain that it's over 50%. This season, looks like all 3 will go straight back down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Basically, teams that secure promotion are the best in the Championship. Then, they better their squads and most still don't survive that first season in the Premiership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 quote:Originally posted by argh1 Has Premiership quality eroded or has Championship quality increased or does Premiership clubs not care as much about FA Cup and Championship clubs care alot or a combination of all. Although it saddens me somewhat, I believe the allure of a CL spot dominates the agenda of most Premiership managers well down into the table. The elusive dream of a UEFA spot must be a huge motivator for the Championship sides. When no injuries meets hell bent for Europe, there's bound to be some upsets -at least that's what I'm telling myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone Although it saddens me somewhat, I believe the allure of a CL spot dominates the agenda of most Premiership managers well down into the table. The elusive dream of a UEFA spot must be a huge motivator for the Championship sides. When no injuries meets hell bent for Europe, there's bound to be some upsets -at least that's what I'm telling myself. Yeah, good point. And its probably not too healthy for the sport. I mean there's something wrong when finishing 4th in your league is a higher priority than the freakin' European and FA Cups!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argh1 Posted January 20, 2005 Author Share Posted January 20, 2005 Well if I look at the recent past, last years relagated clubs Leicester is in 16th, Wolves are in 18th and Leeds are 14th and Leeds are the club in a financial mess.From the year before Sunderland is in third and West Ham is in 7th. WBA did the boomerang down,up and it looks like down again On the otherside of the coin, WBA, Norwich & Crystal all look to be quick returnees to the Championship. Unless Southampton help one of them out and go down. With out going back too far in history I would say Birmingham and Man City were amongst the last 2 or 3 to get promoted and stay (3 maybe 4 years ago)and of course Portsmouth more recently. My feeling is that from spots 10 down in the Premiership these clubs would compete but not necessarily dominate the Championship. But how can we tell we can only argue as none of us really know. Back to the FA CUP, I can see why the top 5 may not field their best teams but Aston Villa, Man City (losing to a League 1 side ), & Crystal Palace going out in such an early stage AND Liverpool's fielding of what can only be described as a reserve team. So Liverpool placed higher priority on other competitions...so what it happens all the time ! But what's Villa's , City's & Palaces excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argh1 Posted January 20, 2005 Author Share Posted January 20, 2005 Also after a little research let's not forget the class of 2001 where Fulham, Bolton and Blackburn all went up and stayed up. So since 2001, Fulham, Blackburn, Bolton , Birmingham , Manchester City & Portsmouth have all been promoted and stayed. Do we want a list of relagated clubs that have not gone back up? Okay, West Ham, Sunderland, Ipswich, Derby, Coventry, & Bradford (now in League 1) have all been relagated since 2001 and have not returned to Premiership play and it looks like last years Leicester, Wolves, and Leeds will stay down and at least one of Norwich, Crystal or West Bromwich Albion will stay up this year with Southampton's help. Probably Crystal Palace but there's still 15 league games to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devioustrevor Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 The fact that Fulham and Portsmouth each have billionaire owners probably doesn't hurt them either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 quote:Originally posted by devioustrevor The fact that Fulham and Portsmouth each have billionaire owners probably doesn't hurt them either. Also Fulham '2001 were one of the most dominate teams in the history of division I. But then they struggled their first 2 years in the Prem. Saha went from scoring 27 goals in Division I to scoring only 8 in the Prem., despite playing almost every game. This helps illustrate that the best team in Division I history may be somewhat comparable to the bottom 10 in the Prem. league, and thus, Division I as a whole isn't even close. [8)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 quote:Originally posted by argh1 Do we want a list of relagated clubs that have not gone back up? Going back a little further and down another table: Oldham, MK Dons, Wednesday, Swindon. Although it looks like Wednesday will finally turn things around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew W Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 The best example of a yo-yo team that learned from its experience is Charlton. They were relegated in 1999, but bounced back up the following season and finished the 2000-2001 season in ninth place. The lessons they learned were to invest in the young players they already had and mix them in with good veterans that were available at a reasonable price in terms of transfer fee (if any) and wage. Thus they didn't blow the budget (a fail-safe measure in case of relegation) and they didn't spend themselves into trouble a la Leeds. They also seemed to be able to land some internationals from smaller countries that contribute well and are mostly happy just playing in the EPL. Past and current players like Claus Jensen, Radostin Kishishev, Shaun Bartlett, Jorge Costa, Hermann Hreidarsson and more recently Matt Holland, Dennis Rommedahl (although the jury's still out) and Talal El Karkouri have all contributed to this successful model. They've also had the advantage of incredible stability at the top with Alan Curbishley and Chairman Martin Simons. They also went about a reasonable plan of expanding The Valley which didn't put them into debt. As well, they have tremendously loyal support which has been galvanized by the solid fashion in which the club is run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew W Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 The best example of a yo-yo team that learned from its experience is Charlton. They were relegated in 1999, but bounced back up the following season and finished the 2000-2001 season in ninth place. The lessons they learned were to invest in the young players they already had and mix them in with good veterans that were available at a reasonable price in terms of transfer fee (if any) and wage. Thus they didn't blow the budget (a fail-safe measure in case of relegation) and they didn't spend themselves into trouble a la Leeds. They also seemed to be able to land some internationals from smaller countries that contribute well and are mostly happy just playing in the EPL. Past and current players like Claus Jensen, Radostin Kishishev, Shaun Bartlett, Jorge Costa, Hermann Hreidarsson and more recently Matt Holland, Dennis Rommedahl (although the jury's still out) and Talal El Karkouri have all contributed to this successful model. They've also had the advantage of incredible stability at the top with Alan Curbishley and Chairman Martin Simons. They also went about a reasonable plan of expanding The Valley which didn't put them into debt. As well, they have tremendously loyal support which has been galvanized by the solid fashion in which the club is run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argh1 Posted January 21, 2005 Author Share Posted January 21, 2005 Does anyone know what the parachute payment is for clubs who fall out of the Premiership? To help clubs adjust to life without the large TV $$ ? The last story I can find is from 2001 where it states 6 million pounds for 2 years. Is that possible 12 million pounds total for being relagated? Or was that based on that digital TV deal that fell through? Edit: From premierleague.com FAQ'S 50% of TV money split equally amongst the 20 Premier League teams and 25% based on TV appearances also 25% based on League standings. With some going to relagated clubs as a parachute payment? Adds up to more than 100% to me.....or am I showing my density again. Link Question #4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devioustrevor Posted January 21, 2005 Share Posted January 21, 2005 quote:also 25% based on League standings Parachute payments probably are made from this portion of TV money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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