since I do not know these things yet.

[foreverthursday]

I am glad that we all calm down and had a good discussion. =D

I could understand what you said, but unfortunetly I never really searched about hockey system (and I consider myself a Buffalo Sabres Fan hahahaha, oh well). From the point that I know about sports in North America, the AHL works in the same way as the baseball AAA League (and the entire system) and like the D-League in NBA right? One or more teams own this farm teams, and send the young/unused players to keep playing there, right?

If is that what you saying, then I will tell you that I don't think this will happen between MLS and NASL/USL, cuz in soccer, different from others sports, we are used to many division as we can hold. Here in Brazil there is 4 divisions (from A to D). When I team finish in the first four spots in Série D, next year the play in Série C, and keeps going. It's like soccer fans over there call promotion/relegation. Thats what (kind) is happening in North America, except there is no pro/rel yet.

In the past MLS and USL(now with many teams in NASL) used to "compete" to be considered the best league in US and Canada (USL never had really chance), but from last year, MLS is standing as Division I, with the new Division II League with teams from USL and NASL.

I don't know if you heard, but MLS used to have a Reserve League, which is basically the same thing as a Farm League, except the fact that the teams are called B teams and play in the same stadium as the first team. MLS, USL and NASL are talking about bringing this league back, having B teams from MLS, NASL and USL.

Did I make myself clear?

Cheers brother!

Yes! That made perfect sense thank you very much. So if we had the same system here, the poorest and lowest ranked MLS teams could be regulated down if we had another division? Or if do they not tiered divisions at all, and just skip from the MLS to the NASL?

[closetboostie]

Richard is right

The NHL, AHL, and ECHL are in no means "tied" together. The association between independent clubs and teams is totally voluntary and often AHL & ECHL teams have players that are not part of an NHL organization. However, some clubs are tied together by the fact that they have the same parent organization eg. Toronto Maple Leafs & Marlies under MLSE.

This is correct. Some organizations own both the NHL team and an American League team, so naturally they affiliate. But teams and affiliations change all the time, and especially at the East Coast level. The players at these lower levels are even more independent, some players can be called up to three or more American League teams in a year on just a tryout. The American League teams all negotiate affiliation agreements based on necessity, they need players to fill their roster, but often the independent owners will go out and sign guys on their own. And most ECHL teams have very loose affiliations if any.

I'm not against the USL and NASL merging, after all the teams used to be all one league anyway. But if there is one big draft that MLS uses to pick players from all the feeder teams, I don't see the incentive for these teams to keep developing their academies, and the players that are supposed to help the league grow. I like the European model where the clubs develop the players and the incentive to spend the money is to have them star for the club or sell them off to someone bigger. The teams pay for the development, unlike hockey where it's on the parents of kids to foot the bill. In Canada, that's just not going to be enough to move the development model forward.

[foreverthursday]

This is correct. Some organizations own both the NHL team and an American League team, so naturally they affiliate. But teams and affiliations change all the time, and especially at the East Coast level. The players at these lower levels are even more independent, some players can be called up to three or more American League teams in a year on just a tryout. The American League teams all negotiate affiliation agreements based on necessity, they need players to fill their roster, but often the independent owners will go out and sign guys on their own. And most ECHL teams have very loose affiliations if any.

I'm not against the USL and NASL merging, after all the teams used to be all one league anyway. But if there is one big draft that MLS uses to pick players from all the feeder teams, I don't see the incentive for these teams to keep developing their academies, and the players that are supposed to help the league grow. I like the European model where the clubs develop the players and the incentive to spend the money is to have them star for the club or sell them off to someone bigger. The teams pay for the development, unlike hockey where it's on the parents of kids to foot the bill. In Canada, that's just not going to be enough to move the development model forward.

I have an honest question in that regard then. Does that mean that Acadamies have territorial rights to young players?

Let us say that Alberta isn't creating a lot of talented kids, but greater Toronto is. Does that mean they will be a dominant franchise empire for years to come? It seems fair in one hand, but completely unbalanced in the other.

[granemannrosa]

Yes! That made perfect sense thank you very much. So if we had the same system here, the poorest and lowest ranked MLS teams could be regulated down if we had another division? Or if do they not tiered divisions at all, and just skip from the MLS to the NASL?

Yes, that could happen, but I don't see it happen until 2020, maybe even later and many thins will have to change to this happen.

The thing about all those pro/rel here in Brasil (and many countries in the world: England, Spain, France, etc) is the fact that all teams are independent and the federation is the one who organize and command the league. This don't happen with MLS but it's kind of similar in USL/NASL. When a player sign with Toronto F.C., he actually sign with MLS and he is passed up to TFC. When another player sign with Montreal Impact, he signs with Montreal Impact, not with NASL.

The idea of bringing this Reserve League back is exacly what you want: have like farm teams with young/unused players playing. But the key to understand everthing is that this wont happen between MLS and USL/NASL but between MLS WITH USL/NASL. That means that all MLS will have B teams and all USL/NASL will also will have B teams that will play in the same.

That's one of the possibilities, cuz there is another possibility that MLS create all this B teams and put them in USL/NASL league to play against this USL/NASL teams, kind like happen in Spain (Barcelona B plays in the second division, but being a B team, they can win the division but never be promoted. If one day Barcelona drop to the Division II in Spain, their B team go to the Division III).

Cheers man

[granemannrosa]

I have an honest question in that regard then. Does that mean that Acadamies have territorial rights to young players?

Let us say that Alberta isn't creating a lot of talented kids, but greater Toronto is. Does that mean they will be a dominant franchise empire for years to come? It seems fair in one hand, but completely unbalanced in the other.

I don't think so, but maybe MLS has some rules about that. In the rest of the world there is no territorial rights, but good "observers" (i don't know if that is the name of it, in portuguese is "olheiros") and a good staff that can find kids with talent around your region, country or even world, depends on how much the team wants to expand.

Lionel Messi was found in Argentina by a member of Barcelona staff and went to Spain when he was 12. Just a quick example to you understand.

Cheers

[closetboostie]

I have an honest question in that regard then. Does that mean that Acadamies have territorial rights to young players?

Let us say that Alberta isn't creating a lot of talented kids, but greater Toronto is. Does that mean they will be a dominant franchise empire for years to come? It seems fair in one hand, but completely unbalanced in the other.

i'm not the perfect guy to answer this question, but I know that players from the academies of TFC and the Whitecaps for example don't have to go through the draft and so the work these organizations go to and the money they spend does not go to waste. They see a benefit from having a stellar academy. For example, the 17 year old Henry played for TFC last night, and they don't have to worry about losing him to a draft. That would absolutely kill the progress made in player development in this country recently. I'm not sure what rights the players have though. I hope someone could enlighten me, because if there is no room on the senior roster for a promising player and he could go play somewhere else, is the academy forced to sell him? It's not fair for them to go for free but it's not fair to be in shackles either.

[foreverthursday]

I don't think so, but maybe MLS has some rules about that. In the rest of the world there is no territorial rights, but good "observers" (i don't know if that is the name of it, in portuguese is "olheiros") and a good staff that can find kids with talent around your region, country or even word, depends on how much the team wants to expand.

Lionel Messi was found in Argentina by a member of Barcelona staff and went to Spain when he was 12. Just a quick example to you understand.

Cheers

I had a beautiful thought of the academies (CSL) playing the USL teams as one league, and the NASL teams becoming MLS teams.

But moving on to your last post granemannrosa, So the teams in Brazil spend a fair bit on scouting players, and those players can go straight to that team or their b team once the paperwork is complete? No matter the age even?

[granemannrosa]

I had a beautiful thought of the academies (CSL) playing the USL teams as one league, and the NASL teams becoming MLS teams.

But moving on to your last post granemannrosa, So the teams in Brazil spend a fair bit on scouting players, and those players can go straight to that team or their b team once the paperwork is complete? No matter the age even?

No, not one bit at all. The only thing that you need to do is sign a professional contract with him. When a team does that, there is no turning back. Players down here are signing this type of contract in the ages of 15, 16 you know? Too many european teams come to "rob" our talent. In US and Canada things did not YET reached this point but maybe one day it's necessary.

What actually can happen is: CSL merge with PCSL (in the west) to create a strong Canadian league and you have all MLS, USL/NASL canadian teams having their academy teams playing in there (like what happen with TFC and Impact right now). In US, the MLS, NASL/USL teams put their academy teams in the PDL (which belongs to USL).

The next stage would have USL-2 (now the third tier in NA) become actually just USL with smaller teams plus the MLS, USL/NASL B teams playing with them in Division divided in regions to make the costs lower.

Than you have a NASL as a second division.

And MLS as a first division. Later on, maybe think about pro/rel.

[granemannrosa]

i'm not the perfect guy to answer this question, but I know that players from the academies of TFC and the Whitecaps for example don't have to go through the draft and so the work these organizations go to and the money they spend does not go to waste. They see a benefit from having a stellar academy. For example, the 17 year old Henry played for TFC last night, and they don't have to worry about losing him to a draft. That would absolutely kill the progress made in player development in this country recently. I'm not sure what rights the players have though. I hope someone could enlighten me, because if there is no room on the senior roster for a promising player and he could go play somewhere else, is the academy forced to sell him? It's not fair for them to go for free but it's not fair to be in shackles either.

MLS has the rooster limit at 24 players. When a player come from NCAA or PDL, which means he isn't a pro yet, he need to be drafted to a team. If this player is already playing pro in USL/NASL or around the world he need to sign or be "buy". I don't know how it works tih CIS (canadian college) and CSL, but there is people who know better.

Many people (even the teams) complain that College system is not the best way to develop players, so MLS is trying to help the teams with their academy system. This year, MLS created a new rule that I like to call Academy Rule. This rule says that a team can sign 2 players straight from the Academy, increasing the rooster to 26. This rule already existed before (Altidore was signed like that, he was in NYRB academy before move to the pro), but was a little different.

Maybe this Henry kid is part of this rule in TFC, but let remind you that the rules in Concacaf might be different than MLS, maybe allowing the teams to bring players up (of course, proving that they have contracts)

Cheers

[RS]

yeah as stated before i may have been wrong on some of my assumptions... so really, gen adidas is a national young talent scouting outfit outside of the ncaa? Is the north american talent pool really that lacking?

Basically, the idea of going to college and getting an education is so ingrained in North American culture that MLS needed to do something to entice young talent to either leave post-secondary school early to pursue a pro career or skip school altogether. MLS recognized that having kids stay in college/university until the age of 22 was bad for player development, but because of the economics of soccer here, getting the top talent to leave top notch schools where they were getting a free ride was not feasible as it is in the major N. American sports where starting salaries can be in the millions.

Generation adidas is their answer to that. Every year, the GenAd scouts identify the top, young North American talent (as long as they are not in the final year of post-secondary) and offer those players relatively large contracts (anywhere from $80,000 to $200,000+ depending on the player) to sign with MLS. If the player accepts, he goes into the MLS draft, and is salary cap exempt for until he "graduates" from the program (ie. plays a pre-determined amount of games with his club). If the player gets a career-ending injury while still GenAd, or if he doesn't "graduate" from the program for whatever reason, MLS will cover his tuition fees should he decide to attend post-secondary.

Also, as of this year, teams can now offer Generation adidas contracts to two players from their own academy without having that player go through the draft process, as long as the players have been with that team for two consecutive years. A team can only have two GenAd homegrown players on its roster at any given time, and would have to sign further homegrown players to senior minimum contracts.

I believe I have that all right.

[RS]

i'm not the perfect guy to answer this question, but I know that players from the academies of TFC and the Whitecaps for example don't have to go through the draft and so the work these organizations go to and the money they spend does not go to waste. They see a benefit from having a stellar academy. For example, the 17 year old Henry played for TFC last night, and they don't have to worry about losing him to a draft. That would absolutely kill the progress made in player development in this country recently. I'm not sure what rights the players have though. I hope someone could enlighten me, because if there is no room on the senior roster for a promising player and he could go play somewhere else, is the academy forced to sell him? It's not fair for them to go for free but it's not fair to be in shackles either.

MLS teams have two extra roster spots dedicated solely to homegrown players. So while the "maximum" roster is 24, teams can actually have 26 players if they sign two of their own homegrown players.

They can actually sign more of their own academy players if they wanted to (as I detailed in my post above this one), but anything over two would count against the "regular" roster.

EDIT: Didn't read the whole thread before responding, so I didn't notice that the dude above me had already answered.

[granemannrosa]

Basically, the idea of going to college and getting an education is so ingrained in North American culture that MLS needed to do something to entice young talent to either leave post-secondary school early to pursue a pro career or skip school altogether. MLS recognized that having kids stay in college/university until the age of 22 was bad for player development, but because of the economics of soccer here, getting the top talent to leave top notch schools where they were getting a free ride was not feasible as it is in the major N. American sports where starting salaries can be in the millions.

Generation adidas is their answer to that. Every year, the GenAd scouts identify the top, young North American talent (as long as they are not in the final year of post-secondary) and offer those players relatively large contracts (anywhere from $80,000 to $200,000+ depending on the player) to sign with MLS. If the player accepts, he goes into the MLS draft, and is salary cap exempt for until he "graduates" from the program (ie. plays a pre-determined amount of games with his club). If the player gets a career-ending injury while still GenAd, or if he doesn't "graduate" from the program for whatever reason, MLS will cover his tuition fees should he decide to attend post-secondary.

Also, as of this year, teams can now offer Generation adidas contracts to two players from their own academy without having that player go through the draft process, as long as the players have been with that team for two consecutive years. A team can only have two GenAd homegrown players on its roster at any given time, and would have to sign further homegrown players to senior minimum contracts.

I believe I have that all right.

So the 2 players coming from Academy are Gen Adidas players? Wow, I did not know that, but makes way more sense to me, cuz I could not figure it out how would they "graduate" from that academy contract, allowing teams to sign new kids.

Rudi, is this kid Henry a Gen Adidas for TFC?

Cheers

[RS]

So the 2 players coming from Academy are Gen Adidas players? Wow, I did not know that, but makes way more sense to me, cuz I could not figure it out how would they "graduate" from that academy contract, allowing teams to sign new kids.

Rudi, is this kid Henry a Gen Adidas for TFC?

Cheers

No, I don't think Henry is signed to a pro contract of any kind just yet, although I'm hearing that he's not far off.

Basically, TFC used a loophole to allow Henry, Stinson, Matheson and others to play professional games with the first team. All are still technically amateurs, and are so to protect their (and their teammates') NCAA eligibility.

The NCAA used to not allow anyone who has either played professionally or even played on the same team as professionals to participate in their leagues, so everyone on TFC Academy is on amateur contracts. They've always been allowed to train with pros and play against them in their league, but if one, single player on TFC Academy was paid a dime for playing, it would invalidate the NCAA eligibility of him and all of his teammates instantly. Also, if one, single player played on a team with a player that had a pro (current or past), he would invalidate himself and could no longer play with the Academy as he would then invalidate the rest of his team. (Obviously, not all of these kids are going to be MLS players, so keeping their NCAA eligibility intact while getting quality training is a big draw of TFC Academy.)

The rule changed a couple of months back, and now players are allowed to play alongside professionals in real matches without losing their NCAA eligibility, as long as the players can prove that they were not paid. Thisis how the TFC Academy kids played in the Voyageurs Cup game and how Henry played last night in the CCL, he's still technically on an amateur contract with TFC, but he won't affect the NCAA eligibility of his Academy teammates by playing official games with the first team.

Henry et al cannot play any MLS matches without signing a contract with the league however, which is why they've only played in non-MLS matches thus far. I suspect at least Henry will be offered a pro contract for the 2011 season, and perhaps Nicholas Lindsay as well. Whether that'll be Gen adidas or not remains to be seen, but the option is there.

[strobe_z]

All the blustering about hockey vs. soccer systems aside...

I think what is necessary is a blended sort of model. On the hockey side, all the pro leagues operate independently of each other, but have team agreements to transfer players. Many NHL teams also own teams in other leagues (which makes it easier to move players up and down), but not all players in the AHL have NHL contracts or affiliations. Also, sometimes lower division teams can have agreements with more than one NHL club (I remember the Oilers and the Canadiens sharing a team a while back...). The soccer equivalent of this is the reserve squads and loaning players out to other clubs to give them more playing time.

While I don't think the farm team system will work for soccer (at least not at this point), loaning players between first and second divisions would be extremely feasible I would suspect. The thing to keep in mind about loaning players though... I believe it's usually for a season. I don't think you can recall a player on loan if someone at the big club gets hurt (I always thought that was horribly unfair to lower division teams... you'd be right in the middle of a good stretch and then lose key players because someone in the NHL sprained an ankle).

I also don't think anyone should be holding their breath for promotion/relegation. There's a reason teams in NA are called franchises and not clubs... Imagine if the local KFC restaurant had a bad quarter and was relegated to becoming a "Clucky Chicken Joint" instead. NA sporting culture has no real tie between the team and the community... if the Oilers had been relegated this season and were playing in the AHL this year... well just imagine how that'd be received. In a "league first" system like MLS... no way that's going to happen. That's why I think the MLS would be silly not to work with the NASL/USL once the dust settles. With no promotion/relegation system and the "sweet spot" of a 20 team league in place... the only option is to develop the second division. It's hard to be the top of the pyramid when there's no pyramid beneath you.

[Richard]

I will mail you some tear free baby shampoo so you can read more clearly.

You just don't get it do you, so I will no longer bother with this debate.