since I do not know these things yet.

[foreverthursday]

Why have the NASL and the USL not merged with the MLS? Then after that they could have official tiers. How hockey has the NHL, AHL, then ECHL.

I have been reading a lot about soccer since joining these forums, but this still flies over my head.

[Richard]

Short answer, politics. I am certainly no hockey afficianado but I don't believe the NHL, AHL and CHL are part of a single organisation which is what you imply with the word 'merge', they are all quite separate entities that co-exist.

[strobe_z]

The better question would be why don't the USL and NASL merge...

NASL is basically made up of the owners that broke away from the USL over a difference of opinion in how the league was being run. They tried to compete directly against the USL, but neither side had enough clout to win the "official sanction" as the USA/Canada second division. So the USSF (I don't believe the CSA was a part of this) basically told the NASL and USL to play nice for a year. I expect we'll see some fireworks in the off season. Part of the problem seems to be that the break away owners were more or less lead by those planning on jumping to the MLS anyway. I'm not sure where that leaves the NASL, although formal applications from Hamilton and Ottawa are definitely a plus. Personally I'd like to see USL stick to division 3 and lower (i.e. semi-pro development leagues... which is what they're good at anyway). I'd like to see NASL take over the 2nd division spot and then broker some kind of deal with MLS (maybe MLS2) to develop the second division. I think this is especially a good idea since the MLS seems just about set on a 2nd NY team (Cosmos resurrected) which would bring them to the "magic number" of 20 teams and would basically seal up the first division. If that's the case, the second division could benefit from the MLS brand and the MLS would be able to develop that brand into secondary markets without diluting their primary product (i.e. first division ball).

So simple, they should just call me.

[foreverthursday]

Short answer, politics. I am certainly no hockey afficianado but I don't believe the NHL, AHL and CHL are part of a single organisation which is what you imply with the word 'merge', they are all quite separate entities that co-exist.

Hmmm

You do not understand hockey at all.

The NHL is a league of its own, but it has two lower tiers that are leagues of their own. Each NHL team has an AHL team and an ECHL team. The AHL is the highest you can go in North America without playing in the NHL, and the ECHL is great for guys that want to someday still have a shot at the NHL and get payed to play hockey.

They are all pro leagues, but they are united by teams.

Let us pretend you have a player on your NHL team St. Louis Blues who isn't providing much to the team. You put that player on waivers and push him down to your AHL or ECHL teams, if it is your AHL team then he would go to the Peoria Rivermen. Now at any time you want, anytime, you can call up one of your AHL or ECHL players. All different leagues, but in your St. Louis Blues organization. You own and contract all the players on the Blues, the Peoria Riverman, and the Anchorage (Alaska) Aces.

Do you follow?

Moving on to soccer.

There are three leagues all pro that aren't united by any structure, or so it seems to me. What I don't like about that is we have fan's money going to too many different directions instead of one solid entity. We all agree North American soccer can become far more than it is financially and in popularity. What we are doing with pro soccer in North America is the same thing the different liberal parties in Canada are doing to each other. Stealing money and people from each other and losing elections, when left voting people as a whole far outnumber the conservative voters.

Let us pretend that the Toronto FC have a Tier II team that is in it's own Tier II pro league, and underneath that is a bigger version of the CSL. So the Toronto FC Acadamy has players that can graduate up to the Tier II team at anypoint, and injured or waivered Toronto FC players could be placed into the Tier II team, and have replacements brought up from either the Acadamy or the Tier II team.

Three different leagues. All one system. I almost compared it to the Godhead, but that seemed to be a stretch even for an a$$hat like me.

I had to retype this whole freaking thing because it logged me out while I was typing it the first time, and when I relogged in I had lost everything. I even made some better arguments and explenations in it to, but I am inherently lazy.

[foreverthursday]

The better question would be why don't the USL and NASL merge...

NASL is basically made up of the owners that broke away from the USL over a difference of opinion in how the league was being run. They tried to compete directly against the USL, but neither side had enough clout to win the "official sanction" as the USA/Canada second division. So the USSF (I don't believe the CSA was a part of this) basically told the NASL and USL to play nice for a year. I expect we'll see some fireworks in the off season. Part of the problem seems to be that the break away owners were more or less lead by those planning on jumping to the MLS anyway. I'm not sure where that leaves the NASL, although formal applications from Hamilton and Ottawa are definitely a plus. Personally I'd like to see USL stick to division 3 and lower (i.e. semi-pro development leagues... which is what they're good at anyway). I'd like to see NASL take over the 2nd division spot and then broker some kind of deal with MLS (maybe MLS2) to develop the second division. I think this is especially a good idea since the MLS seems just about set on a 2nd NY team (Cosmos resurrected) which would bring them to the "magic number" of 20 teams and would basically seal up the first division. If that's the case, the second division could benefit from the MLS brand and the MLS would be able to develop that brand into secondary markets without diluting their primary product (i.e. first division ball).

So simple, they should just call me.

OMG We think in the same manner. You explained to me EXACTLY what I was asking. EXACTLY! August 11 you sir are getting a big sloppy kiss. Oh wait, you are copping out for work. No kiss for you.

[foreverthursday]

Short answer, politics. I am certainly no hockey afficianado but I don't believe the NHL, AHL and CHL are part of a single organisation which is what you imply with the word 'merge', they are all quite separate entities that co-exist.

Oh yeah the CHL isn't pro at all. The CHL is an umbrella in which all the major junior leagues in Canada sit under. The CHL is far more affiliated with youth hockey and College hockey. In the CHL you have the WHL, the OHL, and the QMJHL. In a way it is one league, but it is just too big. Way too big. So they have a national championship yearly. Think of CONCACAF. Good. You will make a fine jedi.

[StartingEleven]

Oh yeah the CHL isn't pro at all. The CHL is an umbrella in which all the major junior leagues in Canada sit under. The CHL is far more affiliated with youth hockey and College hockey. In the CHL you have the WHL, the OHL, and the QMJHL. In a way it is one league, but it is just too big. Way too big. So they have a national championship yearly. Think of CONCACAF. Good. You will make a fine jedi.

It's interesting you mention the CHL, if I'm not mistaken the MLS is very much tied into and commited to Generation adidas, and college players, which would be the North American Soccer equivalent of the CHL, and that's where I think the problem with academies comes into play. In Hockey you would not need to get a scolarship or attend University to play Pro Hockey, although Junior players usually will come up from the affiliates.

What the MLS should do is what North American Hockey does, draft from Colleges, Universities, and Generation Adidas, have them play and further develop in the USL-NASL (USSF-D2) and then pluck players from your team affiliate franchise, now I ask myself... why haven't they done this?? I definitely missing something. Oh Yeah, the sports isn't popular enough to sustain this model yet.

The MLS does not want to render its NFL-NCAA model useless... Am close on this one?

[foreverthursday]

It's interesting you mention the CHL, if I'm not mistaken the MLS is very much tied into and commited to Generation adidas, and college players, which would be the North American Soccer equivalent of the CHL, and that's where I think the problem with academies comes into play. In Hockey you would not need to get a scolarship or attend University to play Pro Hockey, although Junior players usually will come up from the affiliates.

What the MLS should do is what North American Hockey does, draft from Colleges, Universities, and Generation Adidas, have them play and further develop in the USL-NASL (USSF-D2) and then pluck players from your team affiliate franchise, now I ask myself... why haven't they done this?? I definitely missing something. Oh Yeah, the sports isn't popular enough to sustain this model yet.

The MLS does not want to render its NFL-NCAA model useless... Am close on this one?

What you said makes sense, but what it is is lunacy. What would make perfect sense is to draft from the non pro leagues, CSL, CSA, and the CIS are perfect examples. Then move them into lower tiered pro leagues that directly affiliated with th MLS.

This would also utalize players from north america. I know that I am not well versed with soccer still, and the only soccer I played was boys and girls club in Eagle River, Alaska. I don't think it even had tiers, and I was there until maybe the age of eleven. So when you guys mumble on about the alberta soccer association fiasco, I rely on websites and google searches. So not understanding why pro north american teams are splitting up the few paying soccer fans so every league struggles baffles me. completely.

[Richard]

Hmmm

You do not understand hockey at all.

I don't believe you contradicted anything that I said with your post. What was so incorrect in what I posted that led you to declare that I do not understand hockey at all?

[foreverthursday]

but I don't believe the NHL, AHL and CHL are part of a single organisation which is what you imply with the word 'merge', they are all quite separate entities that co-exist.

*laughs* well for starters you added the CHL all on your own when I had mentioned the ECHL. Secondly, the NHL, AHL, and the ECHL already are one merged entity. Three different leagues, but one happy family. They don't co-exist like neighbors with separate lives and careers like you implied, but they are one thing in different tiers. So by your own wording you might have as well shot yourself in the foot with your hockey knowledge. Don't have wrinkled feathers old man KFC, Just answer the question I asked at first.

So does anyone see a better working relationship with the staggering amount of independent soccer organizations in north america, or will it look like a bunch of poorly funded leagues trying to struggle on their own for years and years to come instead of playing nice and succeeding?

[StartingEleven]

What you said makes sense, but what it is is lunacy. What would make perfect sense is to draft from the non pro leagues, CSL, CSA, and the CIS are perfect examples. Then move them into lower tiered pro leagues that directly affiliated with th MLS.

This would also utalize players from north america. I know that I am not well versed with soccer still, and the only soccer I played was boys and girls club in Eagle River, Alaska. I don't think it even had tiers, and I was there until maybe the age of eleven. So when you guys mumble on about the alberta soccer association fiasco, I rely on websites and google searches. So not understanding why pro north american teams are splitting up the few paying soccer fans so every league struggles baffles me. completely.

I totally agree, they should pluck players from wherever they want, especially home grown talent. I was just saying that the MLS itself has invested tonnes in this Generation Adidas BS that they will never let it drop and they will continue to tout it as the premier place to shop fro talent. It is a pretty defeatist system as it stands now.

[paul-collins]

You might forgive the left coaster for not recognizing the East Coast Hockey League.

[Trident]

Hmmm

You do not understand hockey at all.

The NHL is a league of its own, but it has two lower tiers that are leagues of their own. Each NHL team has an AHL team and an ECHL team. The AHL is the highest you can go in North America without playing in the NHL, and the ECHL is great for guys that want to someday still have a shot at the NHL and get payed to play hockey.

They are all pro leagues, but they are united by teams.

Let us pretend you have a player on your NHL team St. Louis Blues who isn't providing much to the team. You put that player on waivers and push him down to your AHL or ECHL teams, if it is your AHL team then he would go to the Peoria Rivermen. Now at any time you want, anytime, you can call up one of your AHL or ECHL players. All different leagues, but in your St. Louis Blues organization. You own and contract all the players on the Blues, the Peoria Riverman, and the Anchorage (Alaska) Aces.

Do you follow?

Moving on to soccer.

There are three leagues all pro that aren't united by any structure, or so it seems to me. What I don't like about that is we have fan's money going to too many different directions instead of one solid entity. We all agree North American soccer can become far more than it is financially and in popularity. What we are doing with pro soccer in North America is the same thing the different liberal parties in Canada are doing to each other. Stealing money and people from each other and losing elections, when left voting people as a whole far outnumber the conservative voters.

Let us pretend that the Toronto FC have a Tier II team that is in it's own Tier II pro league, and underneath that is a bigger version of the CSL. So the Toronto FC Acadamy has players that can graduate up to the Tier II team at anypoint, and injured or waivered Toronto FC players could be placed into the Tier II team, and have replacements brought up from either the Acadamy or the Tier II team.

Three different leagues. All one system. I almost compared it to the Godhead, but that seemed to be a stretch even for an a$$hat like me.

I had to retype this whole freaking thing because it logged me out while I was typing it the first time, and when I relogged in I had lost everything. I even made some better arguments and explenations in it to, but I am inherently lazy.

Read more. He said they were organizations that coexisted. You responde "YOU KNOW NOTHING!" and then go in depth explaining how they are all different organisations that coexist.

You want farm teams or something? Because that is NOT soccer. I cant get through your huge rambling and often shifting points.

[foreverthursday]

God trident, from the moment I got in this board you have acted like a trolling pussy. Good job on getting caught up on the word co-existance.

2. To live in peace with another or others despite differences, especially as a matter of policy: "recognize and accept, as every President in the nuclear age has, that this means coexisting with the Soviet Union" (McGeorge Bundy).

Now I believe I explained clearly that it wasn't coexistence at all, because they are not different things living in harmony.

Good job you imbecile. I knew you would post on here. I even thought; "I bet that pussy is going to whine on this post." Because you can't read all the way to the end I explained it once more to old man KFC. And now I get to explain it to you. I wish I had a chalkboard or handpuppets trident, but it would be pointless with you taking too many breaks to change your tampon. You are the single most bigoted arse on these forums. Go delete your account.

foreverthursday

Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post

but I don't believe the NHL, AHL and CHL are part of a single organisation which is what you imply with the word 'merge', they are all quite separate entities that co-exist.

*laughs* well for starters you added the CHL all on your own when I had mentioned the ECHL. Secondly, the NHL, AHL, and the ECHL already are one merged entity. Three different leagues, but one happy family. They don't co-exist like neighbors with separate lives and careers like you implied, but they are one thing in different tiers. So by your own wording you might have as well shot yourself in the foot with your hockey knowledge. Don't have wrinkled feathers old man KFC, Just answer the question I asked at first.

So does anyone see a better working relationship with the staggering amount of independent soccer organizations in north america, or will it look like a bunch of poorly funded leagues trying to struggle on their own for years and years to come instead of playing nice and succeeding?

[paul-collins]

You want farm teams or something? Because that is NOT soccer.

Why not? (he asks innocently )

[foreverthursday]

Why not? (he asks innocently )

because some elitist c^nt said so.

[foreverthursday]

Read more. He said they were organizations that coexisted. You responde "YOU KNOW NOTHING!" and then go in depth explaining how they are all different organisations that coexist.

You want farm teams or something? Because that is NOT soccer. I cant get through your huge rambling and often shifting points.

I didn't say he knows nothing, but he has better reading comprehension skills then you do.

So what is soccer oh mighty trident is it pure as it goes bankrupt? Can it never evolve or change with the time in it's pure 147 years. Is it too pure to have new people to the sport asking questions that make sense to them?

Tell us trident what is soccer? I want to sit at your feet or on your lap and stare up into your sage eyes as you tell little me about the mighty soccer and how you think everything should be. As I fall asleep to your droning whine, you can hold me close to your breasts as you rock me back and forth so I may dream of a few people loving a sport important to culture as it crashes and burns with a chapter 11.

[RS]

I totally agree, they should pluck players from wherever they want, especially home grown talent. I was just saying that the MLS itself has invested tonnes in this Generation Adidas BS that they will never let it drop and they will continue to tout it as the premier place to shop fro talent. It is a pretty defeatist system as it stands now.

Generation adidas is designed to lure top young talent away from the NCAA and into MLS, including home grown players from the academies. I get the impression from your posts that you believe Gen. adidas to be something else.

[Richard]

*laughs* well for starters you added the CHL all on your own when I had mentioned the ECHL. Secondly, the NHL, AHL, and the ECHL already are one merged entity. Three different leagues, but one happy family. They don't co-exist like neighbors with separate lives and careers like you implied, but they are one thing in different tiers. So by your own wording you might have as well shot yourself in the foot with your hockey knowledge. Don't have wrinkled feathers old man KFC, Just answer the question I asked at first.

So does anyone see a better working relationship with the staggering amount of independent soccer organizations in north america, or will it look like a bunch of poorly funded leagues trying to struggle on their own for years and years to come instead of playing nice and succeeding?

There is absolutely no reference to any legal or corporate relationship between the NHL, the AHL or the ECHL on any of their websites and there is nothing else on the web that I could find that suggests they are one merged legal entity so I stand by my original assertion that the three leagues are independent, each ruled by its own commissioner and board of governors. The fact that they share some of the same rules, have inter-league individual team affiliations and trade players is irrelevant when it comes to them being independent of each other. MLS, NASL and USL teams trade players too but the leagues are not related organisations from a corporate standpoint. You have yet to present evidence that the NHL, AHL and ECHL are all part of one organisation other than your own declaration with which I took issue.

[foreverthursday]

There is absolutely no reference to any legal or corporate relationship between the NHL, the AHL or the ECHL on any of their websites and there is nothing else on the web that I could find that suggests same so I stand by my original assertion that the three leagues are independent legal entities, each ruled by its own commissioner and board of governors. The fact that they share some of the same rules, have inter-league individual team affiliations and trade players is irrelevant when it comes to them being independent of each other. MLS, NASL and USL teams trade players too but the leagues are not related organisations from a corporate standpoint. You have yet to present evidence that they are all part of one organisation other than your own declaration with which I took issue.

Jesus, you are moron. I can't believe you are still on this. THREE DIFFERENT LEAGUES JOINED BY CLUBS! You can call them farm teams if you want. I know you are old and functionally retarded, but christ dude. christ. At least you aren't a whiney prick like trident. Last time I explain this. Now grab your face and roll on the grass because I insulted you.

Here is a list of the AHL teams and the NHL teams that are tied to them.

Eastern Conference

Atlantic Division

Hartford Wolf Pack (NYR)

Lowell Devils (NJ)

Manchester Monarchs (LA)

Portland Pirates (ANA)

Providence Bruins (BOS)

Springfield Falcons (EDM)

Worcester Sharks (SJ)

East Division

Albany River Rats (CAR)

Binghamton Senators (OTT)

Bridgeport Sound Tigers (NYI)

Hershey Bears (WSH)

Norfolk Admirals (TB)

Philadelphia Phantoms (PHI)

Wilkes-Barre/Scranton Penguins (PIT)

Western Conference

North Division

Grand Rapids Griffins (DET)

Hamilton Bulldogs (MTL)

Lake Erie Monsters (COL)

Manitoba Moose (VAN)

Rochester Americans (BUF/FLA)

Syracuse Crunch (CBJ)

Toronto Marlies (TOR)

West Division

Chicago Wolves (ATL)

Houston Aeros (MIN)

Iowa Stars (DAL)

Milwaukee Admirals (NSH)

Peoria Rivermen (STL)

Quad City Flames (CGY)

Rockford IceHogs (CHI)

San Antonio Rampage (PHX)

[foreverthursday]

There is absolutely no reference to any legal or corporate relationship between the NHL, the AHL or the ECHL on any of their websites and there is nothing else on the web that I could find that suggests they are one merged legal entity so I stand by my original assertion that the three leagues are independent, each ruled by its own commissioner and board of governors. The fact that they share some of the same rules, have inter-league individual team affiliations and trade players is irrelevant when it comes to them being independent of each other. MLS, NASL and USL teams trade players too but the leagues are not related organisations from a corporate standpoint. You have yet to present evidence that the NHL, AHL and ECHL are all part of one organisation other than your own declaration with which I took issue.

One organization owns the players. So they can only play for that team and it's AHL and ECHL affiliated farm teams. An AHL team doesn't trade a player to it's NHL team, the NHL team takes the player on a whim because they own that player. They can send them to any of the three leagues within their affiliates. No trading involved, and no stacks of paperwork. That means at any given point an NHL team has close to a hundred players that can play at any time at their disposal. If they draft a kid, but thinks he still needs a couple years before playing NHL hockey then most likely he plays for their AHL team, and if he can't make it there then chances are he shuffles down to the ECHL.

So I went to the nhl website and scrolled down to affiliate sites, and I clicked on the AHL. Do you know the first thing I see?

This:

The Ottawa Senators, parent club of the AHL's Binghamton Senators, announced today the club has signed defenseman David Hale and forward Francis Lessard to one-year, two-way contracts.

Hale, 29, skated in 39 games for the Tampa Bay Lightning in 2009-10, recording four assists and 25 penalty minutes. He also appeared in four contests for the Lightning's American Hockey League affiliate, the Norfolk Admirals, scoring once and adding an assist.

Originally drafted by the New Jersey Devils with their first pick (22nd overall) in the 2000 NHL Entry Draft, Hale has played 302 NHL games with New Jersey, the Calgary Flames, Phoenix Coyotes and Tampa Bay, registering 24 points (three goals, 21 assists) while accumulating 236 penalty minutes. He has recorded two points (two assists) in 17 NHL post-season games.

The 6-1, 215-pound native of Colorado Springs, Colo., has played seven professional seasons. In addition to his NHL tenure, he has skated in 66 AHL contests with the Albany River Rats, Lowell Devils and Norfolk, recording five goals, 10 assists and 103 penalty minutes.

Lessard, 31, spent the 2009-10 season with the Phoenix Coyotes' American Hockey League affiliate, the San Antonio Rampage, recording two goals and two assists while accumulating 289 penalty minutes in 61 games.

Originally drafted by the Carolina Hurricanes with their third pick (80th overall) in the 1997 NHL Entry Draft, Lessard was traded by the Hurricanes to the Philadelphia Flyers on May 25, 1999, before being sent to the Atlanta Thrashers on March 15, 2002.

The 6-3, 224-pound native of Montreal made his NHL debut with the Thrashers on March 27, 2002, and has played 91 career NHL contests, all with Atlanta, registering one goal, three assists and 268 penalty minutes.

Lessard, who will enter his 11th professional season, has skated in 487 AHL games with the Philadelphia Phantoms, Chicago Wolves, Hartford Wolf Pack and San Antonio, recording 65 points (24 goals, 41 assists) and 2,357 penalty minutes, which ranks sixth on the AHL’s all-time list.

I will mail you some tear free baby shampoo so you can read more clearly.

[StartingEleven]

Generation adidas is designed to lure top young talent away from the NCAA and into MLS, including home grown players from the academies. I get the impression from your posts that you believe Gen. adidas to be something else.

yeah as stated before i may have been wrong on some of my assumptions... so really, gen adidas is a national young talent scouting outfit outside of the ncaa? Is the north american talent pool really that lacking?

[yomurphy1]

Richard is right

The NHL, AHL, and ECHL are in no means "tied" together. The association between independent clubs and teams is totally voluntary and often AHL & ECHL teams have players that are not part of an NHL organization. However, some clubs are tied together by the fact that they have the same parent organization eg. Toronto Maple Leafs & Marlies under MLSE.

[foreverthursday]

Richard is right

The NHL, AHL, and ECHL are in no means "tied" together. The association between independent clubs and teams is totally voluntary and often AHL & ECHL teams have players that are not part of an NHL organization. However, some clubs are tied together by the fact that they have the same parent organization eg. Toronto Maple Leafs & Marlies under MLSE.

Funny because on their site (AHL.COM) they mention phrases like their parent club, and their NHL affiliate. Here is another little news clip from yesterday on the site:

Islanders sign Sim to two-way deal

August 3, 2010

The New York Islanders, parent club of the AHL's Bridgeport Sound Tigers, have agreed to terms on a one-year, two-way (NHL/AHL) contract with Jon Sim.

The two way means either team can trade him in their respective leagues. But I must be mistaken. Really.

[granemannrosa]

I am glad that we all calm down and had a good discussion. =D

I could understand what you said, but unfortunetly I never really searched about hockey system (and I consider myself a Buffalo Sabres Fan hahahaha, oh well). From the point that I know about sports in North America, the AHL works in the same way as the baseball AAA League (and the entire system) and like the D-League in NBA right? One or more teams own this farm teams, and send the young/unused players to keep playing there, right?

If is that what you saying, then I will tell you that I don't think this will happen between MLS and NASL/USL, cuz in soccer, different from others sports, we are used to many division as we can hold. Here in Brazil there is 4 divisions (from A to D). When I team finish in the first four spots in Série D, next year the play in Série C, and keeps going. It's like soccer fans over there call promotion/relegation. Thats what (kind) is happening in North America, except there is no pro/rel yet.

In the past MLS and USL(now with many teams in NASL) used to "compete" to be considered the best league in US and Canada (USL never had really chance), but from last year, MLS is standing as Division I, with the new Division II League with teams from USL and NASL.

I don't know if you heard, but MLS used to have a Reserve League, which is basically the same thing as a Farm League, except the fact that the teams are called B teams and play in the same stadium as the first team. MLS, USL and NASL are talking about bringing this league back, having B teams from MLS, NASL and USL.

Did I make myself clear?

Cheers brother!