Vic Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 http://goal.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/spain-the-new-brazil/index.html?ref=soccer "They are cocky, the Spanish, and interested in sexy things. Their team plays sexy soccer... that’s what beauty does -– it breaks hearts. And the beautiful game has moved from Brazil to Spain." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Vic http://goal.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/spain-the-new-brazil/index.html?ref=soccer "They are cocky, the Spanish, and interested in sexy things. Their team plays sexy soccer... that’s what beauty does -– it breaks hearts. And the beautiful game has moved from Brazil to Spain." I know Spain pretty well, and it is definitely not sexy. It is not the new Brazil. It has no samba, it is not even that cocky. Not sexy at all, no cute legs, no tall dark swarthy glares, instead a lot of pimply faces, young fellows who look like nice kids, short guys (2nd shortest side at Euro 2008), not too many media stars (Iniesta, whose goal was brilliant, absolutely masterful, is not even on the list for Golden Ball, when he is amongst the dozen most skilled players around: after all he retired Ronaldinho from Barça). So the writer got the angle wrong. The Belgium match was superb from both sides, it was great to see Belgium back where it used to be, and the match was played at a very high level all over the pitch. Belgium was a real match, probably the toughest Spain has faced since the Italy quarter final. A great match won in classy fashion, as Spain pushed for the win when a draw would have been fine. So not sexy, but something else. Spain is great to watch because there is ball talent, excellent passing, fine off the ball movement, quickness, there is playmaking as if you were watching quality basketball, creativity. And especially the talent and intelligence in the midfield, with Xavi and Cesc threading the passes through backed by Senna and Xabi Alonso behind them, and Iniesta if he cares to join in (lately he plays attacking left). An error in the article: Casillas broke the Spanish national team record for most minutes without giving a goal, but shares the record with Reina, who had 90 m. in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. I know Spain pretty well, and it is definitely not sexy. It is not the new Brazil. It has no samba, it is not even that cocky. Not sexy at all, no cute legs, no tall dark swarthy glares, instead a lot of pimply faces, young fellows who look like nice kids, short guys (2nd shortest side at Euro 2008), not too many media stars (Iniesta, whose goal was brilliant, absolutely masterful, is not even on the list for Golden Ball, when he is amongst the dozen most skilled players around: after all he retired Ronaldinho from Barça). So the writer got the angle wrong. The writer wasn't saying that the players looked sexy (physically). He was talking about their style of play. Afterall, Brasil usually has some of the ugliest players if you're talking about physical appearance. If the Spanish players are not confident, I'd be very surprised. How can they not be cocky? As I said before, its been at least 10 years since a single nation was so far beyond any other NT in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Before we start claiming any sort of world dominance for Spain they should at least win the World Cup. They had a good Euro but it is still only a regional tournament and winning it does not make you a world power. In the last World Cup Spain did not make it out of the round of 16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly Before we start claiming any sort of world dominance for Spain they should at least win the World Cup. They had a good Euro but it is still only a regional tournament and winning it does not make you a world power. In the last World Cup Spain did not make it out of the round of 16. The Euros are a regional tournament but really (and unfortunately) apart from Argentina and Brasil (both of whom are struggling) nobody else outside UEFA is relevant in the debate about who is #1 and by how much. [8)] But of course it would be foolish to think that the best team always wins the World Cup. So Spain probably won't win the World Cup even if they are still the best two years from now. I'm just saying they are the best by far right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmcmurph Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly Before we start claiming any sort of world dominance for Spain they should at least win the World Cup. They had a good Euro but it is still only a regional tournament and winning it does not make you a world power. In the last World Cup Spain did not make it out of the round of 16. It has been said by more than 1 Euro coach that winning the Euro is harder than winning the World Cup. It was definately the soccer highlight of the year for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 The difference between the Eurocup and the World Cup was that in the former the clearly best team won, and playing well, beautifully at times, and in the second case there was a lot of debate and disagreement, and the best player was a defender. The Eurocup was a quality tournament with fine performances from surprises like Turkey, Russia, and the World Cup had hardly any such moments, it was a poor tournament, played at a level lower than the UEFA Cup. That said, of course Spain should show the class to take it up a step and win a World Cup, or at least get close (as it is a competition after all), like Holland in the 70s or Hungary in the 50s, both deserving of being considered amongst the great sides of each respective decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCF08 Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S The Belgium match was superb from both sides, it was great to see Belgium back where it used to be It could well be that Belgium is going to be the new Brazil. They've got some wonderful young talents. If they only had a proper goalscorer and a more attacking minded coach.. The defence is almost unbreakable with Simons , Kompany and Vermaelen. If the players keep progressing as they are now then they will make the QF of the World Cup 100% (If they qualify). And this will be the star man...Moussa Dembele (Playing for AZ in Holland) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoLg-Uzio8o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 quote:Originally posted by SCF08 It could well be that Belgium is going to be the new Brazil. They've got some wonderful young talents. If they only had a proper goalscorer and a more attacking minded coach.. The defence is almost unbreakable with Simons , Kompany and Vermaelen. If the players keep progressing as they are now then they will make the QF of the World Cup 100% (If they qualify). And this will be the star man...Moussa Dembele (Playing for AZ in Holland) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoLg-Uzio8o Fellaini impressed me vs. Spain, pushing up more into an attacking position. I only saw him for Everton last weekend, caught the last half, and he seemed to be in a more destructive role. I think with the Olympic semi final they are going to gain in confidence, but they are still not assured of making the World Cup in a group with Spain and Turkey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 quote:Originally posted by SCF08 It could well be that Belgium is going to be the new Brazil. LOL Lets at least wait until they're as good as Poland. [:I] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCF08 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 quote:Originally posted by amacpher LOL Lets at least wait until they're as good as Poland. [:I] You apparantly dont know your football. Belgium have a wonderful young batch coming up and most of them guys are just beginning to mature. Quite a few have played in their recent games but still there is lots and lots more to come from them. They've had their most important game of the campaign already against Turkey away and should have won. They got a weak penalty against late in the game to get a 1-1 score but also should have finished it earlier. They are in a great position to qualify. 1 point behind 2nd place Turkey and Turkey havent played Spain yet and drew away to Estonia. 06/09/08 20:45 Liege Belgium 3:2 (1:0) Estonia 10/09/08 21:00 Istanbul Turkey 1:1 (0:1) Belgium 11/10/08 20:45 Brussels Belgium 2:0 (2:0) Armenia 15/10/08 20:45 Brussels Belgium 1:2 (1:1) Spain Vincent Kompany (Man City) , Marouane Fellaini (Everton) , Thomas Vermaelen and Jan Vertonghen (Ajax) , Moussa Dembele (AZ) and Anthony van den Borre (Genoa) are already regulars and top players. You might not know them but the following players are going to be there soon as well and are top talents. Maarten Martens , Sebastien Pocongoli (AZ) , Sepp de Roover (FC Groningen) , Axel Witsel (Standard Luik) , Stijn Wuytens (PSV) , Kenny Steppe (SC Heerenveen) , Tom de Mul (Sevilla) and Kevin Mirallas (St Etienne) This is going to be one hell of a team my man ! The belgians finally are going to have a team again that can challege us Dutchies. They may be going to better as well with their defensive talents....we have only got 1 in Dirk Marcellis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 quote:Originally posted by tmcmurph It has been said by more than 1 Euro coach that winning the Euro is harder than winning the World Cup. It was definately the soccer highlight of the year for me. It has also been said by many Americans that winning their country's championship makes them world champions. Making such ignorant and arrogant statements doesn't make it true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. The difference between the Eurocup and the World Cup was that in the former the clearly best team won, and playing well, beautifully at times, and in the second case there was a lot of debate and disagreement, and the best player was a defender. The Eurocup was a quality tournament with fine performances from surprises like Turkey, Russia, and the World Cup had hardly any such moments, it was a poor tournament, played at a level lower than the UEFA Cup. That said, of course Spain should show the class to take it up a step and win a World Cup, or at least get close (as it is a competition after all), like Holland in the 70s or Hungary in the 50s, both deserving of being considered amongst the great sides of each respective decade. One can find numerous examples of lower level competitions that have more competitive and exciting finals than higher level competitions but it still doesn't make them higher level. I agree that the last Euro (unlike the terrible previous Euro) was more exciting and had a better playing style than the last World Cup but that still doesn't make it a higher level competition than the former. If the Euro is such a high level competition, why was the worst team in the last World Cup from Europe? The Holland and Hungarian teams you mention were very good teams that were influential and played beautiful soccer but great teams win the world championship at least once and neither did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 quote:Originally posted by SCF08 The belgians finally are going to have a team again that can challege us Dutchies. They may be going to better as well with their defensive talents....we have only got 1 in Dirk Marcellis First step: Get as good as Poland. [:I] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly One can find numerous examples of lower level competitions that have more competitive and exciting finals than higher level competitions but it still doesn't make them higher level. I agree that the last Euro (unlike the terrible previous Euro) was more exciting and had a better playing style than the last World Cup but that still doesn't make it a higher level competition than the former. If the Euro is such a high level competition, why was the worst team in the last World Cup from Europe? The Holland and Hungarian teams you mention were very good teams that were influential and played beautiful soccer but great teams win the world championship at least once and neither did. The argument that neither the Dutch in the 70s or the Hungarians in the 50s were not great football teams because they did not win the World Cup is pretty damn foolish I'd say. Hungary, from what I have heard and read and the bits you can see, from what we know about the players, was one of the greatest sides in world soccer history, greater than at least a third of World Cup winning national sides. What may or may not happen at a tournament, where refs, luck, home crowds and other oddities alter the result of a knock-out match, cannot alter questions of quality, and reduce it to a banality. The same way that amongst Eurocup teams everyone knows the Greeks were not a great European team, but the Spanish this time round were. Obvio como la luz del día, diría yo. So your argument is terribly flawed, because you think you have to win as the only proof of greatness, when anyone who knows anything about cycling knows that Poulidor was one of the greatest ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 It’s the American mentality, innit? You beat someone, therefore you’re better than them. Errr ... well, no you’re not. You played better on a particular day and perhaps got some luck that benefited you. That’s all you can read into it. Knowing that, its inevitable that some great teams aren’t going to win championships. quote:Originally posted by Grizzly I agree that the last Euro (unlike the terrible previous Euro) was more exciting Euro 2004 was a cracking tournament up until the last two games which were absolute crap. 4-out-of-5 knockout games were breath-taking until those last two rubbish games. And there was actually 15% more scoring in the group-stage compared to Euro 2008. That's far from "terrible". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 quote:Originally posted by amacpher It’s the American mentality, innit? You beat someone, therefore you’re better than them. Errr ... well, no you’re not. You played better on a particular day and perhaps got some luck that benefited you. That’s all you can read into it. Knowing that, its inevitable that some great teams aren’t going to win championships. Euro 2004 was a cracking tournament up until the last two games which were absolute crap. 4-out-of-5 knockout games were breath-taking until those last two rubbish games. And there was actually 15% more scoring in the group-stage compared to Euro 2008. That's far from "terrible". Okay, I take that back. Only that it would have been amazing if Portugal had beaten Greece 3-2 with a late strike to take the whole thing. The only bad thing about that tournament, apart from Spain being knocked out early (for me), was that Greece was so ultra-defensive and got away with it, and no one was there to step up and show that creative football takes precedent over destructive football. So while there were good matches, the overall lesson was disappointing. I would not say the same about Denmark's "lucky" win in 1992 (as they were a late invite to the tournament), as that team was actually quite talented and entertaining, and they played a rather open style which I found admirable. I can accept that a club has to win its league to be considered great, because a league is only won with consistency, and that means everyone, including fans, front office, physios, trainers, the second and even third keeper, have to be on form and contribute. But a tournament like the World Cup is like NFL playoffs, it is not based on who is best, but on who is good and has a good run and is hot on a certain day or during the right week. The whole idea that a team whose "best" player was Cannavaro can claim greatness while a team with Czibor, Koscis, Bozsik and Puskas cannot is frankly laughable and an insult to basic football intelligence. Apart from the fact that they lost a final fixed by Mussolini in Italy in 38, who chose the refs and from what we know paid them off, and got screwed by the reffing team rather royally in the 54 final vs. Germany, so they say (a tying goal called back for a dubious offside, a glaring penalty not called) in what was the only loss in a six year period they went undefeated. Hungary is according to retroactive Elo ratings the highest ranking team in the history of world football, but Grizzly thinks we can't call them great because they didn't play at home where the local dictator could ensure them victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCF08 Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 quote:Originally posted by amacpher First step: Get as good as Poland. [:I] They are already better than Poland. If you analyse every player in every position I think I would only choose the Polish goalkeeper over the Belgian one. Every other player in the Belgium team is stronger than the Polish one. Poland do have a quality manager though.. I'd pick him also any day over the Belgian one.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.