Jump to content

We should do something


Dante79

Recommended Posts

If the media doesnt talk and promote the NT games on the news papers maybe we should get involve and insists that the CSA and all the assosiations in Canada promote the games with publicity! on the radio,newpapers,on RDS, TSN ect ect...so that people know when we are playing, so that they can get to know the players....we the fans can do our part in avoiding embarassing moments like saturday, were we felt like in Tegucigalpa!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by Javier

well some players of canada are well known for football fans like de guzman brothers hargreaves, radzinski and imhof, de vos and forrest were well known as yallop, and de rosario in mls

true, we Canadian soccer fan know them! what i meant is to convirt new fans, either people who just follow european or south american soccer or people who never watch soccer! We also need to do this to make people know that the national team is playing an important game! only this way we will get pro canadian fan in the stadums accross Canada

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by Dante79

If the media doesnt talk and promote the NT games on the news papers maybe we should get involve and insists that the CSA and all the assosiations in Canada promote the games with publicity! on the radio,newpapers,on RDS, TSN ect ect...so that people know when we are playing, so that they can get to know the players....we the fans can do our part in avoiding embarassing moments like saturday, were we felt like in Tegucigalpa!

I agree. Regardless of results or crummy coaches, games should be advertised more than they are now by the printed media, television, websites, radio, local associations, in malls, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We should insist in having little posters on newspaper to advertise the games, the same type of advertisement like we see on the CSA web site, but we shouldnt only see them in the local newspaper where the game is going to be held, but in every major newpaper accross Canada, I dont think its asking for much, all we want is at least 1 page talking or advertising the NT games

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey guys were have you been.I am suppose to be the media guru and have been after that media for about 30 or so years. I not only agree that something needs to be done ,but also welcome any good suggestion. It is indeed up to us to provide that support that the CSA needs when they are involved in a match involving any of our teams.

I would like to warn you that these guys have a very strong dislike towards soccer and in some cases would even go out of their way to make us look bad. It is certainly a huge problem and has been for many many years.

This alone is a very big story as to how the media in this country have been anti soccer in many various ways.

Case in point ,Steve Simmons of the Sun a columnist who has never even once said a word about soccer yet he is a very well known writer and columnist and has many articles on a bi weekly basis.

There are many others that will boycott us and even are against us big time. Our guys from all soccer suffer because of this and the results are very evident.So I welcome any suggestions and would like to be involved in creating a soccer promotion section on our site to ensure that we are all up to date and can take the appropriate actions as well as support for our teams.

If soccer is to be one of the major sports in Canad we must ensure that we have the total support and good working relationship with all media.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by john tv

Hey guys were have you been.I am suppose to be the media guru and have been after that media for about 30 or so years. I not only agree that something needs to be done ,but aalso welcome any good suggestion. It is indeed up to us to provide that support that the CSA needs when they are involved in a match involving any of our teams.

I would like to warn you that these guys have a very strong dislike towards soccer and in some cases would even go out of their way to make us look bad. It is certainly a huge problem and has been for many many years.

This alone is a very big story as to how the media in this country have been anti soccer in many various ways.

Case in point ,Steve Simmons of the Sun a columnist who has never even once said a word about soccer yet he is a very well known writer and columnist and has many articles on a bi weekly basis.

There are many others that will boycot us and even are against us big time. Our guys from all soccer suffer because of this and the results are very evident.So I welcome any suggestions and would like to be involved in creating a soccer promotion section on our site to ensure that we are all up to date and can take the appropiate actions as well as support for our teams.

If soccer is to be one of the major sports in canada we must ensure that we have the total support and good working relationship with all media.

What about the idea of a once weekly column of "Canadians Abroad"? It could be in as many papers as can be convinced to pick it up, like Corner Kicks. It would be a write-up of the exploits of the Canadian national team members in their club careers that past week (obviously). I'd have a hard time believing the papers wouldn't pick that up, given that they run "Corner Kicks" which is basically a broad and toothless round-up of Large Euro Footy Only.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by john tv

Hey guys were have you been.I am suppose to be the media guru and have been after that media for about 30 or so years. I not only agree that something needs to be done ,but aalso welcome any good suggestion. It is indeed up to us to provide that support that the CSA needs when they are involved in a match involving any of our teams.

I would like to warn you that these guys have a very strong dislike towards soccer and in some cases would even go out of their way to make us look bad. It is certainly a huge problem and has been for many many years.

This alone is a very big story as to how the media in this country have been anti soccer in many various ways.

Case in point ,Steve Simmons of the Sun a columnist who has never even once said a word about soccer yet he is a very well known writer and columnist and has many articles on a bi weekly basis.

There are many others that will boycot us and even are against us big time. Our guys from all soccer suffer because of this and the results are very evident.So I welcome any suggestions and would like to be involved in creating a soccer promotion section on our site to ensure that we are all up to date and can take the appropiate actions as well as support for our teams.

If soccer is to be one of the major sports in canada we must ensure that we have the total support and good working relationship with all media.

That is a great idea John tv, having a section of the site dedicated to the development and implementation of media promotion and public awareness related to the CMNT. I am sure that many Voyageurs are educated in such things and probably a number of them even work in this field. A place where ideas can be thrown around and then put into action.. great idea!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by john tv

Hey guys were have you been.I am suppose to be the media guru and have been after that media for about 30 or so years. I not only agree that something needs to be done ,but aalso welcome any good suggestion. It is indeed up to us to provide that support that the CSA needs when they are involved in a match involving any of our teams.

I would like to warn you that these guys have a very strong dislike towards soccer and in some cases would even go out of their way to make us look bad. It is certainly a huge problem and has been for many many years.

This alone is a very big story as to how the media in this country have been anti soccer in many various ways.

Case in point ,Steve Simmons of the Sun a columnist who has never even once said a word about soccer yet he is a very well known writer and columnist and has many articles on a bi weekly basis.

There are many others that will boycot us and even are against us big time. Our guys from all soccer suffer because of this and the results are very evident.So I welcome any suggestions and would like to be involved in creating a soccer promotion section on our site to ensure that we are all up to date and can take the appropiate actions as well as support for our teams.

If soccer is to be one of the major sports in canada we must ensure that we have the total support and good working relationship with all media.

Here's a good one: http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=1&TOPIC_ID=17348#229436

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by Javier

well some players of canada are well known for football fans like de guzman brothers hargreaves, radzinski and imhof, de vos and forrest were well known as yallop, and de rosario in mls

Nobody but a handful of fans knows any of those names in Canada. I guarantee you that. I could walk down any street in Toronto right now and ask the first person I met to name any CMNT players. Good luck! Couldn't name the coach, couldn't name a player. Ask them to explain how the CONCACAF WC qualifying works. You'd get a blank, maybe suspicious look . . . kunka-wha?? Canada is not going to be a "soccer nation" for decades yet, so get used to the losing. The old time Voyageurs are already used to it but the new fans will have to get used to it, too. It's going to take a long time - A LONG TIME!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am so impressed with all that amazing fan support and total commitment to Canada,I am also very disturbed by that Canadian media. These guys are totally not interested in Canadian soccer. They will give us the lip service but I can assure you they detest us in many ways.I say this because I have spoken to those that work in the media rooms and have given me detailed accounts as to the workings of the sports department.

The sports department are also under a lot of pressure to keep the baseball,hockey and football gurus happy,We simply don't exist and we are getting the lip service.

What we have is a sport that for some mysterious reasons has been blackballed by the media and still obviously is. Every player on our National team will tell you this and they all know that they are looked upon as some sort of a minority.I believe that we can change this.I can assure you that having been around the V's I can truly say that they are all outstanding Canadians who all have a great future in this country. They all seem to be well educated,very healthy and very Canadian.We have so much to offer and so much that we can do.What we have is the nucleas of that change that can force that media to realize that what we have is beautiful,fantastic,worldly and something that can put Canada in the world limelight.Our young soccer players need to grow up and have heroes and they must be Canadian heroes. Without the support of the media they will never know.I have said so may times is that our lives are all about our children.

I have always felt that way and has been the great motivator as well.I also know that many of you are very young and I guess you may relate to this looking back at your parents who realized this and acted this way as well.But we can't have that media stopping us from feeling that we can play at the highest levels and that we get that recognition.

Canadian soccer has been shafted for so many years and some of you may disagree but folks don't confuse the rest of the world with us. European soccer gets some attention,but I can assure you they the media don't want Canadian soccer to become a major player.

This is what we have to change and this is what I feel is what we must do and big time.

If an event takes place involving a Canadian team,we must unite to ensure that these guys are aware that this is very major and not only in the city were it takes place but also on the other side of our country.

Our team is made up of players from all over Canada so this is an automatic.

I would like to know who of you are ready to commit to act on behalf of the V's to contact that media locally and for starters set up a liaison with that bureau and follow up with emails,phone calls and even personal visits.

I know we can do it since I have done it.

Any suggestions, recommendations and commitment to the CAUSE?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by john tv

I am so impressed with all that amazing fan support and total commitment to Canada,I am also very disturbed by that Canadian media. These guys are totally not interested in Canadian soccer. They will give us the lip service but I can assure you they detest us in many ways.I say this because I have spoken to those that work in the media rooms and have given me detailed accounts as to the workings of the sports department.

The sports department are also under a lot of pressure to keep the baseball,hockey and football gurus happy,We simply don't exist and we are getting the lip service.

What we have is a sport that for some mysterious reasons has been blackballed by the media and still obviously is. Every player on our National team will tell you this and they all know that they are looked upon as some sort of a minority.I believe that we can change this.I can assure you that having been around the V's I can truly say that they are all outstanding Canadians who all have a great future in this country. They all seem to be well educated,very healthy and very Canadian.We have so much to offer and so much that we can do.What we have is the nucleas of that change that can force that media to realize that what we have is beautiful,fantastic,worldly and something that can put Canada in the world limelight.Our young soccer players need to grow up and have heroes and they must be Canadian heroes. Without the support of the media they will never know.I have said so may times is that our lives are all about our children.

I have always felt that way and has been the great motivator as well.I also know that many of you are very young and I guess you may relate to this looking back at your parents who realized this and acted this way as well.But we can't have that media stopping us from feeling that we can play at the highest levels and that we get that recognition.

Canadian soccer has been shafted for so many years and some of you may disagree but folks don't confuse the rest of the world with us. European soccer gets some attention,but I can assure you they the media don't want Canadian soccer to become a major player.

This is what we have to change and this is what I feel is what we must do and big time.

If an event takes place involving a Canadian team,we must unite to ensure that these guys are aware that this is very major and not only in the city were it takes place but also on the other side of our country.

Our team is made up of players from all over Canada so this is an automatic.

I would like to know who of you are ready to commit to act on behalf of the V's to contact that media locally and for starters set up a liaison with that bureau and follow up with emails,phone calls and even personal visits.

I know we can do it since I have done it.

Any suggestions, recommendations and commitment to the CAUSE?

Yes the only way to achieve such a thing is with unity. One example is before the Canada/Jamaica game in Toronto you could actually find some media press on the game. Sports radio stations were actually dedicating an hour or two to the game to promote it. If we dont' stick together nothing will happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by john tv

I am so impressed with all that amazing fan support and total commitment to Canada,I am also very disturbed by that Canadian media. These guys are totally not interested in Canadian soccer. They will give us the lip service but I can assure you they detest us in many ways.I say this because I have spoken to those that work in the media rooms and have given me detailed accounts as to the workings of the sports department.

The sports department are also under a lot of pressure to keep the baseball,hockey and football gurus happy,We simply don't exist and we are getting the lip service.

What we have is a sport that for some mysterious reasons has been blackballed by the media and still obviously is. Every player on our National team will tell you this and they all know that they are looked upon as some sort of a minority.I believe that we can change this.I can assure you that having been around the V's I can truly say that they are all outstanding Canadians who all have a great future in this country. They all seem to be well educated,very healthy and very Canadian.We have so much to offer and so much that we can do.What we have is the nucleas of that change that can force that media to realize that what we have is beautiful,fantastic,worldly and something that can put Canada in the world limelight.Our young soccer players need to grow up and have heroes and they must be Canadian heroes. Without the support of the media they will never know.I have said so may times is that our lives are all about our children.

I have always felt that way and has been the great motivator as well.I also know that many of you are very young and I guess you may relate to this looking back at your parents who realized this and acted this way as well.But we can't have that media stopping us from feeling that we can play at the highest levels and that we get that recognition.

Canadian soccer has been shafted for so many years and some of you may disagree but folks don't confuse the rest of the world with us. European soccer gets some attention,but I can assure you they the media don't want Canadian soccer to become a major player.

This is what we have to change and this is what I feel is what we must do and big time.

If an event takes place involving a Canadian team,we must unite to ensure that these guys are aware that this is very major and not only in the city were it takes place but also on the other side of our country.

Our team is made up of players from all over Canada so this is an automatic.

I would like to know who of you are ready to commit to act on behalf of the V's to contact that media locally and for starters set up a liaison with that bureau and follow up with emails,phone calls and even personal visits.

I know we can do it since I have done it.

Any suggestions, recommendations and commitment to the CAUSE?

What about my above suggestion about a weekly Canadians Abroad article for the newspapers, similar to Corner Kicks which appears once a week in several papers (but unfortunately only discusses big Euro club soccer, and even when mentioning La Coruna or Spurs never mentions Canadians by name)? It could bring some much-needed attention for guys like DeGuzman, Friend, Occean and others who are having consistent success with their clubs but no press about it for the average Canadian to find out about. This could go a long way to attracting interest through the player's own "stardom". Do you think it sounds like the kind of thing the newspapers might be interested in if we pressed? What do you do to offer something like that? Do you write a couple of "pilot" columns and send them to the papers or what? I confess journalism ignorance....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

well , i do not understant why soccer was blacklisted in your country, maybe it is beacuse with football you get violence, vandalism, and hooligans, it is the people`s game the the sport of joe public, and what makes even weird is that canada has the same roots as we have in Argentina, australia and many , many countries with european inmigration.

Even your case is even worst because canada is full of descendant of 2 etnic soccer mad contries , like IRELAND and SCOTLAND , they u have FRANCE CANADA, portuguese, croats, polish, so i still do not get it....maybe it is because Canada has always looked to much to the US , in many many ways as Mexico does

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by Javier

well , i do not understant why soccer was blacklisted in your country, maybe it is beacuse with football you get violence, vandalism, and hooligans, it is the people`s game the the sport of joe public, and what makes even weird is that canada has the same roots as we have in Argentina, australia and many , many countries with european inmigration.

Even your case is even worst because canada is full of descendant of 2 etnic soccer mad contries , like IRELAND and SCOTLAND , they u have FRANCE CANADA, portuguese, croats, polish, so i still do not get it....maybe it is because Canada has always looked to much to the US , in many many ways as Mexico does

When the original wave of Irish, Scottish, and Italian immigration hit this country soccer was not popular in any country. It was just starting, like all pro sports. So when pro sport began to swell in the 1880s and 90s they did what all North Americans did: began to follow Baseball, hockey and American football. That their cousins who stayed behind in the old country were getting into soccer was just a cultural difference. Soccer did not start to make an appearance in a serious grassroots way (associations, amateur leagues, etc.,) here until the 60s, and even then was mostly considered a children's and women's sport (I'm talking about in the general society here not among the diehards who did certainly exist). It has been my experience that even now it suffers the legacy of having been a "children's sport" in this part of the world in the consciousness of the average sports fan. The reason it was mis-diagnosed as such was because it lacks the brutality of pointy-ball and hockey (that is not a criticism btw) and also lacks the extraordinary complex rules of baseball and pointy-ball (that IS a criticism haha). So it was seen as a SIMPLE and SOFT sport. I still meet people (mostly older) all the time who have this perception of the sport. ( I think it is simple, which is why I love it, but it certainly isn't soft...)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The media is even worse in Quebec. I was watching Radio-Canada's coverage of the Impact-Real Esteli game last week and couldn't get over how much misinformation was coming from the play-by-play guy. First of all, over the two legs Claude Quenneville referred to Real Esteli as "Le Nicaragua" every time except for once (and that was in the first 5 minutes of the first leg). When the Impact won he said that they will play in a group comprised of Honduras, Mexico and Trinidad & Tobago. And he clearly wasn't saying CLUBS from Honduras, Mexico and T&T. He couldn't get the concept that it was a club competition and was messing up all his facts throughout the two legs. He obviously had no clue how the competition worked and how soccer is organized in this region because he always had to be corrected by the colour man several times. The colour guy actually was pretty good but his name escapes me.

Finally, as the game was coming to an end they mentioned the Canada-Honduras game and Quenneville says that for Canada to make it to the World Cup they have to win the championship of CONCACAF!

If the guy relaying the information to the viewers is so uninformed and incompetent, how can the general public learn about the game and become fans?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All I can say to that, is that Radio-Canada is probably the only other major media source that gives any coverage to the sport besides Rogers Sportsnet (not including local radio broadcasts). Sure it is an amateur broadcast, but lets be honest, at least it is a broadcast. All home games covered on television and if I'm not mistaken, that's pretty comparable to TFC's coverage (between CBC and Rogers). Not an excuse for shoddy commentators, just giving SRC a little cred. :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know this post isn’t going to be popular but here it goes.

All this blame, searching for answers and bewilderment over the lack of coverage in the media is confusing.

Has anyone ever thought that maybe we’re just not good at soccer? Not sure why people can’t accept that. We aren’t good and never really have been.

It doesn’t mean it will stay that way forever. Or that we can’t talk about ways to improve. But there seems to be this sense on here that changing a coach or a player or petitioning the CSA is going to instantly turn us into contenders.

Sure it’s embarrassing to lose to countries with smaller populations, but what do people expect? What historical precedent have we set to expect to compete and, God forbid, actually move on to the World Cup? One appearance and no goals scored in WC action? An embarrassing showing at the Under-20s? Some fleeting success at the Gold Cup?

People, let’s get real. We stink at soccer. That’s not negative, it’s reality.

We have some talented players, sure. But we’re years and years away from making our mark in the world. If it ever happens at all.

And this JohnTV guy who has it out for the media is completely misguided. What other national team ranked 81st in the world gets as much coverage as Canada’s soccer team? None.

We have teams in other sports, who actually perform well on the world stage -- rowers, cyclists, skiers, field hockey, swimmers, softball and track and field, to name a few -- who barely get mentioned unless it’s at the Olympics.

The idea that media outlets have the time or agenda to purposely ignore soccer is completely off base.

Moreover, who cares? What do you care if the soccer team gets one story or 100? I’d like to think most people like soccer because of the game, not because of the media coverage it gets.

Besides, there are always avenues to explore and celebrate your passion for soccer, such as this great site and others like it. So the Sun doesn’t write about soccer, who gives a crap? More stories won’t make us more successful.

More media coverage isn't going to make us better on the field.

We all want to see Canada in the WC and it’s frustrating when they don’t get there. Maybe one day we will and that will be fantastic. But right now, let’s at least be realistic about where we’re at.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by footballfan007

I know this post isn�t going to be popular but here it goes.

All this blame, searching for answers and bewilderment over the lack of coverage in the media is confusing.

Has anyone ever thought that maybe we�re just not good at soccer? Not sure why people can�t accept that. We aren�t good and never really have been.

It doesn�t mean it will stay that way forever. Or that we can�t talk about ways to improve. But there seems to be this sense on here that changing a coach or a player or petitioning the CSA is going to instantly turn us into contenders.

Sure it�s embarrassing to lose to countries with smaller populations, but what do people expect? What historical precedent have we set to expect to compete and, God forbid, actually move on to the World Cup? One appearance and no goals scored in WC action? An embarrassing showing at the Under-20s? Some fleeting success at the Gold Cup?

People, let�s get real. We stink at soccer. That�s not negative, it�s reality.

We have some talented players, sure. But we�re years and years away from making our mark in the world. If it ever happens at all.

And this JohnTV guy who has it out for the media is completely misguided. What other national team ranked 81st in the world gets as much coverage as Canada�s soccer team? None.

We have teams in other sports, who actually perform well on the world stage -- rowers, cyclists, skiers, field hockey, swimmers, softball and track and field, to name a few -- who barely get mentioned unless it�s at the Olympics.

The idea that media outlets have the time or agenda to purposely ignore soccer is completely off base.

Moreover, who cares? What do you care if the soccer team gets one story or 100? I�d like to think most people like soccer because of the game, not because of the media coverage it gets.

Besides, there are always avenues to explore and celebrate your passion for soccer, such as this great site and others like it. So the Sun doesn�t write about soccer, who gives a crap? More stories won�t make us more successful.

More media coverage isn't going to make us better on the field.

We all want to see Canada in the WC and it�s frustrating when they don�t get there. Maybe one day we will and that will be fantastic. But right now, let�s at least be realistic about where we�re at.

I would just have to completely disagree with most, if not all, of your argument. Canada has great football players. A great coach can make those players into a great team. A coach who has no idea what he is doing and doesn't know who to put on the field at what time and in what position can make those great players play poorly as a team. Further more, fan support creates media interest, media interest creates sponsorship interest, sponsorship interest generates revenue for the club allowing for more games played, better equipment, better facilities and most importantly a seasoned and experienced coach. This in turn creates more opportunity for a team to improve and all the while the fan base grows. Games are advertised now because fans, media and advertisers are all interested in the team and the team benefits enormously as a result.

Just my take.. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great points Bratworst!

I'd counter that teams ranked 81st in any sport are never going to get the kind of coverage some people on here seem to think the team deserves. It's just reality.

For a team ranked so poorly, the national squad gets more than sufficient coverage. No other team ranked so low ever gets covered as much.

Success will help increase the coverage though.

I agree that we have some good players. And a better coach could probably get them to play better. But I respectfully disagree that a top tier coach is going to get us into the WC.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yah, less that the coach is key, but more that media coverage can spur on fan support. Fan support encourages sponsorship, etc... I'm sure there are many European countries who do worse than us who have more coverage than we do. Take a look at CBC, TSN.. no mention earlier today (don't know about now) that the game is even going to happen tomorrow, that is crazy! Whether we suck or not, you let people know your country is playing a top 20 team in WCQ, I'm sorry but it's criminal not too. Put it this way, I can find links to the NHL and local English Ice hockey teams on BBC, CBC doesn't advertise a WCQ against Mexico.. just checked again to make sure.

I think coverage has to move with the success.. we have already made it to the World Cup before.. we still get no coverage, as I'm quite certain we didn't right after we made it in 86. It just seems crazy to me, missing out on the largest sporting market in the world for CFL and tennis news (no disrespect intended)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by Dante79

If the media doesnt talk and promote the NT games on the news papers maybe we should get involve and insists that the CSA and all the assosiations in Canada promote the games with publicity! on the radio,newpapers,on RDS, TSN ect ect...so that people know when we are playing, so that they can get to know the players....we the fans can do our part in avoiding embarassing moments like saturday, were we felt like in Tegucigalpa!

There was no problem in Honduran fans getting bus loads up from New York and as far away as San Francisco. FYI the media's job is not to assist any sports body. They cover sports bodies not the other way around. I work in the media and I will not get paid if organizations like the CSA are looking for handouts. That's not how it works in the private sector no matter what level. It's called advertising and it's called buying space in a newspaper or magazine or time on a radio or television station. Money makes the world go around and if the CSA does not want spend a couple of bucks in promoting their property to make a return...well you get what you pay for....as for Johntv you remind me of the people who run the LPGA (want to force non English speaking players to learn English or be suspended)when talking about "the media." Your comments are discriminatory and very close to racist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Originally posted by footballfan007

Great points Bratworst!

I'd counter that teams ranked 81st in any sport are never going to get the kind of coverage some people on here seem to think the team deserves. It's just reality.

For a team ranked so poorly, the national squad gets more than sufficient coverage. No other team ranked so low ever gets covered as much.

Success will help increase the coverage though.

I agree that we have some good players. And a better coach could probably get them to play better. But I respectfully disagree that a top tier coach is going to get us into the WC.

BTW the FIFA rankings are meaningless between about 20 and 100. All the teams in that range can and do beat eachother regularly. Also Canada's poor ranking has more to do with being dormant for long stretches due to poor organization which is also the root of all the other problems.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...