Guest speedmonk42 Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 Just want to make this clear. I am not against them protesting China. You can't protest everything. If you can focus on something and evoke change, fantastic. It is the context we are talking about here, not who did what. To protest something with no context, no introspection, no acknowledgment that the very system you live in doing the same thing or worse is a problem. It is a problem because presumably that same individual has even more power to affect change within their own country, but isn't. So when they stand up and don't or can't acknowledge problems in their own country, it is pretty difficult for people in another to listen, and reduces the power and meaning of the message, rending if far less effective. To say we 'hate the USA' is a great example of someone who is so far removed from any relevant context it is almost impossible to discuss things with them. It is like trying to do physics with someone who refuses to read about calculus. Without it, it is pretty hard to move forward. There is so much information missing when someone just calls Saddam a tyrant with seemingly no context how he might have come to be you are back to physics without math. Unfortunately, it seems making someone grasp their country is responsible for the deaths of millions of people is often actually harder than learning calculus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beaver Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 quote: ..a hierarchy of the damned? Brilliant phrase. I think it should be the title of a book: "A Hierarchy of the Damned". Reminds me of Dante's "Inferno". Beautiful. (I work in publishing and am a writer, so forgive me this moment of happiness). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CG Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 Speedmonk, I did read what you said. Here it is again. "wank off with numbers about some terrible atrocity (which it is) AT LEAST try to make sure those numbers are LESS than the atrocity committed by your OWN GOVERNMENT. So, dismissing Russia lets look at China's record on murdering its own civilians. The death toll from the Great Leap forward alone from 1959-1961 is between 19.5 million and 30 million depending on the source. How does that compare to the death toll caused by the US invasion of Iraq. Higher? Lower? Which is less Speedmonk? "There is so much information missing when someone just calls Saddam a tyrant with seemingly no context how he might have come to be you are back to physics without math." Help me out here please. Are you saying that there was no valid information that Saddam was a tyrant? Or are you saying that valid reasons could exist that would justify him becoming a murdering tyrant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpg75 Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 Not sure what it has morphed into, but the original concept and action by founder Joey Cheek was pretty noble. http://teamdarfur.org/joeycheek "At the 2006 Turin Olympics, Joey represented the United States as a member of the men's USA Speed skating team. After winning gold in the 500m race and silver in the 1000m, he donated the $40,000 awarded him to Right To Play, an international aid organization focused on bringing the benefits of sport and play to the most disadvantaged children in the world. Joey's donation inspired his sponsors and other athletes to collectively donate over one million dollars to children in Darfur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 quote:Originally posted by CG Speedmonk, I did read what you said. Here it is again. "wank off with numbers about some terrible atrocity (which it is) AT LEAST try to make sure those numbers are LESS than the atrocity committed by your OWN GOVERNMENT. So, dismissing Russia lets look at China's record on murdering its own civilians. The death toll from the Great Leap forward alone from 1959-1961 is between 19.5 million and 30 million depending on the source. How does that compare to the death toll caused by the US invasion of Iraq. Higher? Lower? Which is less Speedmonk? "There is so much information missing when someone just calls Saddam a tyrant with seemingly no context how he might have come to be you are back to physics without math." Help me out here please. Are you saying that there was no valid information that Saddam was a tyrant? Or are you saying that valid reasons could exist that would justify him becoming a murdering tyrant? Again, totally missing the point by proceeding with no sense of context. Give me a number that is ok to kill. You decide. What is the cut off? I am saying once it is in the millions is it really worth arguing that one is worse than the other? Clearly they both need to be stopped. As for Saddam, yes I will help you out. The United States created him and supported him though the worst of his atrocities. Not just complicity, but support. For that NOT to be relevant it takes a level of self serving simplification to put you on par with people stuffing Jews into trains and shrugging 'who knew'. Worse because you have access to more information than anyone alive at that time by orders of magnitude. And this brings us back to your number. How many people is it ok to kill for all the rationalization to make sense? Please let us know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 Why didn't I write this the first time. It isn't ok to kill a bunch of people, because someone else killed more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CG Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 "Clearly they both need to be stopped." We agree then that they both need to be stopped. Therefore can I assume that after 14 UN resolutions saying precisely that you have no problem with the US getting up off of its barstool and doing its best to stop exactly that in Iraq? As for Saddam, the US had a choice to make either ignore the mistakes you point out or knock him out. They knocked him out. There are many dead quite dead murderers who wish they hadn't, and apparently few posters on this thread as well. Joey Cheek is American making a reasonable request. The following does not sound like wanking to me. "We appeal specifically to China because China, with its huge economic investments and oil interests in Sudan, as well as its weapons trade, is uniquely-positioned to demand that Khartoum immediately stop the atrocities, protect its people in the Darfur area, work with them to rebuild the region and heal their wounds." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 So if you were to make a mistake that killed hundreds of thousands of people, more depending on how you want to count (creating and supporting Saddam), you are saying it is a good idea to kill hundreds of thousands more to fix the problem? You put the people in jail who caused the problem and pay billions in reparations to the country you destroyed. That is a solution. Not killing hundreds of thousands more people and ignoring what you did. That is what happened, and it is totally undeniable. Any rationalization of it is representative of a way of thought that is totally reprehensible and deeply racist. I really doubt the dead people before or after would agree with the solution the problem at the time, or the solution to the problem today. It is a price they pay, not us. Again, you pick the number. How many people should die in Iraq that is acceptable to fix the problem the United States created? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 If you want to base things on UN resolutions, how about the ones telling the United States to stop. Again, apply the same standard. If you believe in those then I suppose you wouldn't mind if Honduras(or others) killed a few hundred thousand people in California to get them to stop. EVEN WORSE! What if they killed a proportional number of people to the number the US was killing in their country, that would be staggering, but unthinkable because the US is the good guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CG Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 I guess you didn't mean it when you said "Clearly they both need to be stopped." Selling a gun to someone who pulls the trigger and murders someone does not make one guilty of a murder. So be it, you appear to think it does. I won't agree with you but you certainly have a right to that view thanks to brave men who went before you and secured your freedom. To answer your question, precisely the number of people that did die in Iraq to stop Saddam's genocidal rampage. Nothing less. By the way, I also think it was a good idea to stop Hitler. My bad I guess. As for the UN, its apparent that if you leave things in their hands murderous rampages like Rwanda...... or for that matter Darfur play out. I only mentioned the UN resolutions because because it points out profoundly how prepared they were to do absolutely nothing about a situation I thought you stated "need(ed) to be stopped." Me, I am just glad that the USA, Britain and a few other decent global citizens got up off of their barstools and did their best to stop innocent civilians from being killed. I would be glad if a similar coalition went into Darfur and did the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terpfan68 Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 When you are a "player" on the world stage you are damned if you do and damed if you don't. At the time Chamberlin was a hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 "Selling a gun to someone who pulls the trigger and murders someone does not make one guilty of a murder. So be it, you appear to think it does. I won't agree with you but you certainly have a right to that view thanks to brave men who went before you and secured your freedom." It absolutely does when you know they are a killer, have killed, and will continue to do so. We are talking about decades of support. Not a one time mistake. The CIA put him in power to begin with, that was just the beginning. No conspiracy theories here, it's all documented. Do you have any idea what the U.S has done in some of these countries? Be it Iraq, Iran, Chile, Honduras, Venezuela, Indonesia.... and more? School of the Americas? Operation Condor? Any of this? I totally appreciate that you are still talking, in fact I respect it alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CG Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 Whether you agree or not, the world is governed by the aggressive use of force. The issue as I see it is whether or not the force is wielded for good or for evil. Freeing Iraqis from Saddam was not evil my opinion, nor would an invasion of Somalia and the ensuing toll of death be evil either. Thats just not negotiable in my opinion. I wish something had been attempted in Rwanda. Certainly something was in Kosovo and its a good thing it was. Canadians were there, and I find it odd that Canadians get so upset when we are trying to do essentially the same thing in Afganistan. I guess it's OK for some Canadians that left alone the Taliban would slaughter innocent civilians, prevent children from going to school, force women to live indoors and kill them for being raped. Beats me. There are lots of ill behaving countries in the world, and from time to time it is necessary to gather valiant troops together and go in and do your best to protect civilians from their rulers. I have made several cases in point that distinguish the USA dramatically from countries like Russia and China, who together have by design killed millions of their own citizens. There is no evidence whatsoever of the USA ever having done anything similar. By that measure alone, the USA is a decent country in this world. Perhaps Terpfan captured it best with his comment "When you are a "player" on the world stage you are damned if you do and damed if you don't." Me, I want 'em to "do". I trust them. Will they execute perfectly? Nope. Their heart is in the right place though. Freedom and liberty for all. If the USA behaved like other countries do they would have taken over Japan and Germany. Instead they poured fortunes into those countries and the citizens rebuilt their lives. As we speak, the Sunni sect in Iraq has shifted from enemy to ally. Freedom is sprouting in Iraq, much to the chagrin of those that want to see the USA fail. Like Japan and Germany they will leave one day, and turn the country over to the Iraqis to get on with their lives. There is to my knowledge, no other nation in history that has ever left a nation it conquered unless they were driven out like the Russians were in Poland. Nope, they are good guys at heart our American neighbors in my opinion. That is where I stand, for I can stand nowhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 hmmm, are you the same CG poster that supports that guy Pellerud in the GBR Forum? Nothing implied here, just curious to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CG Posted August 14, 2008 Share Posted August 14, 2008 Yes, I do support the entire team in their quest for gold and that includes the coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terpfan68 Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 Can I be anti-American and pro-Pellerud? Can I be anti-Pellerud and pro-American? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 quote:Originally posted by CG Whether you agree or not, the world is governed by the aggressive use of force. The issue as I see it is whether or not the force is wielded for good or for evil. Freeing Iraqis from Saddam was not evil my opinion, nor would an invasion of Somalia and the ensuing toll of death be evil either. Thats just not negotiable in my opinion. I wish something had been attempted in Rwanda. Certainly something was in Kosovo and its a good thing it was. Canadians were there, and I find it odd that Canadians get so upset when we are trying to do essentially the same thing in Afganistan. I guess it's OK for some Canadians that left alone the Taliban would slaughter innocent civilians, prevent children from going to school, force women to live indoors and kill them for being raped. Beats me. There are lots of ill behaving countries in the world, and from time to time it is necessary to gather valiant troops together and go in and do your best to protect civilians from their rulers. I have made several cases in point that distinguish the USA dramatically from countries like Russia and China, who together have by design killed millions of their own citizens. There is no evidence whatsoever of the USA ever having done anything similar. By that measure alone, the USA is a decent country in this world. Perhaps Terpfan captured it best with his comment "When you are a "player" on the world stage you are damned if you do and damed if you don't." Me, I want 'em to "do". I trust them. Will they execute perfectly? Nope. Their heart is in the right place though. Freedom and liberty for all. If the USA behaved like other countries do they would have taken over Japan and Germany. Instead they poured fortunes into those countries and the citizens rebuilt their lives. As we speak, the Sunni sect in Iraq has shifted from enemy to ally. Freedom is sprouting in Iraq, much to the chagrin of those that want to see the USA fail. Like Japan and Germany they will leave one day, and turn the country over to the Iraqis to get on with their lives. There is to my knowledge, no other nation in history that has ever left a nation it conquered unless they were driven out like the Russians were in Poland. Nope, they are good guys at heart our American neighbors in my opinion. That is where I stand, for I can stand nowhere else. Oh man. This is like a broken record. It is easier to teach calculus. How did Afghanistan get that way? How did Iraq get that way? Are you denying the the united states government has waged war directly and indirectly against democratically elected governments killing millions of people? You don't know it or don't believe it? You say the U.S is a good citizen, they most certainly are not. To even suggest such a thing just shows your ignorance. I have not made any excuses for the countries you mention. The only thing happening here is your failure to understand what the U.S has done. I know the good things the US has done AND the bad. You only see one side and it is very dangerous. It is why they are able to continue. It is what makes people like you responsible for the deaths of a lot of people. You talk about valiant troops, but you don't have the knowledge of the guts to face the evil things your own country has done. Back to square one. Podium please, we have come full circle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 Do you live your life like this? Totally unable to recall any sense of responsibility for your actions? Again you totally fail to put anything you are saying in a context that matters. How did those countries get that way. Look it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CG Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 "You say the U.S is a good citizen" And there we stop. We disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 quote:Originally posted by terpfan68 Can I be anti-American and pro-Pellerud? Can I be anti-Pellerud and pro-American? How on earth are those related to one another? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 quote:Originally posted by CG "You say the U.S is a good citizen" And there we stop. We disagree. It most emphatically is not. Look this stuff up, until you do, your not much of a citizen either. I hope people look back on posts like this in the future and see people like you just for what you are. Apologists for murders just like we look back on those in World War II. Everything you say and type could be re written by Germans in the 30's. Save your dignity now and really go learn this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CG Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 Well you've called me a racist, "on par with people stuffing Jews into trains", not much of a citizen, and an apologist for murders. And now you are calling me ignorant for not believing your assertion that the USA has killed millions of people in democratically elected countries. Bye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 quote:Originally posted by CG Well you've called me a racist, "on par with people stuffing Jews into trains", not much of a citizen, and an apologist for murders. And now you are calling me ignorant for not believing your assertion that the USA has killed millions of people in democratically elected countries. Bye LOL. Yeah. That pretty much sums it up. Anyone capable of casually typing they are comfortable with the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people... The info is there, and it is hard not to draw the same conclusions. If I were willingly supporting the actions of the countries you mentioned, you would rightfully say the same thing. I am not. You are. Go learn, the information is there for you. If it takes getting smacked in the head hard to open up a single neuron to the facts... well good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CG Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 You said millions in democratically elected countries. Backing away from that are we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest speedmonk42 Posted August 15, 2008 Share Posted August 15, 2008 quote:Originally posted by CG You said millions in democratically elected countries. Backing away from that are we? Not really, but if by this reply you are saying hundreds of thousands are ok... well... the joke is on you. It does depend on how you count. But when it come to deaths of literally countless people, playing games of semantics on web posts is pretty silly. I do apologize for being kind of a prick in my last posts though. They were way too harsh. I am just shocked and horrified that this is happening again. When people flatly refuse that this stuff has happened, when the information is all there it is really depressing. It is there, just go and look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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