Amy Walsh trying to save the world

[CG]

No Speedmonk, not so much harsh as delusional. When you state which democratic countries the United States has killed millions of people in, I will look it up with great interest since I am not aware of anything like that in existence. Until then your assertions that there is this information out there is just that, an assertion. Like your name calling a deflection from the central issue. Which is:

The death of hundreds of thousands innocent citizens is not acceptable. I remember you also stated that these situations "clearly need to be stopped". So then what to do about it? I know I prefer action against those that kill civilians, such as Saddam's regime, the mess in Darfur, the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo/Bosnia. Rwanda etc. Action that hopefully results in the violent deaths of the oppressors who sadly often vanquish still more civilian lives before they go. Peeling back reprehensible behavior costs lives. I am grateful that my father suited up and went ashore on D-Day that Europe would be free from the Nazi yoke and the Jews from complete extermination. What you think should be done about these things I have no idea, except to assume that you disagree.

So lets disagree and let it go.

Nite.

[Guest speedmonk42]

quote:Originally posted by CG

No Speedmonk, not so much harsh as delusional. When you state which democratic countries the United States has killed millions of people in, I will look it up with great interest since I am not aware of anything like that in existence. Until then your assertions that there is this information out there is just that, an assertion. Like your name calling a deflection from the central issue. Which is:

The death of hundreds of thousands innocent citizens is not acceptable. I remember you also stated that these situations "clearly need to be stopped". So then what to do about it? I know I prefer action against those that kill civilians, such as Saddam's regime, the mess in Darfur, the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo/Bosnia. Rwanda etc. Action that hopefully results in the violent deaths of the oppressors who sadly often vanquish still more civilian lives before they go. Peeling back reprehensible behavior costs lives. I am grateful that my father suited up and went ashore on D-Day that Europe would be free from the Nazi yoke and the Jews from complete extermination. What you think should be done about these things I have no idea, except to assume that you disagree.

So lets disagree and let it go.

Nite.

Now you are focusing on what? The minor difference between killing people in a democratic country vs what? People living a dump under a tyrant deserve to die for it?

Nothing delusional about it. Iran, Chile, these are just two examples of democratically elected countries smashed by US intervention.

Start with the Philippines, 1899 I think? At least 250 000 dead are the low estimates. I guess they were a threat to America, weapons of mass mango?

It just goes up from there.

Three million dead in South Asia?

Countless killed in South America directly or indirectly by American Proxy wars or blatant acts of terrorism.

Indonesia?

Iran? Iraq? ect....

How about incinerating 3 million North Koreans with Napalm. Civilians, whole cities wiped off the map and turned to grey ash by fire. Those were NOT soldiers. War crimes.

Start adding it up. The number is not pretty.

Again non of this is delusional.

It can all be rationalized I supposed. The Germans were just defending themselves too. Everybody always is. It takes a great deal of indoctrination to convince people to abstractly murder.

[Soju]

I'm bored so this seems like a good time to wade in

No but see, America put Saddam in power so had to go kill him. What are you a *****? Be a man and don't actually check to see if it's the same people who put him in power that killed him. They said they made a mistake ok? A carefully calculated economically beneficial (for elite companies) mistake at the expense of many lives. The number of lives that mistake cost became a statistic they brought out later, to justify going back into Iraq and killing him in another economically beneficial (for elite companies) mistake at the expense of many lives. The next president will come out and say that was a mistake too, then he'll make another mistake that proves to be economically beneficial (for elite companies) and cost many lives, and the cycle repeats.

Just watch FOX drink your Coca Cola and shut your mouth. Everything is fine. I'm a conspiracy theorist by the way. I believe in the conspiracy that incredibly rich men who are members of elitist clubs are sitting around a table in the White House conspiring to improve the education, health and general livelihood of the citizens who trust them. We must blindly obey these men and adopt their rhetoric such as "support the troops" if they are to succeed.

I've monitored this discussion closely and I have spoken with my people at Bohemian Grove. Speedmonk you have been put on "the list". CG you will be commended for your bravery in the face of history books and silly things like facts. By not letting these things get in your way you have proven yourself worthy of America's highest honour, a McDonald's franchise in a mini-mall. Run it well, and God Speed.

[CG]

"the (Korean( government's Truth and Reconciliation Commission in recent months that accused the United States military of using indiscriminate force on three separate occasions in 1950 and 1951 as troops struggled against Communists from the North and from China. The commission says at least 228 civilians, and perhaps hundreds more, were killed in the three attacks. In one case, the commission said, at least 167 villagers, more than half of them women, were burned to death or asphyxiated in Tanyang, 87 miles southeast of Seoul, when American planes dropped napalm at the entrance of a cave filled with refugees."

228 civilians and you ramp the number up to 3 million. Not much point in carrying on.

[CG]

"I'm a conspiracy theorist by the way"

Duh

[Guest speedmonk42]

The death toll for the Korean war is estimated to be from 2.5 to 3.5 million.

The US is primarily responsible for carpet bombing civilians into the stone age in North Korea.

This is not even disputable, while the numbers probably are. The lowest estimate I have seen 1.2 million.

Not exactly a number to be proud of.

If you do a search look whats comes up. The only people that matter. US Troops, even half a century later the other people don't matter.

[terpfan68]

Let me guess, the Korean war started when the US invaded North Korea, right?

[terpfan68]

And of course no one used carpet bombing in WWII. A war that was still fresh in everyones mind.

[Guest speedmonk42]

The 'limited war'

Without even using such "novel weapons" - although napalm was very new - the air war leveled North Korea and killed millions of civilians. North Koreans tell you that for three years they faced a daily threat of being burned with napalm: "You couldn't escape it," one told me in 1981. By 1952 just about everything in northern and central Korea had been completely leveled. What was left of the population survived in caves.

Over the course of the war, Conrad Crane wrote, the US air force "had wreaked terrible destruction all across North Korea. Bomb damage assessment at the armistice revealed that 18 of 22 major cities had been at least half obliterated." A table he provided showed that the big industrial cities of Hamhung and Hungnam were 80-85% destroyed, Sariwon 95%, Sinanju 100%, the port of Chinnampo 80% and Pyongyang 75%. A British reporter described one of the thousands of obliterated villages as "a low, wide mound of violet ashes". General William Dean, who was captured after the battle of Taejon in July 1950 and taken to the North, later said that most of the towns and villages he saw were just "rubble or snowy open spaces". Just about every Korean he met, Dean wrote, had had a relative killed in a bombing raid (17). Even Winston Churchill, late in the war, was moved to tell Washington that when napalm was invented, no one contemplated that it would be "splashed" all over a civilian population (18).

This was Korea, "the limited war". The views of its architect, Curtis LeMay, serve as its epitaph. After it started, he said: "We slipped a note kind of under the door into the Pentagon and said let us go up there . . . and burn down five of the biggest towns in North Korea - and they're not very big - and that ought to stop it. Well, the answer to that was four or five screams - 'You'll kill a lot of non-combatants' and 'It's too horrible'. Yet over a period of three years or so . . . we burned down every town in North Korea and South Korea, too . . . Now, over a period of three years this is palatable, but to kill a few people to stop this from happening - a lot of people can't stomach it" (19).

[Guest speedmonk42]

quote:Originally posted by terpfan68

Let me guess, the Korean war started when the US invaded North Korea, right?

What exactly are you trying to say?

If you look at the press, it is the same as today.

Yes carpet bombing was fresh on everyones mind. So they lied. "precision bombing" ect, that lie was also used in the Korean war.

But it was not public knowledge.

It works, unfortunately. Both the lie and the bombing.

[terpfan68]

Get real. Communist aggression started the Korean War. Both Germany and Japan were carpet bombed. In Europe the Brits and Canadians bombed at night(remember Bomber Harris)How precise was that? The US bombed during the day both from high altitude. How precise was that? At least from the Brit perspective it was in retaliation from the German bombing civilian population in England. From the US perspective at least the bombing of Japan was for Pearl Harbour. (or do you believe Roosevelt orchastrated Pearl Harbour attack.)

As to war propaganda, ALL countries use it. It's just easier to see what's what because reporter's stories are no longer censored.

Next thing I'll see posted was that Stalin and Mao were just a bit misunderstood. Not really such bad guys at all.

[The Beaver]

quote:Originally posted by terpfan68

Next thing I'll see posted was that Stalin and Mao were just a bit misunderstood. Not really such bad guys at all.

Stalin was a putz, and Mao had a few off days, but the cat I really love is Kissinger. Now that dude was the bees knees of illegal, unethical and immoral US intervention and meddling. he'd be up for war crimes if the US actually joined the international community.

[Guest speedmonk42]

quote:Originally posted by The Beaver

Stalin was a putz, and Mao had a few off days, but the cat I really love is Kissinger. Now that dude was the bees knees of illegal, unethical and immoral US intervention and meddling. he'd be up for war crimes if the US actually joined the international community.

Thank you.

No where have I apologized or disagreed with the likes of China et al... being bastards extraordinaire.

All I am asking is that people acknowledge what the U.S. has done.

Because people like this guy, who ignore it are ultimately who make it dangerous and 'successful'.

[Guest speedmonk42]

quote:Originally posted by terpfan68

Get real. Communist aggression started the Korean War. Both Germany and Japan were carpet bombed. In Europe the Brits and Canadians bombed at night(remember Bomber Harris)How precise was that? The US bombed during the day both from high altitude. How precise was that? At least from the Brit perspective it was in retaliation from the German bombing civilian population in England. From the US perspective at least the bombing of Japan was for Pearl Harbour. (or do you believe Roosevelt orchastrated Pearl Harbour attack.)

As to war propaganda, ALL countries use it. It's just easier to see what's what because reporter's stories are no longer censored.

Next thing I'll see posted was that Stalin and Mao were just a bit misunderstood. Not really such bad guys at all.

Seriously read my things again. No where did I state the US started the war.

Reporters are no longer censored? Are you kidding?

Why on earth would you think someone who is against the war crimes of one country would be for or making light those of another? Just cause this guy does it one way, doesn't mean I am doing the other way.

[Guest speedmonk42]

As to war propaganda, ALL countries use it

-------

Exactly, we agree on that. The US too.

Information is a really big part of the problem. We have far more chance of creating change here than we do in North Korea. It starts with information, and you can't move forward if people don't even know there is a problem.

[terpfan68]

Go back to 1939 or even 1915 and imagine that the United States had never existed and tell me if you think the world would be a better place today.

[Soju]

quote:Originally posted by CG

"I'm a conspiracy theorist by the way"

Duh

Durr but the really funny thing is you're the kind I was lampooning

[Guest speedmonk42]

quote:Originally posted by terpfan68

Go back to 1939 or even 1915 and imagine that the United States had never existed and tell me if you think the world would be a better place today.

Why does this always have to come down to such simplicity.

People, organizations ect.. can do good and bad things. It is this simple truth that needs to be understood. I see the good things, but not seeing the bad is very dangerous.

They need to be responsible for both.

1939 might not be the best year to use. Considering the US was sitting on it's ass at that time making too much money selling crap to the Germans by backrooming the anti collaboration laws (Fanta pop anyone?) didn't join the war until 1941.

[terpfan68]

True about trading with the Germans prior to WWII. I think Ford and GM were in on it too. But their was a lot of Brits who were enamoried with the Nazi and if you want to get into one of the big causes for WWII you have to look at the peace treaty from WWI that punished the Germans. As I recall W. Wilson wanted to cut the Germans a break but England and France said no they would have to pay. This facilitated the rise of Hitler and as they say the rest is History.

My simplistic senario does fit the theme of the topic that has been established by this thread. Pick some "facts" then make some outlandish comments. Complicated problems rarely require simple solutions.