NCAA & CIS vs Europe

[Ricardo06]

I don't mean to open up a can of worms but I don't think that the development models between Europe and North America are too different. Is it fair to compare the top 25 programs of NCAA div 1 and the top 5 CIS schools to European academy programs?

[Daniel]

No.

Academy programs are centred around soccer and start from age 12; players are drafted. NCAA and CIS are university programs where a short soccer season is played during 2-3 months and sometimes indoors.

csd

[loyola]

First, you can't compare the top 5 CIS program with a top 25 NCAA program (the CIS teams would get hammered by any top 25 NCAA team, the quality of the players and coaching is not the same at all).

Second, players are coming to an NCAA program between the age 18-20, so it's a bit late to develop their skills. Academy players are their between age 12 (maybe younger) and 16, so they have more time to improve their skills and they also have coaches who are expert at that.

The NCAA season is about 20-25 games per season plus 5 spring games and don't forget that the best players are also playing in the PDL so they also have a long season but still shorter than the Academy.

The top 25 NCAA programs have develop some solid players (Keller, Stalteri, Onyewu, Friedel, Occean to name a few) but the Academy are developing more quality players at a better rythm.

In almost all the NCAA teams you can find a players who played Academy soccer in Europe but wasn't good enough to continue to the next level and decided to accept a scholarship in the US.

[Ricardo06]

I believe the quality of top CIS teams is very underestimated. If you look at schools like Trinity Western, UBC, and Toronto, they have excellent programs that are worthy of comparison. Trinity has pulled significant results in pre-season battles. They have beaten 2 of their US neighbors in the past two seasons, Washington & Oregon, ranked #21 & #36 respectively.

I meant Academy teams as senior full time Academies which start at 16 through 18 plus reserves which often train within the same context. These Academies are often allowed 4-5 older (18+) to take part. So not a huge age difference between NCAA & CIS & Academies.

Most schools offer university courses to Academy players. I believe it is mandatory up to the age of 16, but many follow through until they make the reserves.

I know NCAA & CIS seasons are officially short. However, top teams train all school year and before school starts in pre-season (8-9 months), nearly everyday even in the Spring. With the addition of Fall Pre-season camps which often begin in July & August. Many programs also have affliated teams where the players play with in the summer. With a top team, many programs play as much 35-40 games per season including non-league games played in tournaments, pre-season, spring games,and mid season exbihition. So the volume of soccer between the CIS & NCAA and Academies isn't much different. Both have breaks throughout the summer too.

But I do agree that the final product in the CIS & NCAA is lacking, especially in the CIS. Academies tend to produce players more consistently. Not to say the CIS & NCAA are not getting to that level.

The gap between the two in facility quality is also closing in fast with many top programs hosting european quality fields.

[Richard]

I can't speak for the CIS universities outside BC but UBC, Trinity, UVic and SFU all have many of their players involved in the PCSL during the university off-season. At the PCSL AGM earlier this month Mike Mosher, head coach at UBC stood up reported that he is convinced his school's recent success at the CIS nationals was directly attributable to their involvement in the PCSL. UBC plays in the PCSL under the name Vancouver Thunderbirds. There will be a Vancouver Thunderbirds women's team in the PCSL in 2006. Trinity has played for years in the PCSL under the Fraser Valley Action name and UVic has many players involved with Victoria United and the Victoria Stars. Obviously these PCSL teams do not exclusively comprise players from the respective schools, but they do provide an excellent development opportunity for many of the varsity players. So, whilst the formal CIS season may be relatively short many BC based varsity players continue playing in the summer in the PCSL.

I agree that the top CIS schools are all too often underrated when comparisons are made with NCAA schools.

[Richard]

I can't speak for the CIS universities outside BC but UBC, Trinity, UVic and SFU all have many of their players involved in the PCSL during the university off-season. At the PCSL AGM earlier this month Mike Mosher, head coach at UBC stood up reported that he is convinced his school's recent success at the CIS nationals was directly attributable to their involvement in the PCSL. UBC plays in the PCSL under the name Vancouver Thunderbirds. There will be a Vancouver Thunderbirds women's team in the PCSL in 2006. Trinity has played for years in the PCSL under the Fraser Valley Action name and UVic has many players involved with Victoria United and the Victoria Stars. Obviously these PCSL teams do not exclusively comprise players from the respective schools, but they do provide an excellent development opportunity for many of the varsity players. So, whilst the formal CIS season may be relatively short many BC based varsity players continue playing in the summer in the PCSL.

I agree that the top CIS schools are all too often underrated when comparisons are made with NCAA schools.

[loyola]

Well, if you look at the rosters of NCAA schools you'll find alot of former and current youth internationals (Maryland has 4 for example plus 9 Region ODP players, Clemson 4 plus 5 ODP). I don,t think you can find that quality in the CIS teams since almost all our youth players are playing in the NCAA.

I agree that the BC programs looks a little bit stronger than the rest of the country but I don,t think that a school like SF(currently playing in the NAIA) or UBC would do well against any top 25 programs in a season game.

[loyola]

Well, if you look at the rosters of NCAA schools you'll find alot of former and current youth internationals (Maryland has 4 for example plus 9 Region ODP players, Clemson 4 plus 5 ODP). I don,t think you can find that quality in the CIS teams since almost all our youth players are playing in the NCAA.

I agree that the BC programs looks a little bit stronger than the rest of the country but I don,t think that a school like SF(currently playing in the NAIA) or UBC would do well against any top 25 programs in a season game.

[Daniel]

C-side reports that a lot of players in Quebec universities are foreign students or walk-ons.

[Ricardo06]

Using youth internationals is not a fair assessment of comparison between the leagues. The states' roster pool for nationals teams are much larger then Canada's national programs. Many of so called youth internationals are former players that have only experienced a stint of international experience, while of course there are the prominent starters with profound experience but those are few and most place themselves in Europe. Many youth internationals perform to the same standard as state level players which top CIS teams can easily compete against.

Even to say, SFU, Trinity, & UBC all have players with national experience.

SFU-Andrew Corraza (Galaxy MLS Combine), Vince Stewart, Nathan Quan, Cam Mackinnon, Thomas Lindley, Milos Jeftic

TWU-Paul Ballard, Patrick Kelly, Nik Perugini (Pro-2 years France), Bruno Napoleao

*Whitecaps Reserves: Diaz Kambere

UBC-Djekanovic, Graham Smith

*Whitecaps Reserves-Nico Marcina

In addition, there are many players who were involved with the NTC programs and almost all with the Provincial programs.

I think the best way to compare the quality of the teams is simply by playing games in the pre-season and spring, and analyze the performance and scores.

[Richard]

US schools typically offer larger soccer scholarships than do CIS school and many have much lower academic entrance standard requirements. There is also the glamour and recognition that comes in Canada with securing a scholarship to a US university that doesn't quite compare with most CIS schools. This is to be expected because, well, the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence is it not? Also, Trinity, UBC, UVic and SFU all play NCAA Div I and II schools on a regular exhibition basis and invariably acquit themselves very well.

[loyola]

There's no way UBC or Simon Fraser could compete in the ACC, PAC-10 or Big ten .

Of course you can use exhibition and spring training matchs to compare the level of play....but just watch one ACC or NCAA tournament game and then go watch a Laval vs. Montreal or UBC vs. Trinity and you'll see two different caliber of play.

Like I've said, the level seems higher in BC but when you look at the results SF(similar level as UBC and Trinity) gets in the NAIA and than compare the NAIA results against NCAA D1 you'll see the difference.

[EA21]

Seeing as how the money available for scholarships in the United States is far greater than in Canada and in addition the lower standard academic entrances play a part in athletes deciding on which schools to go to. I think a good question to ask is whether or not CIS soccer programs would be equal or on the same level as NCAA programs if all or most of the Canadians on scholarship stayed home and attended a school here?

[The Ref]

quote:Originally posted by EA21

Seeing as how the money available for scholarships in the United States is far greater than in Canada and in addition the lower standard academic entrances play a part in athletes deciding on which schools to go to. I think a good question to ask is whether or not CIS soccer programs would be equal or on the same level as NCAA programs if all or most of the Canadians on scholarship stayed home and attended a school here?

Excellent point friend. I think it would make some difference. Perhaps missing in the equation would be that Canadian colleges do not have as good training facilities, as good coaches or as permisible weather. All being equal I think the CIS soccer environment should be very close.

[loyola]

Of course, if the CIS teams had scholarships, NCAA coach, NCAA training facilities, NCAA weather and NCAA players it would be pretty much equal.....

Merry christmas everyone!!!!

[Richard]

I wonder on what basis most of us here are making these judgements about NCAA and CIS levels. Just how many games has any of us actually seen from both of these leagues?

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

I wonder on what basis most of us here are making these judgements about NCAA and CIS levels. Just how many games has any of us actually seen from both of these leagues?

I almost got a scholarship at a NCAA D2 college and I played in the CIS and still go to some games. When I was trying to get to D1 and D2 schools I had someone who sent me college games video to evaluate the level of play (I didn't know which school could possibly offer me something, I find out quickly that top programs in D1 were too good for a provincial player).

I also know some girls who played in the NCAA and they all told me that the men's program are compose with better player in the NCAA because the preparation is better, the coaching is also better and the pressure on a scholarship player is quite huge.

Maybe I've seen 40-50 CIS games and 5-10 NCAA matches.

[Ricardo06]

With the recent addition of Toronto MLS which created talks about further expansions to Vancouver and Montreal. It makes me wonder, if Canada is able to hold in place all 3 cities in MLS, how it would affect the CIS system. I think that with Toronto alone. It would certainly affect Eastern Canadian universities into directing their programs toward player development for the franchise. Would then CIS programs be included in the draft. If so, a drift would begin toward players staying in Canada within the CIS schools rather then migrating south. Perhaps not now, but in the near future I see Canada following identical player development models of the USA. CIS schools would offer full rides, more investment in facilities, more school support, greater publicity, etc... that would then carry over to grassroots sytems like provincial teams, club teams, and NTC's would have a much closer relationship with the college system. I think MLS is the start of Canada's rise in soccer.

[thunderguy]

At present virtually no scholarships are permitted at Ontario CIS schools and that will not change in the foreseeable future. (No entrance scholarships and only minimal $ to 2nd, 3rd and 4th year students)

University presidents make their decisions based on the economic reality of decreased university funding and a priority on academics. If sport even comes into the equation Athletics Directors base their decisions on football, basketball and hockey.

While soccer is important to the folks on this board, it is v-e-r-y low on the radar of Athletics directors.

Having said that I believe that there are excellent players in the CIS BUT top CIS schools would have some difficulty against NCAA competition. The NCAA takes most of the better players and those that stay at home in Canada get no academic breaks and have to compete scholastically against students that don't spend 2+ hours a day on the soccer pitch. At this year’s CIS championships when the focus should have been on soccer at least a dozen players that I know of had mid-term exams to write in their hotel rooms.

[Richard]

Yeah, some scholar athletes at US colleges end up with degrees in basketweaving or underwater firefighting if they graduate at all :-)