Massive Attack Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Official: Fiorentina in Serie B http://www.channel4.com/sport/football_italia/aug20h.html The 2003-04 season in Serie B will be extended to 24 teams with Catania, Genoa, Salernitana and Fiorentina pulled back from Serie C1. The news was confirmed late this evening following a five-hour FIGC meeting to discuss the increasingly chaotic mixture of legal challenges from second division sides. The new-look Serie B will be extended from 20 to 24 teams and will be based on the English Division One – with play-offs for promotion and relegation. In order to fit the extra games into the packed schedule, midweek fixtures will be included when the calendars are redrawn on Friday. Catania sparked the debate by taking legal action after an ineligible player was fielded in the 1-1 draw with Siena back in April. To ensure no more legal challenges would be brought against the Federation, the Government this week ruled that all four relegated sides would be given another chance at Serie B football. This caused further problems, as one of the teams who dropped down in May – Cosenza – do not have the financial stability to register for the new season. A series of sides maintained they had the right to step up in Cosenza’s place, with Pisa and Martina leading the pack, but Fiorentina were given the nod. “Fiorentina are promoted as a reward for sporting merit,” revealed FIGC Vice-President Giancarlo Abete, Fiorentina were up until recently known as Florentia Viola, as the club was founded after the bankruptcy of AC Fiorentina. The side was entirely separate from Vittorio Cecchi-Gori’s outfit and earned promotion from Serie C2 last season. “This is the recognition that the city deserves after all its hard work to rebuild a team in the last year,” commented Mayor of Florence Leonardo Domenici. “Florence belongs at the top of the football world and I’m sure the fans and President Diego Della Valle can help lift Fiorentina to more success.” There are some familiar faces, such as ex-Lecce Coach Alberto Cavasin and captain Angelo Di Livio (pictured). This was not a popular decision, and League President Adriano Galliani was furious. "The FIGC took this step to increase the division to 24 teams, but we will not rewrite the calendars," he snapped. "It is no longer up to the League." Many of the clubs are threatening to boycott the newly promoted sides, with Cagliari chief Cellino and Atalanta President Ivan Ruggeri particularly vitriolic. “This is the sort of thing you’d see in a totalitarian state,” insisted Ruggeri. “We were just ordered to accept these changes, but we will not lie down and take it.” “Around here people just wake up one morning and decide to relegate or promote clubs arbitrarily. This 24-team division will not happen and we won’t play, starting from Sunday’s Coppa Italia games.” Meanwhile, Roma and Napoli have been cleared of fraud charges following the scandal over false guarantee papers. The investigation has ruled that the clubs were the victims of fraud and not intentionally providing false paperwork to prove their financial status. Nonetheless, Atalanta continue to maintain “the situation is irregular” and that they should be promoted back into Serie A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 *lol* So lets see now. Catania was relagated to serie C in May, promoted to serie B in June, relagated to serie C again in July and promoted back to serie B in August. Anyone taking bets on where they'll be next month? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarrek Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 This reminds me of the United Soccer Leagues! Relegation/Promotion based on finances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted August 20, 2003 Author Share Posted August 20, 2003 It does seem a bit outrageous, but it wasn't fair to Catania to send them down to C1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJT Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Jarrek This reminds me of the United Soccer Leagues! Relegation/Promotion based on finances. Not really. Cosenza is the only team being relegated due to finances, but this is standard practice everywhere (ie. if a team can't meet the financial requirements of a certain level, they go to the next level). Furthermore, Cosenza was actually relegated on the field since they finished in a relegation spot last season, so it isn't so much that they are being relegated due to finances as much as it is that they are not being awarded the "bonus promotion" that Catania, Genoa and Salernitana are. Only Catania has a remotely valid argument. Should they be awarded points that were lost against a team (which, ironically, is now in Serie A and free of this mess!) that fielded an ineligible player? Maybe (that's where the "remote validity" comes in), but maybe not. All I know is that this is something that should be covered by the rules before the season starts!!! The courts should not have to get involved!!! (Thankfully they decided that they won't be getting involved again in the future.) But because this wasn't covered by the rules, the ensuing confusion and bickering resulted in Genoa and Salernitana being promoted as well, for no reason other than to calm everyone down. Stupid. But the Fiorentina situation is the worst of all. Their promotion smells bad, really bad. They are being promoted because of their name only, that's it (this case reminds me of Brazil). But, heck, that's how they ended up in Serie C2 in the first place when they really should have dropped all the way to the bottom of the pyramid. This article doesn't even get into some of the other crazy stuff going on. From a different article on the same site: "Cosenza no longer technically exist, but bought out the rights of smaller club Castrovillari so they can continue to play in the professional Leagues." And: "Meanwhile, there are other legal challenges that are taking a novel approach to achieving their aims. L’Aquila were relegated to Serie C2 due to a lack of financial stability and their players are undertaking a hunger strike in protest." And people think the CPSL is bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 Hey. it's Italy, it's all part of the fun! It makes more sense than their politics, and nobody gets killed. At least it's not like Scotland where they refused to promote a team to their "Premier League" (Celtic, Rangers, and the 10 sandlot teams) and relegate down because the team to be promoted did not have an "adequate" stadium. God, if you have sandlot teams, play in a bloody sandlot for gawddddds sake, laddies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 DJT, Fiorentina only dropped down to C2 (too far) because of finances, it's one of the largest cities in Italy, one with a good football history, and a good stadium. I know, I know, that it is technically a different team, but they were such a cut above the other teams in C1 and C2 this year, there are sound moral reasons for a little help. Do I detect some worry from a fan of Lazio, a team that has been relegated down before, and might again because of financial problems in a city that should maybe only have one topnotch team? ? I do agree that 46 league games is a bit much, as it is in the Nationwide leagues in England. (Blatter may start to blather about this congestion, but he's only apparently interested in the top leagues). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 Actually, Fiorentina was suppose to go down to Serie D last year. When a team goes bankrupt (or can't pay the league entrance fees), the rule states that they end up in Serie D. So, 2 years in a row now, the FIGC has helped Fiorentina out. As for Catania, there is a rule stating that playing an ineligible player results in a loss, but the league decided not to accept Catania's protest, that is why Catania went to the courts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted August 21, 2003 Share Posted August 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by beachesl At least it's not like Scotland where they refused to promote a team to their "Premier League" (Celtic, Rangers, and the 10 sandlot teams) and relegate down because the team to be promoted did not have an "adequate" stadium. God, if you have sandlot teams, play in a bloody sandlot for gawddddds sake, laddies! That is bad! Or what about the French league expanding from 18 to 20 teams because Marseille was in serious danger of getting relagated in the smaller league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJT Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 quote:Originally posted by beachesl DJT, Fiorentina only dropped down to C2 (too far) because of finances, it's one of the largest cities in Italy, one with a good football history, and a good stadium. I know, I know, that it is technically a different team, but they were such a cut above the other teams in C1 and C2 this year, there are sound moral reasons for a little help. Do I detect some worry from a fan of Lazio, a team that has been relegated down before, and might again because of financial problems in a city that should maybe only have one topnotch team? ? No worry as a Lazio fan, I have no problem with Fiorentina (they are traditionally Roma's enemies, anyway) and Lazio's finances are alright now that Cragnotti is gone (and more money might be on the way as they are after Nakata and all the Japanese money that comes with him --- I don't like such motivations but I happen to like Nakata as a player and feel that he can help the team so I'm in favour of the move). My worries are for the smaller clubs, like Pisa and Martina (who were in Serie D only a couple of years ago) who were next in line to be promoted to Serie B. I have no doubt that Fiorentina will be back in Serie A before long on their own merit, they do not need help, they do not need favours to be promoted ahead of smaller teams. quote:At least it's not like Scotland where they refused to promote a team to their "Premier League" (Celtic, Rangers, and the 10 sandlot teams) and relegate down because the team to be promoted did not have an "adequate" stadium.But Italy has this rule, too. Stadia have to meet certain criteria. You've probably read The Miracle of Castel di Sangro? Castel di Sangro had to expand their stadium to hold more people than even live in the town before they could play in Serie B. Now that they are in Serie D that stadium must be a white elephant. quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack Actually, Fiorentina was suppose to go down to Serie D last year. When a team goes bankrupt (or can't pay the league entrance fees), the rule states that they end up in Serie D. So, 2 years in a row now, the FIGC has helped Fiorentina out. As for Catania, there is a rule stating that playing an ineligible player results in a loss, but the league decided not to accept Catania's protest, that is why Catania went to the courts. Thanks for the clarification. Are these rules posted somewhere or did you just pick them up along the way? I'm still not completely clear on one thing. If the use of an ineligible player should result in a loss for the team using him that doesn't necessarily mean that the opposing team should be awarded a win. In other words, there could be a deduction of points for the team who used the ineligible player but no reversal of the result. Was this the point being argued, or was it over whether or not the player was actually ineligible? I haven't followed this case very closely until it blew up recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJT Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Of course this story is not finished yet... From http://www.channel4.com/sport/football_italia/aug22i.html: Serie B sides on strike Friday 22 August, 2003 Serie B sides have voted to boycott official games in protest at the expansion of the division and called for FA President Franco Carraro’s head. The emergency meeting of the League was called for this afternoon and also included nine Serie A outfits. The protest was staged following the controversial decision to expand the division from 20 teams to 24, effectively restoring relegated Catania, Genoa, Salernitana and ‘sporting merit’ bonus side Fiorentina. The Viola were allowed to skip a division in order to replace the bankrupt Cosenza, who were relegated at the end of last season. 19 of those original 20 teams set to start this year’s Championship have voted to boycott all official games, including this Sunday’s Coppa Italia, until the situation is resolved. “The Serie B sides are together on this and will not play on Sunday,” announced League Vice-President Antonio Matarrese. “At the moment we are inclined not to play the first Serie B match either, unless of course the FIGC changes the structure of the tournament.” The clubs also allied with Atalanta in refusing to allow their youth players out for international duty at any level. Another League meeting has been called for August 29, in which all the clubs will demand FIGC President Franco Carraro’s resignation. “Serie A outfits did not vote because they were not here in their entirety,” added Matarrese, “but we did ask them to remain united with us.” The Lega Calcio is a union representing all the first and second division clubs, but there has been increasing speculation that it will break away and pave the way for a Premiership style super League. “If Serie A sides do not support B in this,” he continued, “it would be the start of the earthquake within the League.” “At least with an earthquake you can rebuild, but first everything must be torn down and started again from scratch.” “There has been so much talk of a Premier League in Italian football and maybe now is the right time to do that.” The row is particularly bitter, as the FIGC ignored the League’s pleas not to change the 20-team structure of Serie B. The new calendars drawn up yesterday are considered “invalid and illegal” by the Lega. “There is no turning back,” insisted FIGC President Carraro. “We are very sad to see the decision made by these clubs today, but the Federation maintains it is best to play first and discuss it later.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Yes, there must be all sorts of contractual complications concerning players having to play 8 more league games a season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Yes, there must be all sorts of contractual complications concerning players having to play 8 more league games a season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted August 23, 2003 Author Share Posted August 23, 2003 Hey DJT, I'm pretty sure about the Serie D rule. I remember reading about it when Fiorentina first had their problems. As per fielding an inelligible player, you might actually be right. The player in question was suspended, but played the game anyway. I'm not sure what the rules state for punishment on this. The team that fielded the player is in Serie A now (I think its Siena). If Siena was deducted points, they may still be in Serie B (but if that is the case, I wonder why the fifth place team from last years Serie B isn't mad). There should have been some action from the league, you just can't allow the game to stand, at least in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJT Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack The team that fielded the player is in Serie A now (I think its Siena). If Siena was deducted points, they may still be in Serie B (but if that is the case, I wonder why the fifth place team from last years Serie B isn't mad). Yes, it was Siena. They finished first by 1 point over Sampdoria, 5 points over Lecce, 7 points over Ancona and 10 points over fifth-placed Triestina. So even if they were deducted points there's no way that it would be 10 points to allow Triestina to be promoted. Finishing first or second does allow for a bye in the first round of the Coppa Italia, and finishing first does allow you to claim a championship, but neither of these is significant enough to get Sampdoria or Lecce all riled up about Siena losing points. Therefore, whether or not Siena should lose points is not a big deal at this point --- unlike whether or not Catania should be awarded some. I am hesitant to pass judgement on what should have been done (beyond saying that the rules should have been spelled out clearly enough in the first place) because I don't know all the details of the situation nor all technical rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJT Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 And of course it still isn't finished. In fact it just got more stupid. Now they want to add teams to Serie A, then keep it at 20 and Serie B at 22. I knew this was going to happen. As soon as they decided to add teams to Serie B in what appeared to be a temporary quick-fix, I knew the pyramid would never return to what it was. Teams should be pushed down the pyramid, not up. They claim that more teams in A and B will make things more competitive, but I believe it will be the opposite! There were already three hopeless teams in Serie A last season, now there will be five or six! There were already major problems with TV deals last season, now there will be more! All this started because of a technicality surrounding a suspended player getting into a game, then all the other clubs try to take advantage of the situation. Greed. I'm getting so frustrated. From http://www.channel4.com/sport/football_italia/aug25g.html: Gianluca Vialli could prompt a revolution at the head of Italy’s Football Governing body as Serie A could be increased to 20 teams this week. Calcio is in chaos this summer with the unprecedented decision to extend Serie B from 20 to 24 teams. Catania’s legal action saw the Sicilians, Genoa, Salernitana and ‘wild cards’ Fiorentina promoted back to the second division. The other B teams are furious at this move, completed just weeks before the start of the season, and are now on strike. The League is now proposing a restructure of the entire football system, increasing Serie A to 20 teams and leaving Serie B at a more manageable 22. “What is the point of playing games if the relegation spots are changed midway through?” asks Milan midfielder Gennaro Gattuso. The Italian international is a representative of the AIC (Players’ Association) and puts forward a daring proposal. “If I think that this entire chaos has come about because of a technicality in the rules on suspensions, I think our football world is amateurish.” “In my view the way out would be to introduce a former football player to lead the way, much like Michel Platini does with FIFA.” Gattuso already has a suitable candidate to take over the contested FIGC President’s post from Franco Carraro. “A man like Gianluca Vialli has the right charisma and experience to help bring order to our football governing body.” The ex-Sampdoria, Juventus and Chelsea striker was on the market for his first Italian Coaching job, but could be brought in to restore order at a much higher level. Meanwhile, Adriano Galliani’s proposal to extend Serie A to 20 teams from next season could be brought forward to this week. “We like this proposal and it should be made effective as of now,” insisted League Vice-President Antonio Matarrese. “I spoke to the Serie B Presidents, but they don’t trust the authorities to hold their word. Around here guarantees don’t last a day, let alone a whole year,” he added. The proposal, to be discussed in Friday’s League meeting, would see “Atalanta and another club” brought back up into the top flight. Atalanta were only relegated after a play-off with Reggina, but the other spot could cause further controversy. Matarrese has hinted that Piacenza, the next team to be relegated last season, would not necessarily be given that extra place in a 20-team Serie A. Instead, Palermo could be given a ‘wild card’ push up after just failing to earn promotion on the final day of the B season. This solution would also help bolster the number of Southern teams in the top flight and get Palermo President Maurizio Zamparini on the League’s side. Zamparini is one of the staunch opposers of Galliani’s Presidency and point blank refused to consider this new 20-team Serie A proposal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted August 26, 2003 Author Share Posted August 26, 2003 They're starting to make the CPSL look good. How can you add 2 teams to Serie A, when the season is just 5 days away. Stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 quote:Originally posted by DJT And of course it still isn't finished. In fact it just got more stupid. Now they want to add teams to Serie A, then keep it at 20 and Serie B at 22. I knew this was going to happen. As soon as they decided to add teams to Serie B in what appeared to be a temporary quick-fix, I knew the pyramid would never return to what it was. I presume the main reason why serie B teams have a problem with a 24 team league is that it would make it more difficult to win promotion to serie A (more competition) and more likely to get relegated (you would have to relagate at least 6 teams). But by increasing serie A to 20 teams, it means it will be even more difficult to get promoted from serie B to A next season than with the 24-team league! They could probably only promote 2 serie B teams in order to get serie A down to 18 teams the following year again. With each change, not only are they adding more teams to the chaos, but they are screwing the serie B teams more and more!... Only in Italy (or Brazil)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.T. Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 quote:Originally posted by DJT You've probably read The Miracle of Castel di Sangro? Castel di Sangro had to expand their stadium to hold more people than even live in the town before they could play in Serie B. Now that they are in Serie D that stadium must be a white elephant. Great book! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJT Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 quote:Originally posted by DJT Teams should be pushed down the pyramid, not up. [...] They claim that more teams in A and B will make things more competitive, but I believe it will be the opposite! There were already three hopeless teams in Serie A last season, now there will be five or six! Also recall that a while ago I suggested that leagues be capped at 16 teams (this was before Blatter said the same thing). Now Lazio hero/coach Roberto Mancini: "Personally I’d cut it down to sixteen sides, let alone increase it. Even now with eighteen teams there are always two who are practically down at the halfway stage. I think it would be a more balanced division on a technical level and also whittle away the packed fixture list.” Forza Mancio! [^] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Ault Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 Is AS Roma not in danger of being relegated due to financial problems as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted August 27, 2003 Share Posted August 27, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Bill Ault Is AS Roma not in danger of being relegated due to financial problems as well... I think that's one of the few things that has been resolved. AS Roma is staying in serie A. Amazing that they actually resolved something at least 3 days prior to the start of the season!! How boring... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 BBC: [)]Italian football crisis grows Top clubs like European Champions AC Milan oppose the boycott Football clubs from Italy's top two divisions have been discussing a protest which could cause major disruption to the first weekend of the new season. A group of smaller teams from the top flight, Serie A, are considering whether to join a Serie B boycott of matches on Saturday and Sunday because of a dispute over television rights. Club presidents from the two divisions postponed until Friday a decision on whether the season should go ahead on schedule after failing to reach agreement on Wednesday. Nineteen clubs from the second division are currently protesting against a decision to expand it to include four clubs from lower divisions. I hope that Serie A will start but if something doesn't change this week then I believe that the top flight will be stopped as well Gino Corioni Brescia club president The fresh crisis follows a decision by the Italian football authorities to penalise the clubs involved for failing to take part in the group stages of the Italian Cup on Sunday. Each team was deemed to have suffered a 3-0 defeat and had one point deducted. The situation has now been complicated by differences between Rupert Murdoch's Sky Italia, which has the rights to broadcast the games of top Serie A teams, and a new consortium, Gioco Calcio, which is seeking to use part of Sky's platform to cover the games of six lesser clubs. The two groups have so far failed to reach agreement despite weeks of negotiating, and barring a last-minute deal Gioco Calcio will be unable to broadcast. POTENTIAL SERIE A REBELS Ancona Brescia Chievo Empoli Modena Perugia "I hope that Serie A will start but if something doesn't change this week then I believe that the top flight will be stopped as well," said Gino Corioni, president of Brescia, one of the six. Mr Corioni has also expressed support for the second division boycott. But top clubs like Juventus, Inter and AC Milan, which is itself owned by Mr Berlusconi, are opposed, and have said they will seek compensation from the smaller clubs if the protest goes ahead. Parliament recall The decision to expand Serie B was taken by the Italian football federation (FIGC) last week, after Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi issued a decree giving it powers to override the courts. The decree was designed to prevent legal action over relegation and television fees disputes from delaying the start of the football season. The crisis led to a recall of parliament on Monday, despite holidays which normally last into September. The Serie B teams say that the expansion of their division would force them to play more matches while diluting their earnings. The row stems from a lawsuit brought by the Sicilian team Catania, challenging its relegation to Serie C at the end of last season. The FIGC's ruling this week allowed it and two other teams to remain in Serie B - and also promoted Fiorentina from Serie C2. FIGC chief Franco Carraro said that Fiorentina - which was one of Italy's most successful clubs before it went bankrupt last year - should be in the second division because it had many fans, and drew big TV audiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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