Should Mitchell move to U23 or stay at U20?

[Grizzly]

Since it seems that Twamley will leave the U23 and many of us will be happy to see him go, should Mitchell take his place. I have so far been quite impressed with Mitchell but for this reason think he should remain at the U20 level. The U20 World Cup is a more important tournament than Olympic soccer. Success at this level will also lead to more professional opportunities for the players than at the Olympics where most of the players should be under contract by this age. The big reason, however, is that a coach can be a greater positive or negative influence on players at the U20 level. By U23 level the players should already be formed and have some high level experience behind them. Thus in my opinion the CSA should leave the good coach they have at U20 level working in developing our young talent and of course hire a better U23 coach than the current one.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

Since it seems that Twamley will leave the U23 and many of us will be happy to see him go, should Mitchell take his place. I have so far been quite impressed with Mitchell but for this reason think he should remain at the U20 level. The U20 World Cup is a more important tournament than Olympic soccer. Success at this level will also lead to more professional opportunities for the players than at the Olympics where most of the players should be under contract by this age. The big reason, however, is that a coach can be a greater positive or negative influence on players at the U20 level. By U23 level the players should already be formed and have some high level experience behind them. Thus in my opinion the CSA should leave the good coach they have at U20 level working in developing our young talent and of course hire a better U23 coach than the current one.

I'd agree Mitchel should stay with the U-20s as that is a more significant team in terms of influence on the national team landscape.

I am not so sure about Twamley not being up to snuff however. We didn't see the games and, the poor man was missing 4 of the top 7 players in this age group (IMO) for both games: Klukowski, Hume, Dunfield & Pozniak for Honduras and DeGuzman, Klukowski, Dunfield and Hume for the US. We weren't outclassed in either game, appear to have played a possession style and, while toothless against Honduras, had a pretty good offensive game against the US. I am not sure what else we could have expected. Now, game reports may be misleading, but if we played a possession style, and were in fact, relatively equal with the US despite the absence of 4 of our top 6 players, then I'd have to say he deserves to continue. Not one report made any mention of Canada playing either long ball or in a defensive shell. If this is true, then I don't have a problem with him continuing. I also don't have a problem if they do not renew his contract on the basis of needing change either. I just don't think that an undermanned team loosing to Honduras and the US by 1-0 and 2-0 respectively in and of itself warrants dismissal in the absence of so many top players.

[Gian-Luca]

I would leave Mitchell with the new U20 team (some of whom will have played for him already) and then move him up to the Olympic team after the 2005 (assuming the team doesn't under perform under him is some disastrous way). This way Mitchell could stay with the core of the next Olympic team (who will be made up of the 2005 U20 team) and continue to coach them into Olympic qualification.

As Olympic qualifying doesn't start up again until 2008, there's probably not really a huge need for moving Mitchell to the U23 position (or naming anybody else) for some time, ie. 2006 (which of course will be after the next U20 team).

On the other hand, if FIFA keeps the rules the same & we find that we only get the next De Guzman, De Jong, Lombardo, Shepherd, Hughes, Ledgerwood & Edgar (to name a few) for 1 match or less, should we even bother "wasting" one of our better coaches on the U23 program? I hate to say it, but if things stay the same with FIFA & Concacaf (and I'm am skeptical they will change) then we are going to have the same problem for 2008, possibly to a worse degree if more of our players are in Europe, as has been the trend recently (though overall it is a good one). Unless of course things change on the domestic scene where we can develop players here.

Certainly an improvement in coaching can't hurt.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

I am not so sure about Twamley not being up to snuff however. We didn't see the games and, the poor man was missing 4 of the top 7 players in this age group (IMO) for both games: Klukowski, Hume, Dunfield & Pozniak for Honduras and DeGuzman, Klukowski, Dunfield and Hume for the US. We weren't outclassed in either game, appear to have played a possession style and, while toothless against Honduras, had a pretty good offensive game against the US. I am not sure what else we could have expected. Now, game reports may be misleading, but if we played a possession style, and were in fact, relatively equal with the US despite the absence of 4 of our top 6 players, then I'd have to say he deserves to continue. Not one report made any mention of Canada playing either long ball or in a defensive shell. If this is true, then I don't have a problem with him continuing. I also don't have a problem if they do not renew his contract on the basis of needing change either. I just don't think that an undermanned team loosing to Honduras and the US by 1-0 and 2-0 respectively in and of itself warrants dismissal in the absence of so many top players.

I do agree with the above, that Yallop was definitely short-handed, but even so in general I think two unsuccessful kicks at the cans is enough for any coach, especially when its a four year gap in between kicks.

[Grizzly]

Next time the Olympic qualifying shouldn't be so soon after the U20 tournament. The delay of the U20's in UAE probably had a big effect on player availablity because teams had just released some of the same players a month earlier.

How is this for a conspiracy theory? Bush pressures FIFA to not require teams to release players for OQ. Then he invades Iraq on the false WMD premises but really trying to delay the U20 tournament knowing full well that Tranmere will not release Hume for long periods twice within a month thus preventing him from scoring the goal that will eliminate the US from the Olympics. I hope my releasing this information will not lead to Hume turning up with his wrists slashed in a British field in an apparent suicide.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

Next time the Olympic qualifying shouldn't be so soon after the U20 tournament. The delay of the U20's in UAE probably had a big effect on player availablity because teams had just released some of the same players a month earlier.

That only could be the case for Hume - Klukowksi, Dunfield & most importantly De Guzman ( and presumably/possibly Canizalez) weren't eligible for that team. Even with Hume there was no guarantee that Tranmere would have released him had the U20's not been played so late in the year, as he's been very valuable to the team & are the reason why they are still alive in the FA Cup.

[Free kick]

Gordon

One of the things that I am seeing in your post pertaining to our U23 team is similar to to what I have seen in the past from yourself and others in this forum which also goes to the heart of why I believe we sometimes inflate our expectations of our national teams. It can also explain why I had serious doubts about our chances this time around.

Of the top 7 players you mentioned as key contributors, I can count at least two in your list whose accomplishments and or past performance would NOT merit consideration in the category as truly allstar players or standout who truly make a difference in their pro careers (ie.: clubs)and who elevate a national team to new heights by their presence. I cite the the example of Chris Pozniak. I remember this player from his time with the Lynx. I think that I could safely say that I do not think anyone who followed the Lynx, at the time that he was with the club, ever thought of him as difference maker or a guy who was destined for stardom in his pro carreer. He could be seen as steady and reliable but in no way could he be viewed as technically gifted or strong on the ball. he very often went unnoticed and was the type of player who, if well surounded, could be a solid contributor. Hence, the type who could make a career in soccer but not get much headlines. Problem is, National teams are usually made up of all-star players or guys who can make a difference by their presence or skills. Interestingly, I notice Blicharski on the pitch much more than I ever noticed Poz.

In these forums, Poz's status got elevated to level of key contributor the minute that he signed on with Orebro where many assumed that because its Europe, it must be a better environment. What I wonder is, If Poz, had been a member of the Montreal Impact ( who have greater resouces to retain players) would he have bothered to go to sweden? and would we be still thinking of him as one of the seven key players? Or furthermore, would he even be able to nail down a starting spot on the solid montreal Impact defense. The fact that he is in europe has as much to do with the way the Lynx are managed than anything else (ie.: they like to sell players and see themselve strictly a transit point in player development rather than a pro club).

That is where we differ from the US. The americans have a large pool of players who play more or less at the same level and they have to pick a all star team from that large group. So obviously they will get players who are very well rounded and diverse in skills. This give them a big edge in being able to evaluate talent. We, instead have to find 18 players to get up to that level where the US is at. I strongly dispute the notion of Poz or Dunfield as the type of contributors who bring a pedigree that will allow us to beat our chests and say : " Yeah, these guys are as good as what you guys-americans- have". Dunfield is Div 3 and when was the last time a and MLS player left the US to play in Div 3?. To be clear, the intent here, is not to slag or single out these two individual, but to mearly give and example of how our expectations on this forum can get overinflated. I am not necessarily saying that these players don't have a place on present or future national teams but, We cannot start thinking of these type of players as the kind of guys who will lead us to greater heights.

I still maintain, as I have in the past, that there are perhaps two, three, maybe four players within the our U23 who are at a comparable level of development and/or skill of the US counterparts. There is no evidence to suggest that players of this type would be able to crack the line up of a side like the US.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

I still maintain, as I have in the past, that there are perhaps two, three, maybe four players within the our U23 who are at a comparable level of development and/or skill level of the US counterparts. There is no evidence to suggest that players of this type would be able to crack the line up of a side like the US.

If that's the case, and since those players with equal level of the US team (if I am guessing who you think they are - De Guzman, Hume, Klukowski & Canizalez) were all missing from this match, why then did the US team - apparently made up entirely of completely higher-skilled players than our every single member of our team - not destroy us by 7 or 8 goals or overwhelm us with their superior skill in a decidely one-side match?

I think you are guilty of over-rating the US team, particularly past their 3 big players. Or underrating our own - or both. Poz, by the way, I don't think anyone is saying is an "all-star" but I do believe he & our other defenders were comparable to what the US was putting out at the back. As an aside, we may also all be doing a bit of an injustice to Winston Marshall, a regular starter at the back in previous rounds & injured and unable to play this time. In all of the discussions of all of the regulars missing I don't think his name has come up once.

By the way, there have been players who have starred in the MLS & failed to make the English 3rd Division - Rick Titus ring a bell? There is an enormous gap in talent within the MLS itself, which is one reason why the league tends to be higher scoring than most - highly skilled players taking advantage of lesser-skilled players. Lets hope Bartolomeu is not one of the latter group.

[Guest Ed]

F-moi. What a load of positives from two 3-line game reports that said:

" We lost. We never came close to scoring. "

Doesn't anybody get angry over these continuing crap results? Our players seem to be half-decent at the U17 and U20 level, then the drop off commences; and it is steep.

From the USSF game report:

"Unlike Tuesday night's three-goal letdown after quickly posting a 3-0 lead over Panama, the U.S. calmly preserved the lead and played the game out with steady possession and solid individual defending to keep Canada off the board. In fact, although Canada outshot the U.S. 10-8, only two were on target, with defender Nat Borchers clearing a ball a step in front of D.J. Countess on the goalline and Countess making the other save himself."

Here's what the US coach had to say:

"Canada is always a very hard team to play against. They're very physical; they work very hard and one of their main objectives in the game is to stop you from playing. I felt like our team did a good job of battling them in terms of all the air balls that they like to pump into our box. I thought we were very good in the air in the back. The difference in the game was our quickness in the counter-attack and our ability to run at people and create goal-scoring chances. As you saw, we're happy to win the game 2-0, but we had four or five excellent chances as well."

And Landon Donovan had this to say (translated from Spanish):

"Donovan said his team played much better [than Canada], and that it was a very easy game ... he commented that from now on, the games would be much more difficult, now that they'll have to face opponents who play at a far better level than Panama and Canada."

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Gordon

One of the things that I am seeing in your post pertaining to our U23 team is similar to to what I have seen in the past from yourself and others in this forum which also goes to the heart of why I believe we sometimes inflate our expectations of our national teams.

We obviously differ Free Kick. Now I am not rating Pozniak as a all star, and having forgotten Canizales, I say he was 8th best on this batch of players. But he could play in the MLS and be a decent player in that league. Based on seeing him play for Canada and watching the MLS. You disagree? That is fine. I personally think you are underestimating him.

As for Dunfield, it is true that I have been following him from afar. But I would point out that second and third division players have come over to MLS and done just fine. Terry plays a possession style game with a bit of an edge. He is deemed as Bury's most creative player and the majority of Bury fans who bother to post their opinion rate him as better than the 3rd Division. Most agree that his talents don't suit the Third Division. Indeed, even Keegan said that Terry wouldn't show the player he was in the Third Division because it is all run and long ball and that was not a style that showcased his quality. And I'd point out that it was not that long ago that Dunfield was starring for Man City's reserves against players who were borderling Premier League players.

There is a tendancy on this board to overestimate the US and particulalry the MLS In my opinion. I routinely grant that the US has better depth than us and a much better infrastructure as well. That is why loosing player from the top end is such a problem for us. Josh Simpson is replacing either Canizles or Klukowski on the left flank. Now I think Josh has potential, but he is out of his depth at this level. Of the U-20s, only Hutchinson and Hume are able to compete effectively at this level.

Take a look at this line up and compare it to the one that started last night

Olivieri

Nsaliwa Opong Hutchinson Marshall

Placentino DeGuzman Dunfield Klukowski

Hume Canizales

There is no comparison. The one above is considerably stronger and in my opinion.

I have watched a lot of soccer over the years. There is no question that a fit well organized team can compete, particularly if they have some speed. In my opinion this explains a lot of the success the US have had at all levels. Only 3 or 4 Canadian players able to compete with their american counterparts? Sorry, but I think you are wrong on this.

I don't think the American's will qualify for the Olympics. Their back line is too weak. I do think they will qualify for the World Cup - they have too easy a draw and too much depth not to finish top four in the hex. But lets remember that they have never won the hex, and that Costa Rica, a nation of what 5 million, has no trouble competing with them.

I believe you are in for a pleasant surprise in the next WCQ, Free Kick. But only if we can get most of out top players for any given match.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

From the USSF game report:

"Unlike Tuesday night's three-goal letdown after quickly posting a 3-0 lead over Panama, the U.S. calmly preserved the lead and played the game out with steady possession and solid individual defending to keep Canada off the board. In fact, although Canada outshot the U.S. 10-8, only two were on target, with defender Nat Borchers clearing a ball a step in front of D.J. Countess on the goalline and Countess making the other save himself."

Here's what the US coach had to say:

"Canada is always a very hard team to play against. They're very physical; they work very hard and one of their main objectives in the game is to stop you from playing. I felt like our team did a good job of battling them in terms of all the air balls that they like to pump into our box. I thought we were very good in the air in the back. The difference in the game was our quickness in the counter-attack and our ability to run at people and create goal-scoring chances. As you saw, we're happy to win the game 2-0, but we had four or five excellent chances as well."

And Landon Donovan had this to say (translated from Spanish):

"Donovan said his team played much better [than Canada], and that it was a very easy game ... he commented that from now on, the games would be much more difficult, now that they'll have to face opponents who play at a far better level than Panama and Canada."

This is the extra part of the frustration (and yes, I think were all ticked off, actually) is the fact that we are trying to discuss what happened based entirely on 3rd party reports. However I'm not really inclined to take obviously biased pieces of US propaganda seriously. The fact that the article writer felt the need to qualify the fact that Canada out-shot the US (and neglects to mention a shot that went off the post & cross-bar) sums up how seriously we should take these articles. Donovan has a prior history of disrespectful comments about Canada, so those barbs don't surprise me. We'll remember them however.

Outside of the other un-biased report that I've posted elsewhere which paints a different story, here's another from the AP which suggests Canada outplayed the US for the first third of the match - not that you'll read about that from the USSF (maybe one day we'll get a Canadian perspective as well):

ZAPOPAN, Mexico (AP) - The United States moved within one victory of qualifying for the Olympics as Bobby Convey scored twice on passes from Landon Donovan in a 2-0 victory over Canada on Thursday night.

The Americans must win their semifinal game against either Costa Rica or Mexico on Tuesday to qualify for Athens.

Honduras earlier beat Pamana 3-1 to also make the semifinals.

The losses ended any possibility of a first Olympic soccer tournament for Canada or Panama.

Canada repeatedly found holes in the U.S. defense during the early going, while the U.S. attack seemed uncoordinated.

But at 29 minutes, Convey took a pass from Donovan, raced a few steps and fired an 18-yard shot that sliced to the right and past Canadian goalkeeper Andrew Olivieri.

Momentum seemed to shift, with the Canadians playing further back and the United States recovering its passing touch.

Donovan and Convey teamed on the other score at 70 minutes, Donovan on the right wing passing to Convey, who was heading almost straight at the goal.

__________________

Of course who knows how seriously we should take this

[Gian-Luca]

One thing to clarify - out of the 3 quoted comments the one from the coach sounds the most believable, especially as Friend was apparently playing as a target-forward, but I've already stated elsewhere that I am not exactly thrilled about going with a lone striker in a game we need to win.

[Gian-Luca]

If anyone is interested, here is the original Prima Donovan article in Spanish. Whoever did the original translation left out what appears to be a qualification of what he said (though I don't speak Spanish, I can guess what the line about Adam Braz is getting at):

Con respecto al partido en que Estados Unidos venció a Canadá 2-0, el atacante dijo que su equipo jugó mucho mejor y que fue un juego muy fácil, principalmente luego de la expulsión de Adam Braz al minuto 71.

Comentó que a partir de este momento, los partidos serán mucho más complicados, ya que los equipos a los que se tendrán que enfrentar tienen mucho mejor nivel que Panamá y Canadá.

_____________________

Regardless, to paraphrase a line from Office Space, he's still a no-class ass clown.

[Gian-Luca]

If anyone is interested, here is the original Prima Donovan article in Spanish. Whoever did the original translation left out what appears to be a qualification of what he said (though I don't speak Spanish, I can guess what the line about Adam Braz is getting at):

Con respecto al partido en que Estados Unidos venció a Canadá 2-0, el atacante dijo que su equipo jugó mucho mejor y que fue un juego muy fácil, principalmente luego de la expulsión de Adam Braz al minuto 71.

Comentó que a partir de este momento, los partidos serán mucho más complicados, ya que los equipos a los que se tendrán que enfrentar tienen mucho mejor nivel que Panamá y Canadá.

_____________________

Regardless, to paraphrase a line from Office Space, he's still a no-class ass clown.

[Gian-Luca]

After today's match, I don't think we need even wait for him to resign. Whatever we do for 2008 lets go with somebody that brings a positive winning attitude (& if possible, a better history of it).

[Guest Ed]

I'd take a dozen such "no class ass clowns" over the ass-splashers we're sending out on the field.

[Guest Dave]

I'm glad Yallop was there in person in Mexico to witness this national disgrace. At least now he has seen first hand what we're up against, and hopefully he'll have a chance to stem the rot before WCQ.

[Guest Ed]

With the 'no class ass clown' and a host of usual starters on the bench, the USA is leading Honduras 4-3 late. They were up 3-1 and Honduras has had a bit of a come back.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

With the 'no class ass clown' and a host of usual starters on the bench, the USA is leading Honduras 4-3 late. They were up 3-1 and Honduras has had a bit of a come back.

Honduras has also emptied the bench for this game. The US has been down a man for some time. I think Honduras is playing to not face Mexico [8D].

[Reza]

Ed..You're quick to pick languages :-)...you seem to have mastered Finnish pretty good :-)

[Guest Dave]

If the US wins this game and faces Mexico, it means that either CR or Honduras qualifies for the Olympics. It's possible that the WCQ semifinal match between Canada and whoever qualifies for Olympics between C Rica and Hond will fall on the date in August that conflicts with the Olympics, hence Canada may have a small advantage in one critical WCQ game this summer.

Now I understand Twamley's strategy. [8D]

How's that for stretching for a silver lining?

[Gian-Luca]

The actual quote from the movie is "no talent ass clown", in reference to Michael Bolton. Since I acknowledge that the kid has considerable talent, I decided to change the quote. And since the kid has no class (regardless of where his father is from) I'm glad to see that the accurate quote is sticking.

[Reza]

No I was refering to the term ass-splasher actually which I think our Finnish friend used quite frequently.

[Gian-Luca]

The No Class Ass Clown strikes again! Hilarious stuff.

Donovan Tinkles on Mexican Stadium Field - Mexicans Pissed

http://www.mural.com/deportes/articulo/347947/

AltaVista Translation:

Guadalajara, Mexico (10 February 2004). - Nobody puts in doubt the soccer quality of the American forward Landon Donovan, nevertheless, Monday to noon demonstrated that its quality as person leaves much to be desired. For number 10 of the equipment of the United States, it was easier to put itself to tinkle within the field of the Jalisco Stage that to lower to the vestidor, which was to a few meters of where the ram made its grace. The fact happened during the recognition of the field of the Jalisco on the part of the American picture. In a while in that Donovan pretended to fasten the stiffnesses of its shoes to a side of the shrubs that are in one of the bands of the game land, simply lowered the front part of its pantaloncillos and began to tinkle in the field, being left to see the little education on which the captain of the set of the United States counts. The forward, after demonstrating that the fact to come from a country of first world is not synonymous of civic culture or education, simple and simply I rise to continue with the route which they did on grama of the twice mundialista one, Jalisco Stage. This without a doubt dims to the American delegation, which in appearance habia had an impeccable behavior during which estadia in Guadalajara goes of his.

From another article:

"Por si esto fuera poco, ayer Donovan orinó sobre el césped del estadio Jalisco, en donde hoy enfrentará a México por un lugar en los Juegos Olímpicos de Atenas.

Basically, Landon declared that we were going to avenge the loss by the US Olympic baseball team by beating the U-23's, and if this wasn't enough, he then took a piss on the Jalisco Stadium Field.

[DJT]

Please continue discussion about Donovan in the thread Gian-Luca started in the General Discussion section:

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2336