MikeD Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 This theory was suggested to me earlier today by a co-worker who coaches girls' soccer, and I think I agree with it. A lot of coaches who use 4-4-2 like to have a so-called "big defender" who can dominate in the air and a so-called "quick defender" to handle the opposition's speedier attackers. Holger may be following this approach, with DeVos as his "big defender" and Fenwick as his "quick defender." Fenwick has taken over this role ever since Menezes fell off the rader screen. This hadn't occured to me before, but it makes sense. In theory, I can't disagree with the principle of having at least one quick defender on the pitch when you're facing a team with good fast strikers and you have to admit that Fenwick, for all his faults, is quite quick for a defender. Pizzolitto, McKenna and Rogers all fit more into the "big man" role, which DeVos rightfully has locked up for the time being. If this is indeed what Holger is thinking (and it certainly fits Holger's personality to follow an axiom like this dogmatically), then I really hope Menezes comes back to form in time for World Cup qualifying. Otherwise, I'd like to see Holger experiment with Pozniak, Hastings or even Dasovic in this role, to give us another option besides Fenwick. I've never seen Reda play before - would Holger see Reda as more or a "big defender" or a "quick defender"? Mike D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reza Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Yeah..It's not just Fenwick that's bad. The entire Canadian defence is too slow. They need one or two speedy guys in there who also have composure and can distribute the ball. Well we have about 8 months to find that person! Reza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancouver Fan Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Who knows if Holger has even seen Reda play.Its hard to figure what this man is thinking.Most of us here had written Fenwick off after Scotland but yet Holger continues to favor him over Menezes who most of us feel is the better man.After Cuba you have to look at another Holger favorite in Hastings and wonder if he can do the job.As long as he's in charge and the one being paid to make the decisions we have to used to the fact that his choices are not going to always be popular ones.I'd like to see Jeff Clark get another chance maybe in Fenwicks role as the so called "quick defender". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Vancouver Fan Who knows if Holger has even seen Reda play.Its hard to figure what this man is thinking.Most of us here had written Fenwick off after Scotland but yet Holger continues to favor him over Menezes who most of us feel is the better man.After Cuba you have to look at another Holger favorite in Hastings and wonder if he can do the job.As long as he's in charge and the one being paid to make the decisions we have to used to the fact that his choices are not going to always be popular ones.I'd like to see Jeff Clark get another chance maybe in Fenwicks role as the so called "quick defender". If Menezes can find a more decent club, we might see him back in the fold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Yeah, that sounds about right. I don't know about quick. Quicker than JDV anyway. And he's big. And he's good in the air (when he's on his game). And he can be physical. And he can be mean. But like just about everyone else we usually see on the back line you know no counter attack is begining with Paul Fenwick except if in a fit he hoofs it up field in some striker's general direction. Tony had some good games as a sweeper. Sure wish that China misadventure had never happened. He'd have looked damn good back there again. Thought Pozniak had a pretty good game. He certainly plays the game a lot better in his head than on the pitch. That's ment as a compliment. His physical abilities belong in the 1st division but his mental game, reads, anticipation & understanding blah, blah, blah, look to be at a higher level. Of course, he had an involved Bent & Imhoff on his side saturday helping out. "Minority of one" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Relative to the central defenders on top national teams, Fenwick is not quick or fast. I think Holger likes experience.. and has compromised speed to get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 It is not supposed to be big and quick, at least as I see it. It should really be one big defender who can handle the air, and another with technique to play out of the back. Technique players are often better defending along the ground and bigger ones in the air. Speed, well you always want speed, if both are slow you have problems. There are plenty of good central defenders around who are not fast, indeed some of the best ever have not been, but their anticipation and positioning has made them what they are. Another key is vision of play, knowing how to read a game in the positive sense, not just clear the ball out of the area and rest, but create the attack from the back and know how to go forward when needed. Canada does not have as I see it a central defender with vision who can play the ball out of the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted July 17, 2003 Author Share Posted July 17, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. It is not supposed to be big and quick, at least as I see it. It should really be one big defender who can handle the air, and another with technique to play out of the back. Technique players are often better defending along the ground and bigger ones in the air. Speed, well you always want speed, if both are slow you have problems. There are plenty of good central defenders around who are not fast, indeed some of the best ever have not been, but their anticipation and positioning has made them what they are. Another key is vision of play, knowing how to read a game in the positive sense, not just clear the ball out of the area and rest, but create the attack from the back and know how to go forward when needed. Canada does not have as I see it a central defender with vision who can play the ball out of the back. I think your theory makes more sense Jeffrey S. I was simply proposing what I think to be a plausible theory for Holger always playing Fenwick. I don't think the technique in Fenwick's forte, although we did have that with the Menezes/DeVos combo. Long-term, I'd still like to see Pozniak groomed to be DeVos' defence partner, although I'm not sure if Poz is up to the task quite yet (ideally, he'll also move to a better league than Sweden's sometime in the next couple of years.) In the meantime, we'd all better hope that Menezes resurfaces somewhere because Holger sure isn't going to use Jeff Clarke in central defence (not that I think it would be a bad idea to give him a crack at it, I just don't think Holger will do that.) Mike D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 quote:Originally posted by MikeD I think your theory makes more sense Jeffrey S. I was simply proposing what I think to be a plausible theory for Holger always playing Fenwick. I don't think the technique in Fenwick's forte, although we did have that with the Menezes/DeVos combo. Long-term, I'd still like to see Pozniak groomed to be DeVos' defence partner, although I'm not sure if Poz is up to the task quite yet (ideally, he'll also move to a better league than Sweden's sometime in the next couple of years.) In the meantime, we'd all better hope that Menezes resurfaces somewhere because Holger sure isn't going to use Jeff Clarke in central defence (not that I think it would be a bad idea to give him a crack at it, I just don't think Holger will do that.) Mike D I think its Klukowski myself. Decent height, played Centre back with the youth team in France, plays left back in Belgium - suggesting a modicom of speed - and played midfield for Canada, and showed a wee bit O' skill while doing it. Given that pretty much everyone we dress is a left back (Brennan now a mid wearing 11 with Norwich, but Jazic Pozniak, Hastings, Klukowski and potentially DeGuzman are all left backs with their club teams) and we are reasonably well off in midfield, why not? Start now, however. DeVos and Nsaliwa are 1/2 of a decent back line. Not sure what is happening with Tony Menezes...surely he can't have lost it? Left back, despite the plethora of players, is potentially a trouble spot also. I feel more confident in Pozniak than Hastings and who the heck knows about Jazic. I'd love to see him get a run out for Canada. If only to see if he is any good. But the partner for DeVos is a real problem if Tony can't "come back", and we are extremely thin there even if he does. Similarly at right back, although if Holger repairs things with Aguiar and/or Bircham, this allows Imhoff (who plays right back with St. Gallen I believe), and Bent to provide some depth. Also, If Pizzolitto showed well in training as the Davidson article suggests, why the heck did Holger not give him a go against Cuba? Hastings may make a better contribution as a back-up to Brennan at Left half and a deep cover defensive mid than he does as 1st or 2nd at Left back. Clealry, however, Canada has to audition some centre backs. Pizzolitto, Reda, Klukowski for sure. The opinions expressed above are just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 To Gordon mostly, I like this kind of thread by the way. You may be right about Fenwick, but I am afraid there is another thing there: loyalty. Holger seems to need players that support him, and this is a mutual thing. Fenwick has always showed up for Canada, Holger appreciates that. About quickness: I think you can have it or not in the middle (better with it), but there is no excuse not to have it on the sides defending. Speed is not everything outside, knowing how to hold sure helps, but getting burned on the sides is a real problem since the opposing wing can get a cross in quickly and speedy strikers can get a step on almost all central defenders unless they are very fast. Germany picked us apart in the end for this reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Jeffrey.. Nothing is ever one dimensional. But I am sure you would agree that you wouldn't have played DeVos next to Ronald Koeman in Barcelona.. I think the key, more than anything, is complimentarity between central defenders. So you will find cover for a slow defender and you will find a big defender if you have a short one you want to play.. And you always want some ball skill somewhere.. quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. It is not supposed to be big and quick, at least as I see it. It should really be one big defender who can handle the air, and another with technique to play out of the back. Technique players are often better defending along the ground and bigger ones in the air. Speed, well you always want speed, if both are slow you have problems. There are plenty of good central defenders around who are not fast, indeed some of the best ever have not been, but their anticipation and positioning has made them what they are. Another key is vision of play, knowing how to read a game in the positive sense, not just clear the ball out of the area and rest, but create the attack from the back and know how to go forward when needed. Canada does not have as I see it a central defender with vision who can play the ball out of the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Georgio Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Another key element is the communication which aligns itself with what Jeffrey was saying about vision and reading the play. This is something that may have prevented the first goal by Cuba when one of the players (Fenwick or Devos)could have seen the breakdown in play and anticipated it. That's part of the reason why I blame the Fenwick or Devos for that goal whereas it was the midfielders fault for the breakdown, it was the fullbacks who did not react nearly quick enough. Short term pre tourny preperation with no true warmup friendlies doesn't help that either though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. To Gordon mostly, I like this kind of thread by the way. You may be right about Fenwick, but I am afraid there is another thing there: loyalty. Holger seems to need players that support him, and this is a mutual thing. Fenwick has always showed up for Canada, Holger appreciates that. Yes I agree that this is the case. Loyalty and I think an overvaluation on experience. It concerns me because I think that we have the players to show real well in qualifying, and with 4 spots, make it to germany. But Selections concern me, as well as the endless rumours of player rifts with Holger, and the no shows, like Jazic, Aguiar, Radzinski, and even Bircham, either through their choice or Holger's. One of two things has to happen, and happen soon: Holger steps down, or he changes his spots in a hurry. I understand, and sympathize, with the difficulties he faces in getting players out. But he exacerbates matter with his style and demeanor and it is something we just can't afford. The opinions expressed above are just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje Jeffrey.. Nothing is ever one dimensional. But I am sure you would agree that you wouldn't have played DeVos next to Ronald Koeman in Barcelona.. I think the key, more than anything, is complimentarity between central defenders. So you will find cover for a slow defender and you will find a big defender if you have a short one you want to play.. And you always want some ball skill somewhere.. How did you know I was thinking about Koeman? Holland is the model for this kind of play, learnt from Ajax's great days, and of course Barça has followed and even abused this model by excessively moving the ball short and never using the long ball, though Ronald could certainly do that too (great long passes our left to charging Stoichkov back when he was really fast). I am also thinking about other fine central defenders, like Blanc or Popescu, who also played here. Even Hierro has been great and slow, though lately he was more slow than great. But that is age catching up with him. The repeated image of de Vos booting the ball up the field has always bugged me. I think that if a coach decides that the ball should be played out and tells the defender to do so (play to the outside defender opening up wide, or to the open midfielder coming back to meet the pass), he can learn to do so. You tell de Vos to do this, train the team to play that way, and I am sure he could handle it. Maybe Fenwick could not, but that is a question of pure skill level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 And Holland used Rijkaard for cover... speed and size.. with some skill too.. Speaking of Koeman, would be a great replacement for Holger only we can't afford him... You can be sure he would kick some butt.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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