Miklos Feher of Benfica Passes Away during match

[Grizzly]

There are certain soccer officials that believe that clubs are playing too many games. While I do not disagree and would like to see UEFA and Intertoto replaced by a Cup Winner's Cup to give them some significance, I think it is offensive that this death is being used for this purpose. Feher was a seldom used substitute for Benefica so it is pretty hard to blame his death on fixture congestion. This is just opportunism by certain officials to promote their viewpoint.

[DJT]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I think it is offensive that this death is being used for this purpose. Feher was a seldom used substitute for Benefica so it is pretty hard to blame his death on fixture congestion. This is just opportunism by certain officials to promote their viewpoint.

YES! THANK YOU! I had started writing a post that began with that very sentiment, but I didn't have time to finish it so I decided to wait, but now you beat me to it. I, too, find it horrible that this tragedy is being used in this way. The same thing happened with Marc-Vivien Foé: at first there were many complaints about fixture congestion, but, like Fehér, Foé hadn't even played very much, and of course after it was discovered that his death was attributable to a life-long problem no one talked about fixture congestion anymore! The way these tragedies are blamed on fixture congestion is completely unscientific. Why don't the politicians shut up and let the scientists and doctors handle this.

In terms of reducing fixture congestion, the UEFA Cup is irrelevant. The UEFA Cup runs parallel to the Champions League and does not overlap with it (ie. no one participates in the UEFA Cup at the same time as the Champions League) and involves essentially the same number of matches, so if the Champions League does not impose too many fixtures on its participants than neither does the UEFA Cup on its participants.

Elimination of the UEFA Cup for sporting reasons (ie. "what is the point of this tournament, anyway?") is a different story. However, I still like this tournament because there are so many good teams in Europe and they're not all participating in the Champions League every year. By the time you get to the final stages of the UEFA Cup it is just as interesting as the Champions League. Yes, it could use a trimming down in the early stages. Next season the format will be different, so we'll see how that goes.

The argument that the UEFA Cup is meaningless because the Champions League already determines the best team in Europe doesn't work with me. This is mainly because I disagree that the Champions League determines the best team in Europe. Why is Milan the best team in Europe, just because they beat Juventus on a crap shoot (PKs) after a 120-minute draw for which Juventus were missing their best player (Nedved)? How can Milan be the best team in Europe (and amacpher claims the world) while Juventus is the best team in Italy? Isn't that paradoxical? Maybe it's just me but in general I don't view any given competition (league or cup, long or short, any sport) as determining an absolute best team. To me a competition determines a winner, or a best team in the competition if you will, but that's it, it does not determine an absolute best team. (I claim it is impossible to determine an absolute best team.)

So I'm fine with the UEFA Cup all around. However, I agree with those who prefer a revival of the Cup Winners' Cup, because it makes even more sense in sporting terms. But this change is the unlikeliest of scenarios right now.

Certainly the Intertoto Cup can go, but I don't think this really affects fixture congestion, either. I think the three clubs that win the Intertoto usually use secondary and youth players (I know that's what the Italian clubs do) who won't play much during in the following league and UEFA Cup competitions. All the other Intertoto clubs are knocked out in June or July and don't see any other European action for the rest of the year, so all they've got left are league and domestic cup games.

I continue to maintain that excessively large leagues are the main problem for fixture congestion. Dropping from 20 to 16 teams means a reduction of 8 matches. 8 matches is more than the Confederations Cup (plus, those 8 matches are played every year, not every two years), more than the World Club Championship (which would also not be every year), more than half of the Champions League/UEFA Cup (plus, those 8 matches are played by every team while most Champions League/UEFA Cup teams won't reach that many in these competitions, and those that do are usually the elite teams and thus have more depth). And dropping 8 matches from the league schedule has no negative effect in sporting terms; in fact, I think it would have a positive effect (ie. greater parity). amacpher is right when he says that this just won't happen, but I really wish the clubs would just come out and admit it's all about the money they stand to lose, because the other arguments just don't hold water.

So as I've said before, ideally there should be a cap of 16 clubs/30 matches (note to Olsson: no one ever said the Scandinavian countries have to have 16 teams, 16 is a maximum), or 18/34 if need be. And get rid of extraneous domestic cups, bring back the Club World Championship, blah, blah, blah, we've been through this all before and we already know we don't all agree...

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by DJT

In terms of reducing fixture congestion, the UEFA Cup is irrelevant. The UEFA Cup runs parallel to the Champions League and does not overlap with it (ie. no one participates in the UEFA Cup at the same time as the Champions League) and involves essentially the same number of matches, so if the Champions League does not impose too many fixtures on its participants than neither does the UEFA Cup on its participants.

Except the Champions' League teams have generally deeper squads than UEFA Cup teams. The Man Utd's and Arsenals don't have to field the same 11 players for every match that they play. Unlike, say, Man City.

quote:Originally posted by DJT

The argument that the UEFA Cup is meaningless because the Champions League already determines the best team in Europe doesn't work with me. This is mainly because I disagree that the Champions League determines the best team in Europe. Why is Milan the best team in Europe, just because they beat Juventus on a crap shoot (PKs) after a 120-minute draw for which Juventus were missing their best player (Nedved)? How can Milan be the best team in Europe (and amacpher claims the world) while Juventus is the best team in Italy? Isn't that paradoxical? Maybe it's just me but in general I don't view any given competition (league or cup, long or short, any sport) as determining an absolute best team. To me a competition determines a winner, or a best team in the competition if you will, but that's it, it does not determine an absolute best team. (I claim it is impossible to determine an absolute best team.)

Hmmm... interesting take. But I still think that domestic championships do determine the best team in each country. EVery team has the same schedule and essentially the same players for a 9 month stretch. It's not like North American sports where you can play terrible for 6 months, then aquire a bunch of new players with 4 weeks left in the season, get hot for those last 4 weeks and win a championship! I think Juventus were the best team in Italy last year. And Milan were the best team in Europe. European football is different than Italian football which is different from English football, etc. etc. etc... Therefore I think you can be the best in Europe and not necessarily the best in Italy or wherever... Man Utd. right now is a perfect example. They have what it takes to win in England even though Arsenal looks to be the best team in Europe.

[argh1]

First of all, it is sad , that it takes a young mans' death to bring this issue to the fore-front.

I will try to form my thoughts( unusual for me as it is)UEFA and FIFA were formed by the national association , not the other way around.

Fixture congestion really only effects the top 3-5 clubs in any domestic league. To say Birmingham City or Aston Villa have a congestion problem is a stretch.

But it is these top 3-5 teams , that folk want to see. So what can be the answer.Does any-one not want to see Arsenal, ManU or Liverpool in the FA CUP,LEAGUE CUP ( I will use the EPL , as that is what I am most familiar) The top international players , tend to gravitate towards these top teams , for exposure and financial reasons.Thus adding to the congestion problems.

Is it fair to tell the mid-table teams downwards that they have less games to satisfy the needs of the top 3-5 teams?

Is it fair to domestic fans , to say , that CUP that you guys go wild over won't be held , to satisfy the needs of the top 3-5 teams?

Maybe it is UEFA,and FIFA , that have added too many games?

But , yet....we , the fans want to see Champions League, UEFA CUP, WORLD CUP, WORLD CLUB CUP,INTER-CONTINENTAL CUP, etc.

I ( and as I sit in my basement ,on a computer , in no name city, in the Soccer power that is CANADA, have an opinion) believe the only answer is to remove the top 3-5 teams , use the UEFA co-efficient rankings, from domestic leagues. They can still play in domestic cups, all that would change is instead of a Champions League , we would have the chance to see our top teams play each other 40 times a year in league competion. Details, I'm sure can be worked out.

Radical , I know, but it is only the top 3-5 teams that really suffer from fixture congestion.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by argh1

believe the only answer is to remove the top 3-5 teams , use the UEFA co-efficient rankings, from domestic leagues. They can still play in domestic cups, all that would change is instead of a Champions League , we would have the chance to see our top teams play each other 40 times a year in league competion. Details, I'm sure can be worked out.

Radical , I know, but it is only the top 3-5 teams that really suffer from fixture congestion.

I was agreeing with your post until that last “radical” idea! Yes, that would eliminate fixture congestion. It would also free-up a lot of my time since I would stop watching Euro football altogether! I list 2 big qualities of Champions League that help make it as good as it is (granted, there might be more):

A) There are only 13 matchdays. So almost every game is important. Your proposal would wipe-out this quality.

Seeing 2 powerhouses play who we rarely get to see play each other. Your proposal also wipes-out this quality since they will play each other every season.

Basically, your proposed Super-league or whatever you wanna call it, would just act like a currently- existing domestic league, except without the history/tradition, local derbies and crowd atmosphere (since there will be little to no away-supporters sections). And your super-league would come at the expense of every top domestic league in Europe.