G Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 Dick is on the Executive Committee of the CSA Board of Directors. His title is Director: Technical. Here is his reply to my e-mail. Dear Mr. Spence, I acknowledge receipt of your message. I am sure you will understand that I cannot and will not indulge in any discussion of this nature. Any further communication from you will, I am afraid, go unanswered. Sincerely, Dick Labrom. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoff Spence" <geoffspence@hotmail.com> To: <rlabrom@videotron.ca> Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 11:23 PM Subject: Kevan Pipe > Dear Mr. Labrom > > I want to take a moment and let you know of my extreme disappointment and > frustration with our Men's National Soccer Team and with the direction it's > headed. Year after year I put faith in this team and the CSA, and year > after year I am let down. We are on the brink of being eliminated from the > world cup...........again. If we fail to qualify for Germany, it will be 20 > years and counting since our last appearance. I believe would should be a > stronger soccer nation. We have the participation of thousands of > individuals in the sport, in fact more people are registered for soccer in > this country than are registered in hockey. However, we can't turn this > into a successful soccer program. I ask you and the Board of Directors at > the CSA to get rid of Kevan Pipe. So many years of failure have to come > with a price. Mr. Pipe's time has come. We need change and we must start > at the top. > > I look forward to your reply, > > Geoff Spence > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luis_Rancagua Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 Right-on man!!! I'm very surprised that you got a response from the CSA. As for me, they try to avoid my e-mails or mails as much as possible. Then again, everyone that works at the CSA are nothing but a gang of incompetent twits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutcy Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 At least you got a reply on your letter.I have been reading with interest many people's frustrations and disapointments on the status of soccer in this country.I am also disillusioned,but then again like most gov. agencies or most organizations the deadwood, and the old boys clubs seem to prevail.The CSA and OSA is not an exception to that rule.The OSA has been criticized for the longest time for their provincial program and the money and time they put into selecting 11 year olds, making them beleive that they will be the future National prospects, thus by the age of 14 and 15 many of those kids aren't even around playing soccer. Many get burned out and many get turned off by the BS and politics of the program. Instead of keeping more and more talented players in the game we cut them, eliminate them and discourage them. Many talented players don't even participate in these regional and provincial programs, so in many cases the OSA and CSA still go on bragging how they have selected the best players when in reality, it is only those whose parents buy into the sales pitch that if they go through the program they have a good chance to play for the National Team.Now with this type of mentality and false pretense,are we as a country ever going to produce anything that the rest of the soccer nations would even take serious? In order to fix a problem,we have to identify the problem, and I personally believe we have to send strong messages to the OSA and CSA that this level of propaganda must end. We should let them know that money be spend on youth development and not on their All Star Nationals and to see which province can bring the most trophies back home. What does it benefit that Ontario beats PEI 12-0,every year? if the OSA wants to put an Ontario team together it should not take all that money and time and energy. Look at this new proposal the OSA is doing this year; will train 13 year olds 4 days a week thus disallowing them to play for any club, from Oct-May, Hello!!! how is this going to improve our National team.Changes are brought upon by becoming proactive and it is great many of us have started to write to them and let them know how we feel. However if we be more specific, I think only then we can expect changes. The National teams have no depth, obviously because we don't have enough experienced players in North America. And flying players around the world is not how a country goes about building a National team. So when we write letters to express discontent, I think we should also be asking them to change their structure of play and put out there professional type of coaches where they can actually train the youth. By having an infrastrucure that develops the youth into senior players, we can only hope for something better than what we have now. Just my thoughts on hoping to bring some changes with the OSA and CSA through a massive letter writing campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Free kick I had to read your post a few times in order to fully grasp what your getting at. Correct me me if I am wrong, but you are against an idea whereby a provincial soccer governing body takes the most promising young players and has them train together for long periods in an elite environment. then you say: " that money be spend on youth development and not on their All Star Nationals". Well aren't All star nationals what Youth development is all about. What is the alternative, Doling out the cash to the clubs. How does that provide a return on investmenst for the CSA/OSA?. Rather, you are in favour of leaving player with their clubs. What I don't get is: why will your idea make us any better as a soccer nation? How in the world does your idea help national team coaches identify promising talent if its not through the provincial all-star teams? you think that they should all be left to their clubs and make the task of the national team(s)selectors more difficult. Then you are saying that they should put out there professional type coaches to train the youth. Well isn't elite level ( eg.: provicial and national) where you will find usually the best coaches? So isn't this contradictory? If you want an infrstructure that develops youth into professionals, then isn't this what they are doing by training promising 13 year olds 4 days a week? Aside from the a-league clubs we don't have an club structure in canada compared to the rest of the world and maybe thats why the soccer organization must take a greater proportion of the player development initiative. Whereas in other developed soccer nations, the pro clubs are doing the exact same thing. So what wrong with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutcy Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 No I don't believe the OSA and CSA should be in the business of developing players. Why? Simply because the system has not proven to be bringing any changes to the Mens'National teams,therefore it has not improved our status in comparison to other nations. When something is tried over and over again and is unsuccesful there has to be some modifications. How long do we have to wait to figure it out, maybe another 30 years or so.There is a lot of talent at the young ages of 11,and 12 but somehow that is not indicative when we get to the senior level to compete. Do you actually think that the provincial and national programs with only developing 20-25 players can sustain teams for the mens's National team. Do I want our elite players developed by their clubs? Ideally that should be the way,isn't that how most soccer nations develope their players. Unfortunately our clubs are run by the moms and dads and many coaches have certified over a weekend. But are the governing bodies doing anything on that important aspect.This is where the change needs to occur. Implement a model, even something similar to that of the Ontario Hockey league where every district can monitor the level of coaching, budget, scouting players etc. if the other provinces implement same model we can increase the competetion among more elite players, challenge our youth. This would bring exposure to the sport, attract media,and believe it not sponsors. Free kick, if you were a National coach would you not rather have a large pool of players to choose from domestically, plus the best of the international ones. So to conclude the governing bodies are to govern administer and promote the sport. The development has to be left to professionals. The Whitecaps have a great system for their youth in the SYL, so is the Furry, and well the Lynx are kind of trying. Nothing wrong with that picture for now, but those programs are being looked down by those in the OSA and CSA windows and those players are not even considered for any of the National Training program. So this is why we have to become proactive and forget the old provincial programs in hope to build our National teams. By the way those programs are serioulsy flawed in their player selection as they are run by the same old boys school mentality. So if Canadians want to see the men's team do better than in the past, must define the root of the problem, and one is implementing a proper sysytem of development for the youth, which would translate in more numbers of skilled players later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 quote:Originally posted by dutcy No I don't believe the OSA and CSA should be in the business of developing players. Why? Simply because the system has not proven to be bringing any changes to the Mens'National teams,therefore it has not improved our status in comparison to other nations. Well if the OSA and CSA shouldn't be in the business of developing players. Then who the hell will? The A-league clubs? well only 2 out of five are successful financially and playing in a USA sevcond divison. They are doing a pretty good job. But right now can they do it all on their own just yet? Do you really belive that the other hundreds of tiny little clubs around canada have the means and resources to develop players like clubs in Europe? quote:Originally posted by dutcy When something is tried over and over again and is unsuccesful there has to be some modifications. How long do we have to wait to figure it out, maybe another 30 years or so.There is a lot of talent at the young ages of 11,and 12 but somehow that is not indicative when we get to the senior level to compete. Do you actually think that the provincial and national programs with only developing 20-25 players can sustain teams for the mens's National team. Great!!!, so what you are proposing is that instaed of developing 20-25 players for the national teams. You are saying, lets develop ZERO players for the national teams. quote:Originally posted by dutcy Do I want our elite players developed by their clubs? Ideally that should be the way,isn't that how most soccer nations develope their players. Unfortunately our clubs are run by the moms and dads and many coaches have certified over a weekend. But are the governing bodies doing anything on that important aspect.This is where the change needs to occur. Implement a model, even something similar to that of the Ontario Hockey league where every district can monitor the level of coaching, budget, scouting players etc. if the other provinces implement same model we can increase the competetion among more elite players, challenge our youth. This would bring exposure to the sport, attract media,and believe it not sponsors. Free kick, if you were a National coach would you not rather have a large pool of players to choose from domestically, plus the best of the international ones. So to conclude the governing bodies are to govern administer and promote the sport. The development has to be left to professionals. The Whitecaps have a great system for their youth in the SYL, so is the Furry, and well the Lynx are kind of trying. Nothing wrong with that picture for now, but those programs are being looked down by those in the OSA and CSA windows and those players are not even considered for any of the National Training program. So this is why we have to become proactive and forget the old provincial programs in hope to build our National teams. By the way those programs are serioulsy flawed in their player selection as they are run by the same old boys school mentality. So if Canadians want to see the men's team do better than in the past, must define the root of the problem, and one is implementing a proper sysytem of development for the youth, which would translate in more numbers of skilled players later on. But you cannot get a large pool of players to choose from unless you have more pro teams teams. And the pro teams have to be at high enough level so that players are able to compete with the best. You answered my concern all along when you say: " that the moms and dads and many coaches have certified over a weekend". Plus, when you are putting 11 players on the pitch to play CRC or Honduras do you want these teams to be comprised of players that are previously coached by Moms and dads who cannot differente between soccer and hockey? I don't get here. Its seems you are contradicting yourself. then you say : " Implement a model, even something similar to that of the Ontario Hockey league where every district can monitor the level of coaching, budget, scouting players etc. if the other provinces implement same model we can increase the competetion among more elite players, challenge our youth. This would bring exposure to the sport, attract media,and believe it not sponsors . But how will that attract more sponsors and Media!!!!!. The media can't find time to cover the lynx for crying out load, why would they be interested in and even lower level of competition. I just completely fail to see a cause and effect here. Then you say : " we must implement a proper sysytem of development for the youth, which would translate in more numbers of skilled players later on". I don't get it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutcy Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 What part of putting a proper infrastructure you don't get. You have already admitted that the clubs are not equipped to develop our players,let alone the most talented ones.So this is the reason why we have governing bodies to identify the sources of the problems and try to correct them. Yes, we all know Canada ranks 99, and we all know that our club systems are mediocre so what is anybody doing about this? Picking a handfull of players at 11 years of age and then discard them when new crops come in every fall, is not going to solve our problems. Like I said above ,this system has not worked for so many years, let's try something more productive, mot just a quick fix. Initially my idea was that if people want to write to the CSA or any governing body, about our level of soccer in this country, they should point out some of the reasons why our National teams have no depth, one of them being lack of youth develoment, as well as the pro teams you mentioned.With regards to your concerns about getting media exposure and sponsors, this can be achieved but the governing bodies have to have a plan with vision and at the moment there is none. As long as people are content with the present system, and think that after all those players registered in the sport we can come up with a few players to show for, there is definitely something wrong. By the way in most countries players get called up for world events, by the National coaches,I don't think the governing bodies spent their time and money trying to develop a few 11 year olds, hoping they will be the same people when they are older. Free Kick, you might need to look into the system a little closer, where many talented 15 year and 16 year olds would never be considered part of the National training program simply because they were not identified at the younger age of 11 and did not go through some pretentious selection regional system, followed by some quasi provincial follow up followed by some annual inter provincial All Star National competition. If this what you like to see for building the mens's National team then I rest my case. This is a great way to limit the pool of talent, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 quote:Originally posted by dutcy What part of putting a proper infrastructure you don't get. You have already admitted that the clubs are not equipped to develop our players,let alone the most talented ones.So this is the reason why we have governing bodies to identify the sources of the problems and try to correct them. Yes, we all know Canada ranks 99, and we all know that our club systems are mediocre so what is anybody doing about this? No I still don't get it. Nor do I know what your proposed alternative is? Strangely, you acknowledge that the club system is able to develop talent but you say that the CSA and OSA should have no part the development process and not bother select and train players for provincial and national teams. So then you have no elite level system? or am I wrong here? No provincial teams and no national teams and everyone just plays for fun correct? quote:Originally posted by dutcy Picking a handfull of players at 11 years of age and then discard them when new crops come in every fall, is not going to solve our problems. Like I said above ,this system has not worked for so many years, let's try something more productive, mot just a quick fix But identifying and selecting talented individuals, putting them together in a competive environment and allowing the cream to rise to the top, is what is being done all over the world (for all sports) to develop talent. quote:Originally posted by dutcy Like I said above ,this system has not worked for so many years, let's try something more productive, mot just a quick fix. I am not sure what system you are alluding to. if your thinking of this: http://www.canadasoccer.com/eng/docs/blueprint/blueprint1.asp Then that has only been out for a few years. quote:Originally posted by dutcy With regards to your concerns about getting media exposure and sponsors, this can be achieved but the governing bodies have to have a plan with vision and at the moment there is none. I don't know how a plan or vision will get you any media exposure. The media will cover only what people are interested in hearing listen or reading. quote:Originally posted by dutcy As long as people are content with the present system, and think that after all those players registered in the sport we can come up with a few players to show for, there is definitely something wrong. I don't know if the current system, whatever this system is, is good or not. And I am sorry if it sounds like I am trying nit pick on your viewpoints. But I am just curious to know exactly what needs to be changed. I see alot of general statements but I seldom see any concrete proposals that I can understand. quote:Originally posted by dutcy By the way in most countries players get called up for world events, by the National coaches,I don't think the governing bodies spent their time and money trying to develop a few 11 year olds, hoping they will be the same people when they are older. Again, sorry, I am not following you here. I may be wrong but it sounds contradictory from your earlier views. Your saying that there shoudl be national teams but we shouldn't be starting to identify talent at the age of 11. When is the right age to start. It seems to me that most big clubs do start very young with academies and so forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 I think in different countries the models will vary in this debate about regional or national youth teams and camps, vs. clubs developing players. In any case until a certain age the most important thing is teaching skills and some tactical sense, and a modest club with a good coach can do that and help a player develop. I agree that the OSA intervening at 11 is a bit much, it is too early, you still have rarely defined a player's true positional area at that age, eg. tons of pro defenders played striker until they were just coming into their teens, all kinds of keepers emerge even later (here the physical question comes clear by the teens). At some point this is not good enough though, unless the club happens to have a very good overall level, and plays in a league with such a level. A youth elite league can give some good level in the bigger metro areas. But still, the provincial SA and the CSA can complement the process at some point. Maybe that age is around 13-14, when kids can get called into camps run by the regional or national associations, play some top competition and get a feel of what representing their province or nation might mean. But they still have to be able to play in their clubs, enjoy the camaderie of friends from their schools and neighbourhoods on the same club, at least until the mid teens. Where maybe I don't agree with the big worries about youth when thinking about success of the national sides, is that in my view we have more and more talent in Canada, and the big problem is getting the performances out of them. So the real question is getting right coaching at the top, say from u-17 nats on, and having a structure that does not let talent get wasted, decent scouting, and a more modern way of understanding the game. Here Dale Mitchell did the job for the u-20s in the preps, qualifying and actuall WYCup. I questioned things like Karim in goal and he did great, and then we saw players like Tulio and Arango coming up with very fine performances, I mention them as they are not the ones usually thought of. Maybe they even played above their level. We are not getting that out of our senior men, we have more talent at higher levels, seeing better and better competition in their pro clubs, and there is nothing to show for it on the national results level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutcy Posted September 22, 2004 Share Posted September 22, 2004 Free Kick, my post was initiated after reading various threads about the disapointment that many supporters feel over the period of years with the results of the Mens's National Team. My original intent was not to outline a specific system about choosing our young prospects for the National program. However, I tried to give my opinion as to the reasons, I think our National team has been unsuccesful over the years. Personally I don't feel that by writing a letter to the CSA and asking someone to resign will do anything to help the situation. On the other hand, if many people expressed their concerns about the lack of a proper player development in this country, that would be the start of getting somewhere. Canadian soccer supporters must first realize that the present player structure is not going to yield any positive results, in upgrading our level of play. Free Kick, you claim I am too general in my ideas, so I will try to be more concrete.The foundation of any sport is its grassroots correct? So in our case soccer: mini from U5 to U9,then at U10 competitive playing begin and at 11 regional tryouts start for provincial tryouts and at U14 National all Star tournamnet. Every year the process eliminates and streams young players way too premature before they have even developed the skill needed.Then the provincial players slowly get eliminated as they don't make the NTC and so on and so on. Obviously elimination must occur,but at what expense? By the age of under 16 a full 75% of all players have left the game, and by under 18 about 90% of all registered players have quit the sport. So do the provincial bodies or the CSA care, I doubt it. But how good is that for the game and for creating a soccer nation? So to answer your question about who should train those players? Obviously the clubs are questionable, and the provincial and national all they do is cut,cut and cut, simply because they don't have the resources to train all those elite players, and various other reasons. So what do I propose? Well I think I did mention about a sysytem similar to the Ontario hockey league,but I have even something that could be implemented faster and give us quicker results for the National team program. They should create regional centres where elite players could participate in development and high level training. The governing bodies like the OSA, and CSA for instance, can keep scouting and keep an open rapport with the coaching staff on quality players. Those players in turn can play on their teams and at about the ages 15 16 may be called up for National team training etc.This is just one idea, I am sure there are many others. We need more depth in our National teams, we need a big selection of players that the National coaches can choose from. The present system of streaming and eliminating at the ages of almost 13 is counterproductive and if this process of selection continues in hope of finding National prospects could be the detriment to the future of the sport. Thoughts and opinions from a true Canadian soccer supporter. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettermirror Posted September 22, 2004 Share Posted September 22, 2004 there already are national training centres. the resources limit how many players can attend - as i understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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