V's Leadership thread

[Cheeta]

Now we're rolling. And we're seeing the soft underbelly of the Vs exposed. It's plain and simply that we are not an organization. We are a message board.

Spokesman? Spokesman for who again exactly? Spokesman on what again exactly? And what exactly is "our" position on what we're using a spokesman for? Not dumping on Fury here. Everybody seems to being going to great pains to point that out but I've know Dwayne a few years and guess what? He's a big boy. He can take it and he can dish it out if he feels it's warranted. So feel free to speak your mind and dump away! but be prepared to duck!

I'm uncomfortable, as have been a good many others, with the non-structure of the Vs. Well meaning Vs have committed time, effort and money on specific projects over the years for the benefit of both Canadian soccer and the broader goal of the Voyageur reputation within our footballing subculture. Bravo. I salute them all. But they've all acted on their own initiative even if they've consulted the forums to try to draw a consensus or no.

That's not the way it should be. Yes, individual members or groups of members will always be the catalyst for "getting things done", whether they're operating within an organized structure or no. But at the least, those operating with the blessing of that organization can legitimately say they're doing so on such & such's behalf.

None of our activist members needs to be handicapped by a bureaucracy, quite the opposite. But no one should have the right to arbitrarily attach the Vs legacy of good will to their individual project no matter how well meaning. Everything we've done these last few years has been done individually, within that vacuum.

If we had a structure we could have a means of determining authority and a means for relinquishing authority. It's that simple.

Safeguards could easily be built in to guard against "outsiders" hi-jacking the process. A real concern for some of the veteran Vs on this site.

Does that mean attaching a Voyageur letterhead to a project becomes a pain in the ass? Absolutely. Welcome to democracy. Deal with it or don't, that's entirely up to you. But that is the price you're going to have to pay for belonging to something bigger.

And speaking of prices-to-pay I strongly disagree with River City on membership. As far as I'm concerned membership to the Voyageur website is free, to a Voyageur Organization (whatever that'll be) isn't. You pay, you play. Representation only through taxation.

I can't help but feel this is the way forward. It has it's risks, but then so did moving away from the old Network54 forum. That was the last really divisive debate that I can remember and for all the bumps and disappointments we've experienced with the website/forum since then I don't think ANYONE, including a few veterans Voyageurs who were against THAT move a few years ago, would ever think of going back.

P.S. dsqpr made a point about a Vs organization not necessarily having to have a Vs name attached to it and while that may be true, for many of the more activist Vs, those who've invested there individual time and money for the greater good of building a Vs legacy and reputation I think that position is a non-starter. Too many people have too much tied up into the Voyageur name to turn their back on it voluntarily.

P.S.S. This is good. We've got plenty of time to continue the debate so let us.

[CanadianTraveller]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

Now we're rolling. And we're seeing the soft underbelly of the Vs exposed. It's plain and simply that we are not an organization. We are a message board.

Agreed...although there may very well be an organization in some fashion based upon events that occur outside of this forum. Since I'm not a part of that, I can't tell you what is or what isn't...only that there's something there that might be a component of the Vs that may better resemble an organization. That would make the Vs comprised of a message board and an organization...and maybe some other things.

quote:

I'm uncomfortable, as have been a good many others, with the non-structure of the Vs. Well meaning Vs have committed time, effort and money on specific projects over the years for the benefit of both Canadian soccer and the broader goal of the Voyageur reputation within our footballing subculture. Bravo. I salute them all. But they've all acted on their own initiative even if they've consulted the forums to try to draw a consensus or no.

That's not the way it should be.

I'll disagree there. Having been involved with a surprisingly similar "organization" or concept in another realm, I'd suggest that it can and sometimes should work this way. Not optimal, I'd concur. And for some very specific tasks, perhaps a formal organization is needed in order to, as you wrote, "legitimately say they're doing so on such & such's behalf". But in a self-identifying club with no charter, it's hard to suggest anyone believes they are "legitimate". They're just...doing things. Good things, generally speaking. And yes, that means that anything someone does in the name of the Vs can and does impact the brand.

quote:

None of our activist members needs to be handicapped by a bureaucracy, quite the opposite. But no one should have the right to arbitrarily attach the Vs legacy of good will to their individual project no matter how well meaning. Everything we've done these last few years has been done individually, within that vacuum.

Interesting concept of a "Vs legacy" - generally agreed to by most here - if the definition of the Vs is, as you stated above, "a message board". I'd love to understand what people honestly believe the Vs legacy is...but let's not clutter this thread with that conversation. Please. But I would suggest that if the Vs is just a message board, then a legacy is still to develop. Perhaps that legacy will include many of the things that have occurred over the last decade, but it's tough to believe a message board has a legacy.

quote:

And speaking of prices-to-pay I strongly disagree with River City on membership. As far as I'm concerned membership to the Voyageur website is free, to a Voyageur Organization (whatever that'll be) isn't. You pay, you play. Representation only through taxation.

Experience has taught me never to withhold the ability of others to associate with you. Experience has also taught me that a small sacrifice, a simple identifying gesture, is an excellent way to build membership and a true sense of belonging. "Being a Voyageur" may always mean nothing more than clicking on a web page, with no means of identifying someone. But "A member of the Voyageurs Supporters" allows you to accomplish a number of things, and allows those who want to identify themselves to do so very effectively. Payment is one excellent way to foster membership (and by payment, we're talking $10 and $20, perhaps for a 4-year membership), but in the 21st century there are others equally valid. And in some circles, paid membership adds a level of respectability that increases membership and involvement, not decrease it.

quote:

P.S. dsqpr made a point about a Vs organization not necessarily having to have a Vs name attached to it and while that may be true, for many of the more activist Vs, those who've invested there individual time and money for the greater good of building a Vs legacy and reputation I think that position is a non-starter. Too many people have too much tied up into the Voyageur name to turn their back on it voluntarily.

Quite right...although we've already seen over the last six months how the membership has differentiated itself. WF even started that process with a post in September attempting to define some of the positive traits of what a Voyageur was to him...don't know if he meant to put people into groups, but that's what occurred.

If I recall correctly, this thread started with a call for people of like interests to come together and discuss how they could move forward. I would strongly suggest that this meeting is very necessary, although its purpose might be quite different than what SpeedMonk had envisioned. First, I think you need some people from a variety of backgrounds to actually agree on what "this" is - what has "The Voyageurs" become over the last year or three years. If my guess is correct, if the Vs are an umbrella concept for all those who support soccer in Canada, and Canada in global soccer, you'll find it's easier to define what the Vs isn't, than actually define what it is. And that's 100% OK...I think.

Then those who are prepared to work for the next two years while membership numbers stagnate, participation declines, and major events are at a minimum; can decide on the practical methods of demonstrating your support. Just because the Vs probably means a very large number of things to various people, does not mean that there's anyone willing or able to advance all of those causes. Find people willing to lead one cause, one issue, one event, find others who are willing to follow, and hopefully find a few willing to recruit others. And those causes, issues, and events will define the Vs...for a couple of years anyways. Then new people will come forward, others will move on in their lives, WCQ 2014 will start up, and things will change again.

I think SpeedMonk had the correct order of events, although probably organized for the wrong reasons. An initial "discussion" - definitely not in person - needs to occur just to figure out what to do. Once that occurs, once there is some meaningful direction, there can and will be break-out groups who get together. Hopefully not regional groups, but groups based upon a common objective and a willingness to work together. That could and will include some regional groups, solely due to the objective being advanced. Those groups will effectively form the foundation for the "activist" Vs for awhile...even if the groups have very little in common, and never meet the other Vs. From there...as things develop and a greater sense of global community evolve...maybe there will come a time when leaders come together and attempt to bring a more formal structure to what today is largely a concept. And maybe that time will never come, and that's OK too.

And WF, based upon very little information, I'd suggest that this chain of events likely has all occurred already with you within the Vs. Just outside of the view of the forum (which may have been the best thing to do logistically, but that decision has led to this discussion) and involving only one aspect of Voyageurdom. And that's natural in my experience. Now it's time to take that model, learn from it, try it again in a slightly larger forum, and see if more than six or twelve folks can agree on something at the same time. Keeping in mind the challenges of getting two or three people to agree...yes, this exercise could fail miserably. Not sure that there's anything to lose in trying, but guaranteed that it cannot succeed without the active leadership of some of the people who have already built the Vs and its "organization"...whatever that is.

[Reza]

I would like to recommend that we do two things, in light of discussions here.

I understand the passions and the reasons that some might have, but since this was an out of the blue request by someone, let's take this discussion offline. I recommend to have a discussion between interested people (the numbers seems somewhat limited anyways), first through facebook Inbox or some other form of easy to use but relatively private communication. Forums are probably the worst possible place to discuss these matters in the long run.

Secondly, as a starting point, I like to clarify some items as well. A couple of years ago, when I was getting quite busy with life and things were fairly quiet on Canadian soccer front, Dwayne Cole offered to volunteer his time to take over a lot of the leading efforts and dealing with CSA and others. Being a long time veteran of this group and knowing his dedication to the sport, it was clear that he would do well and he has and in that past 2 years, from Voyageurs Cup to our 4 qualifiers this year, he has transformed many aspects of this organization and has established good links to CSA and other groups and entities. For that, I ask that we do respect his role in that capacity and understand that he has been the unofficial leader or point of contact with CSA and others in the past 2 years.

I believe that between all interested parties, we should discuss the direction and details of the organization and all the complexities that comes with it, but we can not simply make all kinds of statements on a public board and expect it to have a positive effect on the future of Voyageurs.

Speedmonk, how about if we lock this thread, start with a private discussion on facebook and go from there (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2695470268 ). I think pretty much everone who has posted here, is a member on the Voyageurs facebook as well, so you can start a discussion through facebook inbox and go from there.

[Guest speedmonk42]

Ok Reza. Done.

You guys start it though, I won't be part of it. If there is anything I can do, just ask. I would be happy to help in any respect.

I would like to reiterate that have never once questioned WF or anyone's integrity or ability.

The V's are doing great, so whatever you guys do, start with that.