Player-Development Program

[ahmedou]

''Canada Soccer's Player-Development Program features the PDP U-17 Cup and PDP U-15 Cup for both boys and girls.''

[El Diego]

I am curious about this, we now have the PDP Championship but we still have Nationals? What's the purpose here, my first guess is that PDP is higher standards based and like a "Tier 1" national championship"? I do see that it is only BC, AB, ON and QC teams can qualify for the PDP Championship as they have leagues that are recognized as part of the PDP network. Are we hoping/planning for all provinces to become part of the PDP network?

Any insight appreciated, I find this stuff interesting and didn't realize this was in the works.

[Obinna]

16 minutes ago, El Diego said:

I am curious about this, we now have the PDP Championship but we still have Nationals? What's the purpose here, my first guess is that PDP is higher standards based and like a "Tier 1" national championship"? I do see that it is only BC, AB, ON and QC teams can qualify for the PDP Championship as they have leagues that are recognized as part of the PDP network. Are we hoping/planning for all provinces to become part of the PDP network?

Any insight appreciated, I find this stuff interesting and didn't realize this was in the works.

The PDP is a supplement to the Toyota National Championships in October, not a replacement. It's an exclusive competition, in that only clubs meeting the National Standards are allowed to participate. I am curious to see how things change overtime as more clubs fall in line with the national standards, but for the time being there are only clubs from Ontario, Quebec, BC and Alberta represented in these "national" competitions.

My "local" club, Calgary Rangers, meet the national standards, so they are eligible for this competition, provided they get through their provincial qualifiers (which they have done in a few age groups), but as far as I know they are still able to qualify for the Toyota National club championship if they win the Alberta provincials.

So, clubs meeting the National standards have two "national" club competitions to play for, while the rest of the clubs just have the one.

[Obinna]

Also worth noting is that it's not necessarily 1 team per province. One age group (can't recall which) have two Alberta sides, both from Calgary (Rangers and Foothills), but no side from Edmonton, even though that's the host city. Another age group (U-15?) has no Ontario representation. So it seems like a bit of a hodge podge right now, but I do like the general idea of it.

[Dominic94]

Should also help serve as a scouting combine 

[nolando]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Also worth noting is that it's not necessarily 1 team per province. One age group (can't recall which) have two Alberta sides, both from Calgary (Rangers and Foothills), but no side from Edmonton, even though that's the host city. Another age group (U-15?) has no Ontario representation. So it seems like a bit of a hodge podge right now, but I do like the general idea of it.

 

Lots of BC clubs involved. It feels very much like a powerplay by Canada Soccer. Do as we tell you to and there are rewards; don't fall in line and risk becoming obsolete.

 

 

 

 

[El Diego]

9 minutes ago, nolando said:

 

Lots of BC clubs involved. It feels very much like a powerplay by Canada Soccer. Do as we tell you to and there are rewards; don't fall in line and risk becoming obsolete.

 

 

 

 

This is kinda what I was mostly wondering -- how much of this decision is top down and how much is bottom up?

[nolando]

28 minutes ago, El Diego said:

This is kinda what I was mostly wondering -- how much of this decision is top down and how much is bottom up?

100% top down. Canada Soccer started throwing out all their required changes without a  discussion or plan in place for the clubs to achieve them within such tight timelines. I heard that directly from two of the big BC clubs involved. 

And, for the record, I have been heavily involved in youth soccer for a decade and can see where change is needed, and for standards to be improved, but at the same time have seen how onerous this has been for many clubs. 

Think of it like the youth version of what happened with League 1 and Highlanders. The ideas and goals are coming from the right place, I mostly feel, but the process and timeline is sometimes not well rooted in reality for a lot of clubs.  

[Kent]

8 hours ago, nolando said:

100% top down. Canada Soccer started throwing out all their required changes without a  discussion or plan in place for the clubs to achieve them within such tight timelines. I heard that directly from two of the big BC clubs involved. 

And, for the record, I have been heavily involved in youth soccer for a decade and can see where change is needed, and for standards to be improved, but at the same time have seen how onerous this has been for many clubs. 

Think of it like the youth version of what happened with League 1 and Highlanders. The ideas and goals are coming from the right place, I mostly feel, but the process and timeline is sometimes not well rooted in reality for a lot of clubs.  

Is that why the original version of the nationals are still happening? Phasing in the PDP championships to one day ideally replace the nationals, provided they can get enough provinces/leagues/teams to make only having the PDP championship sufficient?

[Dominic94]

9 hours ago, nolando said:

100% top down. Canada Soccer started throwing out all their required changes without a  discussion or plan in place for the clubs to achieve them within such tight timelines. I heard that directly from two of the big BC clubs involved. 

And, for the record, I have been heavily involved in youth soccer for a decade and can see where change is needed, and for standards to be improved, but at the same time have seen how onerous this has been for many clubs. 

Think of it like the youth version of what happened with League 1 and Highlanders. The ideas and goals are coming from the right place, I mostly feel, but the process and timeline is sometimes not well rooted in reality for a lot of clubs.  

Not always the best approach but to be fair we’ve been so broken for so long that it is needed.

[Obinna]

41 minutes ago, Kent said:

Is that why the original version of the nationals are still happening? Phasing in the PDP championships to one day ideally replace the nationals, provided they can get enough provinces/leagues/teams to make only having the PDP championship sufficient?

I would be disappointed if it ultimately came down to that, and not just because I played in that tournament many years ago. The reality is, not every club will meet the national standards, it's not possible or realistic. They are better off keeping both competitions, as they'll always be smaller, less developed clubs, without ambitious to meet the national standards, and that should be okay. These clubs have their place and serve their purpose in the ecosystem. If they manage to claw their way to a provincial title, beating out the PHP clubs, then they deserve their spot in the Nationals. Denying them that wouldn't help anyone, would it?

With time, more and more clubs will hopefully meet the PHP standards and that competition will grow in size and importance, but there is zero need to axe the October national championships. 

[nolando]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

Is that why the original version of the nationals are still happening? Phasing in the PDP championships to one day ideally replace the nationals, provided they can get enough provinces/leagues/teams to make only having the PDP championship sufficient?

I suspect that is exactly correct.

[Kent]

8 hours ago, Obinna said:

I would be disappointed if it ultimately came down to that, and not just because I played in that tournament many years ago. The reality is, not every club will meet the national standards, it's not possible or realistic. They are better off keeping both competitions, as they'll always be smaller, less developed clubs, without ambitious to meet the national standards, and that should be okay. These clubs have their place and serve their purpose in the ecosystem. If they manage to claw their way to a provincial title, beating out the PHP clubs, then they deserve their spot in the Nationals. Denying them that wouldn't help anyone, would it?

With time, more and more clubs will hopefully meet the PHP standards and that competition will grow in size and importance, but there is zero need to axe the October national championships. 

What I was thinking is that if every province has an OPDL-like league that attracts all the best players and coaches, then those teams may ultimately be the ones with a chance of winning the provincial tournament anyways. I'm not sure what it's like in Newfoundland (which is where I believe you played your youth soccer), but when I grew up in Ontario my team was not in the least bit involved in a provincial tournament. I played on a small town team and we would have been slaughtered. Even when I played for a bit bigger city (Kitchener) there wasn't any provincial tournament for us (not sure if the provincials go up to U19?). We won our league that year, played a one off game against the winner of another league at the same level as ours (this might have just been organized by the coaches of the two teams, with medals for the winners), but no provincials because there was still another tier ahead of us.

That's not to say it's good to have teams cut out, but if they institute clear pyramids (obviously with geographical considerations too) then people can make a decision whether to play for this tier 3 club close to home, or their closest tier 1 club a couple hours away, etc.

[Ottawafan]

Feels like another large expense for clubs/teams/parents to absorb for minimal gain, especially when there is already a championship in place.

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

What I was thinking is that if every province has an OPDL-like league that attracts all the best players and coaches, then those teams may ultimately be the ones with a chance of winning the provincial tournament anyways. I'm not sure what it's like in Newfoundland (which is where I believe you played your youth soccer), but when I grew up in Ontario my team was not in the least bit involved in a provincial tournament. I played on a small town team and we would have been slaughtered. Even when I played for a bit bigger city (Kitchener) there wasn't any provincial tournament for us (not sure if the provincials go up to U19?). We won our league that year, played a one off game against the winner of another league at the same level as ours (this might have just been organized by the coaches of the two teams, with medals for the winners), but no provincials because there was still another tier ahead of us.

That's not to say it's good to have teams cut out, but if they institute clear pyramids (obviously with geographical considerations too) then people can make a decision whether to play for this tier 3 club close to home, or their closest tier 1 club a couple hours away, etc.

Newfoundland is a great example to bring up and I will contrast it with Calgary, where I currently live. In Calgary, the two clubs nearest to me are Rangers (PHP) and West Hills United, and I have tried both with my child, but I'm the future if she aspires to play competitively, I will keep here with Rangers, which is to your point about people making decisions based on what's clubs meet National Standards.

Newfoundland is entirely different. Many of the small towns, if they even have teams, wouldn't enter into the provincial tournament, as they wouldn't be good enough for it to make sense. Instead, they band together and send regional teams. The Western part of the Island will send a team, the Burin Peninsula will send a team (often they are very competitive), and sometimes the Central region of the Island will send a team. I can guarantee none of these regional associations, nor the smaller clubs inside them, will ever have any ambition to achieve whatever the national standards are. As for the Metro area teams, St. John's Soccer Club, MPSA, Fieldians AA, Paradise Soccer Club, CBS Strikers, and SPPC....I suppose if one of them aimed to meet the national standards it could poach players from the other clubs, but the natural order of things is to go play with the best clubs anyway, so that dynamic already exists. 

Regardless, I see the point in your post, that serious players will naturally gravitate to PHP-eligible clubs if they have the means and desire. The PHP clubs in theory will be the best clubs, and just looking at the Calgary landscape, it seems most of the top clubs were the early adopters and met the national standards first, which again is no surprise.

I think we would agree, but my contention would be they should keep the Toyota National championships as they are. If a non-PHP club wins it, so be it!

Oh another point, to circle back to a place like Newfoundland, you may never get a league of PHP-eligible clubs, but maybe you would see a club (or two at most) gain this status in the medium or even short term. What happens then, does that club automatically get a buy into the PHP nationals? And if they don't really have another PHP club locally to spar with, are they really improving? How competitive would they be against a PHP Ontario side that came out on top of a 27-team PHP league, for instance?