The Next Messi

[RJB]

I'll start by saying I think Messi is the best ever and he was before the tournament.  I'm disappointed to hear people saying that now he's the best ever as if that means the trophy is a requirement.  That bugs me because that really excludes lots of players who will simply never win the tournament.  Save me the comments, I know that any team can win, but history has shown us that there is a very small group that is likely to.  

I really do feel like the whole world wanted Messi to win.  OK, maybe just the people I talk to, but there was quite a feeling about it that it was expected, and that he deserved to win it based on his career.  I won't argue that, but think it's foolish that he would have a glaring hole without it, as if Cruyff is less of a player because he lacks the gold medal!  

But I'm left to wonder who will fill his shoes?  Who is the player out there who now deserves the title like Messi did.  My first thought is that it's Modric, but he's likely too old to really be considered (or maybe not!).  Essentially, I'm curious who the next 'Ray Bourque' is?  Which player out there will have so many people rooting for them to complete their trophy case?  

[GasPed]

1 hour ago, RJB said:

I'll start by saying I think Messi is the best ever and he was before the tournament.  I'm disappointed to hear people saying that now he's the best ever as if that means the trophy is a requirement.  That bugs me because that really excludes lots of players who will simply never win the tournament.  Save me the comments, I know that any team can win, but history has shown us that there is a very small group that is likely to.  

I really do feel like the whole world wanted Messi to win.  OK, maybe just the people I talk to, but there was quite a feeling about it that it was expected, and that he deserved to win it based on his career.  I won't argue that, but think it's foolish that he would have a glaring hole without it, as if Cruyff is less of a player because he lacks the gold medal!  

But I'm left to wonder who will fill his shoes?  Who is the player out there who now deserves the title like Messi did.  My first thought is that it's Modric, but he's likely too old to really be considered (or maybe not!).  Essentially, I'm curious who the next 'Ray Bourque' is?  Which player out there will have so many people rooting for them to complete their trophy case?  

 10 years ago, not many people were rooting for Messi like they are today.  Even the Argentineans weren't sold on his "Argentinianess"; Maradona was the god who rose from the slums to transcend football while Messi was the silver-spooned dilettante who left for Europe early and only came back to underwhelm for his country when it really counted.  (See article below from 2010 for an example).

Maradona vs. Messi: A Laughable Comparison | News, Scores, Highlights, Stats, and Rumors | Bleacher Report

Point being, many times it takes longevity (and failures) to become a beloved figure, and it's very difficult to predict how a career will unfold.  I will say that right now I can only see two kids with enough offensive firepower to rival that of Messi/Ronaldo - Mbappe and Haaland.  But who knows how their careers will go - they have a long ways to go before they become legendary.  And while Mbappe already has his World Cup, Haaland may never even get to see that tournament.  😐

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, GasPed said:

 10 years ago, not many people were rooting for Messi like they are today.  Even the Argentineans weren't sold on his "Argentinianess"; Maradona was the god who rose from the slums to transcend football while Messi was the silver-spooned dilettante who left for Europe early and only came back to underwhelm for his country when it really counted.  (See article below from 2010 for an example).

Maradona vs. Messi: A Laughable Comparison | News, Scores, Highlights, Stats, and Rumors | Bleacher Report

Point being, many times it takes longevity (and failures) to become a beloved figure, and it's very difficult to predict how a career will unfold.  I will say that right now I can only see two kids with enough offensive firepower to rival that of Messi/Ronaldo - Mbappe and Haaland.  But who knows how their careers will go - they have a long ways to go before they become legendary.  And while Mbappe already has his World Cup, Haaland may never even get to see that tournament.  😐

That is a good reminder for readers here.  I remember those commentaries.  Regardless of Messi's fantastic and all time achievements, I think the apparition of Maradona remained an ever presence..until after the final winning penalty of this match. 

The overcoming of dramatic personal failures and serious adversity make the story much more compelling.  Everyone (or, almost everyone) likes a comeback story or finally fulfilling that promise.  It's a Hollywood script.  That's what I would be looking for in this scenario.

 

 

 

 

 

[gigi riva]

The Messi vs MaraDONA comparisons I thought were a bit much.To me he was similiar to Diego in many ways  

Edited December 19, 2022 by gigi riva

[gigi riva]

I honestly do not think we will see a player like Messi for some time . Who knows maybe there is a 10 year old in Rio, Paris ,Rosario etc on that similiar path we just dont know 

[Cadeau]

Yeah the seemingly forced 'Messi will finally win to cement his goat status' narrative was a bit nauseating at times. The fact that that was basically a French B squad was barely mentioned. I like Messi, I'm glad (and he deserves) to go out on top. And he may be greater than Ronaldo but he's not greater than Maradona, because Maradona carried more on his back, but thats just me.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Congratulations to all those who actually started watching Messi with certain attention in November 2022. 

Those of us who have been watching for 17 years or so have seen things we have never seen with any other player. And I saw Cruyff play on a pitch, and a few other greats of the past 3 decades, pretty well all of them except, let's say, the stars at AC Milan under Sacchi. Messi lacked the personality to be truly loved as a folk hero, but I have never seen a player make me shake my head, laugh, sit stunned, blink in rapid-fire, or all four, with so much consistency. Pretty well every game Messi would do something, even when he started to miss stuff in his last years at Barça, it was both funny and amazing.

Even yesterday, that blast that Lloris stopped wonderfully: Messi never does that, blast a shot that hard, he always looks for a corner and passes it in, even first touch. So that was Messi being out of character, and yes, it's entertaining.

I do get bothered by gratuitous slander, like him getting constantly fouled, and often injured: Messi is the player with the most "play ons" in history. No other player has been fouled and kept going with the same nobility, I've spent seasons and seasons watching refs say "play on" with the two arms outstretched because Messi got hacked, fell, got up and kept going. I think it was calculated in one La Liga at over 50.

Those of us who have seen him the most, and I guess I have seen scores if not hundreds of games (though never outside of a stadium, don't think), are also aware that he had defects. He has missed tons of penalties, for example (missed one this WC too, as did Lewandowski, so maybe we can cut Davies a bit of slack). Messi more importantly often lacked leadership, so that the best player in the world could not get Barça into another Champions League final for years, after 2016, when really we had no excuse. If the team collapsed, he could often collapse with it (Liverpool, but also Roma), or at least not alter the path we were on. No one put him down as the main culprit, as that would be silly, but he probably should have been more successful at Barça. Same as Argentina should have beat that only average German team that won in Brazil (okay, it was Higuain's fault)--or those Argentina teams that lost twice to Chile in Copa America.

Even yesterday, the two first France goals came from Messi give-aways in the middle of the pitch (iirc), when he is supposed to be the one to keep things in order and help not let that happen. It was as if he was helping write the more entertaining epic narrative, when he really should have been helping draft a boring technical manual on their way to the end of the game up 2-0.

Maradona had the mental drive, and insanity, to make things happen around him; what he did at Napoli was far beyond what any of the other greats of world football have done. Weah could not get Liberia to a World Cup, for example. Sure, it did feel that Zidane was instrumental in that first France World Cup, larger than life. There are players who have been heros at the right time with far less football, like Paolo Rossi, who apart from that was apparently corrupt. Rossi was better in Spain 82 than Messi in Qatar, facts are facts. Messi often was just another piece of a good team on the biggest stage, which is how I saw him this World Cup. He was slower, played his role, fit in well with the team, did not overplay, then had little details. 

From a Barça perspective, it is probably good he got out of here. He'd been around since he was 11, with his uninspiring family hanging out at the house, and probably needed a kick in the butt, some emotional turmoil, to mature as a player. He is surprisingly more articulate, far grittier, he shows greater mental toughness, he can even be saucy and rude, which coming from him is quite funny I find. He's not a vindictive player and is overall generous, but maybe he needed to have a fire lit under him.

For me the jury is still out on the greatest in history, because Pele has an aura you cannot touch, and he played in a harder time for a shine to be seen, and on a team that no one watched in league matches ever. I have gotten greater pleasure watching other strikers and players, probably for simply aesthetic reasons, a question of taste. I loved watching Romario, he was so economical. I also enjoyed Xavi, it was always a masterclass. I loved Valerón, so elegant, who was De Guzmán's teammate at Depor, or another master from the Canary Islands, David Silva. Puyol I think went entire seasons without getting a yellow, the skill combined with brute physicality was a hard combination and he mastered it. All these guys cause emotion to swell inside of me, they rouse me; Messi, not really. I don't have the same emotional connection with Messi, also because of his character and the inexplicable detail of him keeping that Rosario accent, a bit of a cultural fossil, despite leaving there as a pre-teen.

No, he's not my favourite player even, and I am not sure he is the best ever. 

 

[TGAA_Star]

In Argentine football, who ends up being hailed as the next Messi? Out of the wonderkids in Argentina right now, there is:

- Luka Romero 

- Dario Sarmiento

- Nico Paz

- Alejandro Garnacho

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

It’s almost impossible to predict a teenagers future as a footballer, but hearing Tim Vickery talk about Endrick (now of Real Madrid), he said he hadn’t been that excited by a teenager since seeing Messi the first time. 

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

I’d also thought I take the time to spam the board with more punk music that no asked for. 
 

Stoichov - Messi Nois

 

[ensco]

8 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Congratulations to all those who actually started watching Messi with certain attention in November 2022. 

......

I do get bothered by gratuitous slander, like him getting constantly fouled, and often injured: Messi is the player with the most "play ons" in history. No other player has been fouled and kept going with the same nobility, I've spent seasons and seasons watching refs say "play on" with the two arms outstretched because Messi got hacked, fell, got up and kept going. I think it was calculated in one La Liga at over 50.

..........

No, he's not my favourite player even, and I am not sure he is the best ever. 

 

This is an interesting POV. Thanks. You have a unique set of names you are comparing him to.

The thing I think Messi had above all others, and it is connected to the "play ons", was a kind of close control in traffic, combined with an ability to get not just any shot or pass, but the right shot or pass, off in that traffic... I have never seen anybody else like him in that respect (and like you, I am old enough to have seen Cruyff in his prime). In this one respect he is far and away the greatest. 

The most complete player I ever saw was Kaka circa 2006-2007. But it was a short-lived brilliance. I think Mbappe reminds me of Kaka sometimes, just in terms of all the ways he is a threat.

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by ensco

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

What Maradona could do with a ball sometimes was simply on another level from any other player at the same tournament. Was Messi even as good as Mbappe yesterday?

[SpursFlu]

People also love Maradona because he was a deeply flawed individual. Filled with emotion and reckless behavior. It makes him interesting and attractive because we're all flawed in certain ways and that raw emotion, underdog posture and sheer will to overcome obstacles appeals to everyone especially in the Argentinian culture. And like with most people those obstacles were often of one's own doing. I almost found that Messi has morphed in to the same caricature of Messi but a Yin and Yang. A devil and angel. It almost felt I watched Maradona win the World Cup. It's like the evil and good version of the same person 

Edited December 19, 2022 by SpursFlu

[kacbru]

14 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Maradona had the mental drive, and insanity, to make things happen around him; what he did at Napoli was far beyond what any of the other greats of world football have done. Weah could not get Liberia to a World Cup, for example. Sure, it did feel that Zidane was instrumental in that first France World Cup, larger than life. There are players who have been heros at the right time with far less football, like Paolo Rossi, who apart from that was apparently corrupt. Rossi was better in Spain 82 than Messi in Qatar, facts are facts. Messi often was just another piece of a good team on the biggest stage, which is how I saw him this World Cup. He was slower, played his role, fit in well with the team, did not overplay, then had little details. 

Good, thought provoking post. 

You mention Zidane.  That made me think of the Zidane documentary (2006) - a mesmerizing film that is just an isolation from multiple cameras of Zidane during a game between RM and Villareal.  You don't get a sense of what is going on in the game, you lose all context and it is just close-ups of Zidane.  Brilliant.  There is a great quote from Zidane towards the end - 'Magic is sometimes really close to nothing at all'.

I think that is what all the truly great players have the ability to do - to surprise us by taking the numerous times in a game where there is nothing at all going on and turning it into a moment of brilliance that leaves us stunned.  Almost unable to process what just happened, because it defies expectations.  Messi does that.  Not continuously, but repeatedly.

[BearcatSA]

A colleague of mine whose football knowlege I greatly respect, in part because he had seen far more in person international and club matches in Europe, lived in Naples during Maradona's heyday there and was in awe of him as he watched from the stands.  The punishment he took in brutal challenges while on the dribble in a different era and yet freight train through them with those powerful thighs always impressed him.  Another thing:  he had never seen a guy in full flight on the dribble out run defenders sprinting to catch up to him.  Plus, the great shooting skills, control, and eye for a key pass at the right moment (I was anticipating that Messi would get it to Alvarez for the winner in the same manner that Maradona found Burruchaga at the Azteca thirty-six years earlier).

As for the topic, I am not seeing an all time great on the horizon as he closes in on his last chance for a World Cup winners' medal three and a half years from now.  Modric, as suggested, maybe?  Hard to say if he will still be around, who knows?

 

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by BearcatSA

[Cadeau]

Maradona was a god in Argentina AND Italy. The man had unparalleled impact. 

[Bigandy]

22 hours ago, Cadeau said:

Maradona was a god in Argentina AND Italy. The man had unparalleled impact. 

Isnt messi a god in Argentina AND spain? It feels like theres a parallel here. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

5 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Isnt messi a god in Argentina AND spain? It feels like theres a parallel here. 

He's not a god in Spain because the Real Madrid supporters and press are extremely stand-offish about him, sometimes to the point of being ridiculous. 

Sure, Barcelona supporters and press had a similar view of Cristiano, often picking at faults, but Barcelona is not the capital and the press doesn't dominate the entire country, as As and Marca do, as the major public and private tv channels do.

Even this week the subject has been in the football debates, like on Radio Marca, all these guys in the press who are die-hard Madrid fans who have spent their lives trying to downplay his merits. 

The Next Messi: imagine how hard that has to be, you're a young guy like Pedri or Foden or Musiala, but when you get to 21 and you are amazing, it is already obvious that you are nowhere near the talent of Messi and probably will never be. 

[gigi riva]

9 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

He's not a god in Spain because the Real Madrid supporters and press are extremely stand-offish about him, sometimes to the point of being ridiculous. 

Sure, Barcelona supporters and press had a similar view of Cristiano, often picking at faults, but Barcelona is not the capital and the press doesn't dominate the entire country, as As and Marca do, as the major public and private tv channels do.

Even this week the subject has been in the football debates, like on Radio Marca, all these guys in the press who are die-hard Madrid fans who have spent their lives trying to downplay his merits. 

The Next Messi: imagine how hard that has to be, you're a young guy like Pedri or Foden or Musiala, but when you get to 21 and you are amazing, it is already obvious that you are nowhere near the talent of Messi and probably will never be. 

Messi  was hailed in more in Catalunia  more so than the rest of Spain . I honestly do not think he was admired that much in the Basque region , I could be wrong on that one 

[gigi riva]

On 12/20/2022 at 12:04 PM, Cadeau said:

Maradona was a god in Argentina AND Italy. The man had unparalleled impact. 

Maradona was a God in Napoli or in the Capania region of Italy . The Northern part of Italy he was and so was Napoli despised

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, gigi riva said:

Messi  was hailed in more in Catalunia  more so than the rest of Spain . I honestly do not think he was admired that much in the Basque region , I could be wrong on that one 

Even Iniesta got booed in Bilbao, if you look at the reasons they are really petty. I'm not a big Athletic Club fan.

Then again, Ronaldinho was famously applauded at the Bernabeu, fans can be capricious.

[gigi riva]

On 12/22/2022 at 1:05 AM, Unnamed Trialist said:

Even Iniesta got booed in Bilbao, if you look at the reasons they are really petty. I'm not a big Athletic Club fan.

Then again, Ronaldinho was famously applauded at the Bernabeu, fans can be capricious.

I have never been to Spain nor do I know a whole lot about the Country political moods but from a far I have always found the people of the Basque region of Spain a bit insular and closeminded 

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, gigi riva said:

I have never been to Spain nor do I know a whole lot about the Country political moods but from a far I have always found the people of the Basque region of Spain a bit insular and closeminded 

I'd say Spain isn't super open minded or worldly, or even cosmopolitan,  but that has the possible benefit of the traditional aspects resisting change.