Carlo Ancelotti to coach MNT?

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, SpecialK said:

No - it’s about having value and respecting your program. Most companies and pro teams have no compete causes in their contracts. It’s very Standard. 

I support a club whose values and notion of respect is to never impose such clauses. So it's a question of interpretation. 

As I posted elsewhere, the CSA not providing Herdman with what we need to succeed will end with us losing him after Qatar. If we're not careful. And then if Carlo interviews with the CSA he'll get a shock for sure (not even thinking about the salary structure). 

[SpecialK]

2 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I support a club whose values and notion of respect is to never impose such clauses. So it's a question of interpretation. 

As I posted elsewhere, the CSA not providing Herdman with what we need to succeed will end with us losing him after Qatar. If we're not careful. And then if Carlo interviews with the CSA he'll get a shock for sure (not even thinking about the salary structure). 

I agree. I think if there is a clause it just has to do with international football. Like it would look so bad on the CSA if he just got up and quits and starts managing the US or even England. The CSA’s reputation would be destroyed. Club football Im sure it’s fair game. 
 

the question is what’s Carlo’s motivation. He is already quite old so it probably be a one and done. Plus the CSA is gonna have some more freedom and money because they won’t have to compete for a World Cup spot. Plus this 17-20 game Craziness they had to go this year is not gonna be the case next year.

Carlo is not coming in here to change anything or update or upgrade Canadian football system or grassroots or any of that BS. He’s coming here to Manage in the World Cup. 

[An Observer]

2 hours ago, SpecialK said:

I do hope the have real search though. With some bigs names in there including Ancelotti. The CSA needs a advisory board with former players, maybe former managers/ key Canadian football people to do a review/interview and sending findings or make the hiring. 
The CSA needs to grow and be better. Basketball Canada and hockey Canada has. Money is not the problem anymore. 

Frankly, i wouldn't use Basketball Canada as an example.  They cant even get half their NBA players to commit and play in the Worlds or Olympic qualifying.  Its quite pathetic.  And their coach is the coach for the Raptors so he can't even coach in the qualifications for the Worlds as they happen during the NBA regular season.  

And we are now a country with the second most players in the NBA by a far margin and that league dwarfs any other league as the best in the world.  Its actually a staggering failure that we have not qualified for the last two Olympics where the first time we had a dismal collapse in the America's qualifying in the semi's to a far interior Venezuela side and then couldn't sneak into through the repechage; and this time around we had that qualifying at home but still lost to a team with one NBA player on it!  Basketball Canada is a posterchild for underachieving and failure.

[Sal333]

After some thinking I've come up with my answer.  No I would not trade Herdman for Ancelotti.

1) You leave the dance with the person who brought you. Or to use a different cliche: if it ain't broke don't fix it. Herdman stays as long as he wants or if he starts to screw up royally - something I don't think will happen.

2) Let's wait and see what the NT team does at Qatar. I'm very confident once Qatar is done everyone but the most biased will realize Ancelotti couldn't have done better.

3) Ancelotti doesn't know what it's like to be in a dysfunctional organization like the CSA. He has been treated with kid gloves in some of the best teams in the best leagues in the world. Herdman knows how to squeeze the last drop of juice from the shriveled lemons he has been handed. Ancelotti is used to caviar and champagne. He'll bitch like the aristocrat. He doesn't know how to make ends meet.

4) In my eyes Herdman represents the future of soccer. Ancelotti is the past. Herdman is one of the most inquisitive, humble and innovative managers on the planet right now.  What manager would do what he did with Davies? He asked him how things were done at Bayern and when the kid spoke Herdman took notes. 

5) Herdman is the perfect man for the Canadian job today and for the next couple of world cups at least. Take a look at the CSA's mickey mouse efforts with their web site, their scheduling of friendlies and their lack of info for the U17s. Ancelotti would have no patience for these Keystone Cops that disguise themselves as the CSA.

6) Herdman has more to prove. He is hungrier. Ancelotti has done it all.

7) Finally not to be ageist but Ancelotti is 62. Many of you are talking about getting him after the 2026 WC. That means we're getting him for the 2030 WC. That's 8 years away. He'll be 70.

What I would do once he retires from RM is offer him a consultant position. Have him advise us on how to improve our organization.

[TGAA_Star]

Even if Herdman leaves the post of Canada manager, then I wouldn't be surprised if one of the CPL managers decides to throw their name in to be the next Canada manager or if let's say any other Canadian legends of the world game decide that they wanna be manager, like a De Vos or a Forrest.

[EJsens1]

1 hour ago, Sal333 said:

Finally not to be ageist but Ancelotti is 62. Many of you are talking about getting him after the 2026 WC. That means we're getting him for the 2030 WC. That's 8 years away. He'll be 70.

I suspect most would envision Ancelotti taking over for ‘26 under the assumption that Herdman moved on somewhere else, not ‘30.

Would 66 be too old? Not sure. Coaching a national team doesn’t require the day to day grind like a domestic coach. Clearly he’s still held in pretty high regard and connects with young players (albeit on a pretty stacked team). 
 

I understand the frustration the CSA provides with their top to bottom run organization. It’s been horrendous at times. With the influx of cash, I’ll give them a bit of time to adjust, hire, market and move to another level here the next 16 months. Maybe that’s naive on my part, but we shall see 

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Sal333 said:

After some thinking I've come up with my answer.  No I would not trade Herdman for Ancelotti.

1) You leave the dance with the person who brought you. Or to use a different cliche: if it ain't broke don't fix it. Herdman stays as long as he wants or if he starts to screw up royally - something I don't think will happen.

2) Let's wait and see what the NT team does at Qatar. I'm very confident once Qatar is done everyone but the most biased will realize Ancelotti couldn't have done better.

3) Ancelotti doesn't know what it's like to be in a dysfunctional organization like the CSA. He has been treated with kid gloves in some of the best teams in the best leagues in the world. Herdman knows how to squeeze the last drop of juice from the shriveled lemons he has been handed. Ancelotti is used to caviar and champagne. He'll bitch like the aristocrat. He doesn't know how to make ends meet.

4) In my eyes Herdman represents the future of soccer. Ancelotti is the past. Herdman is one of the most inquisitive, humble and innovative managers on the planet right now.  What manager would do what he did with Davies? He asked him how things were done at Bayern and when the kid spoke Herdman took notes. 

5) Herdman is the perfect man for the Canadian job today and for the next couple of world cups at least. Take a look at the CSA's mickey mouse efforts with their web site, their scheduling of friendlies and their lack of info for the U17s. Ancelotti would have no patience for these Keystone Cops that disguise themselves as the CSA.

6) Herdman has more to prove. He is hungrier. Ancelotti has done it all.

7) Finally not to be ageist but Ancelotti is 62. Many of you are talking about getting him after the 2026 WC. That means we're getting him for the 2030 WC. That's 8 years away. He'll be 70.

What I would do once he retires from RM is offer him a consultant position. Have him advise us on how to improve our organization.

Just for fun, let's respond to the points. 

First, it is not about a trade at all, Ancelloti is assuming he'll get to stay a bit more at Real Madrid and also seems to believe Herdman may not last long at Canada. If we are lucky, and we do well, then Herdman will get offers.

1-basically agree.

2-possibly true, and that is the charm: could a top coach like Ancelloti do better?

3-Ancelloti does not bitch, he's probably the most even-keel of the top coaches in the world. He has a very non aggressive character and tends to believe a lot in his players, relying on their capacity to interpret what's on the field. In the recent interview with Valdano he explained this in relation to his father, a dairy farmer, and his earlier coaches, who were all quiet understated men.

4-Ancelloti, considering what he has won, is at least as humble as Herdman. You obviously have never heard him speak or seen him work; and then Herdman, don't think humble is the virtue we are looking for. He explains he started with a 4-4-2 because that is what he played, and then only slowly began to adjust to his players' capacities and profiles. So he adjusts, and you can't say any of his teams were old-fashioned, including the present one. He just doesn't create an intellectualised discourse around how his teams play, not his manner.

5-you repeated point 3. But in any case, big clubs too have pressure, have weirdness, have to deal with outside bs like agents, I doubt he'd find CSA amateurness an extraordinary issue.

6-Ancelloti has most certainly not done anything with a national team, as Herdman has not done a thing with a club (and, if you push, has not done that much so far with our NT). That is a clear ambition.

7-Age is not a problem for a team that in a normal year plays 15 matches maximum, when he is used to being on a team that plays up to 60.

Perhaps the hidden gem: he's looking at Jonathan David for Real Madrid and thinking about coaching him for our NT going forward.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[dyslexic nam]

9 hours ago, An Observer said:

Frankly, i wouldn't use Basketball Canada as an example.  They cant even get half their NBA players to commit and play in the Worlds or Olympic qualifying.  Its quite pathetic.  And their coach is the coach for the Raptors so he can't even coach in the qualifications for the Worlds as they happen during the NBA regular season.  

And we are now a country with the second most players in the NBA by a far margin and that league dwarfs any other league as the best in the world.  Its actually a staggering failure that we have not qualified for the last two Olympics where the first time we had a dismal collapse in the America's qualifying in the semi's to a far interior Venezuela side and then couldn't sneak into through the repechage; and this time around we had that qualifying at home but still lost to a team with one NBA player on it!  Basketball Canada is a posterchild for underachieving and failure.

I know it is off topic but I was floored that we crashed out of Olympic basketball qualifying this cycle.  Massive underperformance by a team that included some solid NBA firepower.  Was really disappointing.  

[SpursFlu]

Yah actually our last try kinda had everyone except I think Jamal Murray and it was a big failure. Lost to Slovenia. A country of maybe 5 million people 

I think Ancelotti could be our next coach but Herdman is here until 2026 and then im pretty sure he'll be 100% gone. So we'll see in 4 years

[Free kick]

4 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I know it is off topic but I was floored that we crashed out of Olympic basketball qualifying this cycle.  Massive underperformance by a team that included some solid NBA firepower.  Was really disappointing.  

It was incredible that this side lost to the Czech Republic.  Their top player was considered journeyman NbA player or borderline NBA player.   There were injuries (Jamal Murray) and there were one or two NBA’ers that could have been useful but irrespective of that, the team Canada had was far superior talentwise to what the Czech’s had.   And they still lost.  The NBA players like Wiggins, when they show up for canada, they perform very well.   
 

In the last Olympic qualifying we were missing a point guard.   Corey Joseph, even though he is in the NBA, is just not very good.  I could go on on this topic.  

Edited May 4, 2022 by Free kick

[Free kick]

3 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

Yah actually our last try kinda had everyone except I think Jamal Murray and it was a big failure. Lost to Slovenia. A country of maybe 5 million people 

I think Ancelotti could be our next coach but Herdman is here until 2026 and then im pretty sure he'll be 100% gone. So we'll see in 4 years

No, it was the Czech republic.   SLOVENIA got Luca Doncic to play and he single handedly got then to the win the qualifying tourny and even reach the semi finals at the olympics.   Thats what one guy can do in Basketball.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Free kick

[EJsens1]

2 hours ago, Free kick said:

It was incredible that this side lost to the Czech Republic.  Their top player was considered journeyman NbA player or borderline NBA player.   There were injuries (Jamal Murray) and there were one or two NBA’ers that could have been unsefull but irrespective of that, the team Canada had was far superior talentwise to what the Czech’s had.   And they still lost.  The NBA players like Wiggins, when they show up for canada, they perform very well.   
 

In the last Olympic qualifying we were missing a point guard.   Corey Joseph, even though he is in the NBA, is just not very good.  I could go on on this topic.  

They should have gotten it done, but they were missing more than just Murray. With the exception of the US team, in almost every sport you can’t just show up 3 days before and ‘poof’ let’s go get-’em!! That’s why Nick Nurse has divided up a 3 year plan and commitment for Paris at the ‘26 Games. You’re in now or beat it. 

For arguments sake, if Herdman were to leave, I’d prefer he’d leave right after Qatar. Let the new person, in this case Ancelloti, cement himself in the position. I think a huge incentive for a so called named coach to come here would be in ‘24 if the rumours of a Copa America/Gold Cup merger were to come to fruition. If that were to occur, then lead into hosting a World Cup, there would be a lot of candidates I believe. 

[Free kick]

1 hour ago, EJsens1 said:

They should have gotten it done, but they were missing more than just Murray. With the exception of the US team, in almost every sport you can’t just show up 3 days before and ‘poof’ let’s go get-’em!! That’s why Nick Nurse has divided up a 3 year plan and commitment for Paris at the ‘26 Games. You’re in now or beat it. 

By the way,  There is whole thread on this topic in the General off-topic Discussions section.  But yes, they were missing more than just Murray, like a true point guard most IMHO. They had to use Nickel Alexander Walker who is very much inexperienced and more of SG than a PG.  they shot on 24% from the 3pt line in that game versus 47% for the czechs, so thye could have uses a Dillon Brooks.  And even a true big man, Dwight Powell is good but is more of a 4.  

The mess they got into can be attributable to the unfair draw they got at the last WC.  And everything that cascaded from that.   Not to rehash my thoughts on what put in that thread. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Free kick

[Unnamed Trialist]

9 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Just for fun, let's respond to the points. 

First, it is not about a trade at all, Ancelloti is assuming he'll get to stay a bit more at Real Madrid and also seems to believe Herdman may not last long at Canada. If we are lucky, and we do well, then Herdman will get offers.

1-basically agree.

2-possibly true, and that is the charm: could a top coach like Ancelloti do better?

3-Ancelloti does not bitch, he's probably the most even-keel of the top coaches in the world. He has a very non aggressive character and tends to believe a lot in his players, relying on their capacity to interpret what's on the field. In the recent interview with Valdano he explained this in relation to his father, a dairy farmer, and his earlier coaches, who were all quiet understated men.

4-Ancelloti, considering what he has won, is at least as humble as Herdman. You obviously have never heard him speak or seen him work; and then Herdman, don't think humble is the virtue we are looking for. He explains he started with a 4-4-2 because that is what he played, and then only slowly began to adjust to his players' capacities and profiles. So he adjusts, and you can't say any of his teams were old-fashioned, including the present one. He just doesn't create an intellectualised discourse around how his teams play, not his manner.

5-you repeated point 3. But in any case, big clubs too have pressure, have weirdness, have to deal with outside bs like agents, I doubt he'd find CSA amateurness an extraordinary issue.

6-Ancelloti has most certainly not done anything with a national team, as Herdman has not done a thing with a club (and, if you push, has not done that much so far with our NT). That is a clear ambition.

7-Age is not a problem for a team that in a normal year plays 15 matches maximum, when he is used to being on a team that plays up to 60.

Perhaps the hidden gem: he's looking at Jonathan David for Real Madrid and thinking about coaching him for our NT going forward.

This eve's events corroborate if you watched, just saying.

[zxcvbnm]

I'd take Ancelotti over Herdman any day, from a pure footballing point of view it's an obvious choice. He is arguably one of the greatest managers the game has seen.

It is a possibility that Herdman will not be with Canada when we approach the 2026 World Cup. I think this timeline lines up perfectly with a position for Ancelotti. Four years seems a long time but it's actually not that far away, if we're assuming he manages another season or two with Real Madrid. 

By no means do I dislike Herdman, he has done wonders for our program. But after Qatar, he could have a few job offers and bigger opportunities. I think he's done his job - an excellent one, at building a good foundation and structure from grassroots. However we need to take that next step in order to become a stronger footballing powerhouse, whether it be Ancelotti or someone else. 

And for everyone saying this is a retirement job for him, I disagree. I'd like to believe he is ambitious to try a new challenge, considering the number of titles he's won across the top 5 leagues in Europe. And age is hardly an issue for a national team coaching role...

Edited May 5, 2022 by zxcvbnm

[narduch]

Have to give Ancelotti credit. Will be cheering for his team in the CL final

[GasPed]

On 5/3/2022 at 7:35 AM, dyslexic nam said:

I am in no rush to oust Herdman but this is nice to have as a possible back pocket option to pursue if Herdman ever sees greener pastures elsewhere.  

This is hilarious.

Me 7 months ago:  "Herdman is totally unproven as a tactician and a team builder, but I guess we're stuck with him at least for this cycle.  Sigh."

Me today:  "Carlo who?  Meh... ...guess he might be an ok backup option."

[QBCS]

The fact this is even a conversation is mind boggling

[dyslexic nam]

5 hours ago, QBCS said:

The fact this is even a conversation is mind boggling

Not really.  No one is bashing Herdman or ready to show him the exit.   Well, maybe @SpecialK a little bit.  But the rest of us fully support him and his continued tenure.   Full stop.   He helped get us to the WC and that is massive.  Now let’s see what he can do there.

But when a world class coach (and CA is in an absolutely elite group of coaches) has a connection to Canada and specifically references the possibility of coaching our Nats at some point down the road, it would be silly not to give it some level of attention.

Herdman may see greener pastures elsewhere at some point.  As other have pointed out, be jettisoned the women’s team when a better opportunity arose.  And no one blames him for that.  Well, maybe @SpecialKa little bit.  But it is business and things happen.  It would be extremely shortsighted of folks in the Canadian footy establishment to not think about this as a viable back pocket option in case Herdman decides his future lies elsewhere.  He may stick around until post-2026WC or he may not.  But there is nothing to be gained from us not discussing a plan B.  

[InglewoodJack]

On 5/4/2022 at 12:48 PM, Free kick said:

It was incredible that this side lost to the Czech Republic.  Their top player was considered journeyman NbA player or borderline NBA player.   There were injuries (Jamal Murray) and there were one or two NBA’ers that could have been useful but irrespective of that, the team Canada had was far superior talentwise to what the Czech’s had.   And they still lost.  The NBA players like Wiggins, when they show up for canada, they perform very well.   
 

In the last Olympic qualifying we were missing a point guard.   Corey Joseph, even though he is in the NBA, is just not very good.  I could go on on this topic.  

We lost to Czech Republic for the pure reason that the only big on our roster was Dwight Powell while CR started two 7’0 guys, let alone whoever they had on the bench. I wouldn’t discount euroleague players especially in these one and some games. Because Canada had never even had one scrimmage prior to the tournament, those guys basically had to slow down Andrew Wiggins doing his best MJ impression and RJ Barrett shooting like he’s Steph curry. I wish international basketball was more important, because so many of our guys sat out due to covid restrictions being tricky, late season fatigue and also many were in contract years. SGA and Murray were injured, but guys like Dillon brooks, Brandon Clarke, Chris Boucher, Kelly Olynyk, even Khem Birch could’ve helped us get pretty deep into the Olympics. Had we qualified, I wouldn’t be surprised if SGA decided to join the team.

[GasPed]

34 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

But when a world class coach (and CA is in an absolutely elite group of coaches) has a connection to Canada and specifically references the possibility of coaching our Nats at some point down the road, it would be silly not to give it some level of attention.

I think that's his point - i.e. the fact that Ancelotti is even being brought up as a possible successor is mind-boggling.  This is a manager who has literally won everything, and is still doing it at the highest levels.  A year ago we were ranked 72nd in the world.  It's really quite mind-boggling.

[dyslexic nam]

2 hours ago, GasPed said:

I think that's his point - i.e. the fact that Ancelotti is even being brought up as a possible successor is mind-boggling.  This is a manager who has literally won everything, and is still doing it at the highest levels.  A year ago we were ranked 72nd in the world.  It's really quite mind-boggling.

Ah.  If so then I definitely misinterpreted.  I thought it was about loyalty to Herdman.  

[Free kick]

4 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

We lost to Czech Republic for the pure reason that the only big on our roster was Dwight Powell while CR started two 7’0 guys, let alone whoever they had on the bench. I wouldn’t discount euroleague players especially in these one and some games. Because Canada had never even had one scrimmage prior to the tournament, those guys basically had to slow down Andrew Wiggins doing his best MJ impression and RJ Barrett shooting like he’s Steph curry. I wish international basketball was more important, because so many of our guys sat out due to covid restrictions being tricky, late season fatigue and also many were in contract years. SGA and Murray were injured, but guys like Dillon brooks, Brandon Clarke, Chris Boucher, Kelly Olynyk, even Khem Birch could’ve helped us get pretty deep into the Olympics. Had we qualified, I wouldn’t be surprised if SGA decided to join the team.

Yes. Much in line with my post here right after the loss to the czech’s.  Here   Were my thoughts at the time:

 

“Where to start.  This is one of the toughest ones to figure out and i am not sure i have.  When you have this much more talent than the opposition, and it happens again (just like against Venezuela in 2015). Its hard to figure out and explain, It just shouldnt happen.   The Czechs had one very average NBA player and thats it but he was huge influence on his team.   But a couple of things i mentioned three days ago as possible deltas ended up looming large:  

1) the lack of true big man up front.  This explains why they got badly out rebounded.  Meaning that they were not able to get out in transition and use their superior athleticism to get the easy baskets.  
2) A measly 24% shooting from a three point line versus 47% for the Czechs.   This is where a Dillon Brooks was missed.
3) The Cory Joseph factor.  As mentioned many times here,  they have serious problem and dilema with this.  What to do when you have a guy who plays a position that is so important in international basketball, has been so loyal to show up when several others dont or cant, but that you realise that you are a much better team when when he is not there.  He was glaring minus 21 today. By far the worst of any player on the floor.  He was dribbling around the ball by himself and not initiating any ball movement.   Nickiel Alexander-Walker was good and  drained some important shots but he is more of combo guard.  Not a true point guard.   As i said many times here.  This team has looked like world beaters when players like Pangos,  Phil Scrubb,  Jamal Murray (ie:  at the Pan Am games) etc are playing the one spot.  The flip side of that dilema is that those players that do show up only occasion but are regarded as the top talent, well theyactually deliver as promised ( if not, more than promised).   But ifthey would have been there at the WC two years, then we wouldalready qualified for the Olympics and wouldnt have had to play inthis tournament. Hence, the never ending catch 22.”

[An Observer]

4 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

We lost to Czech Republic for the pure reason that the only big on our roster was Dwight Powell while CR started two 7’0 guys, let alone whoever they had on the bench. I wouldn’t discount euroleague players especially in these one and some games. Because Canada had never even had one scrimmage prior to the tournament, those guys basically had to slow down Andrew Wiggins doing his best MJ impression and RJ Barrett shooting like he’s Steph curry. I wish international basketball was more important, because so many of our guys sat out due to covid restrictions being tricky, late season fatigue and also many were in contract years. SGA and Murray were injured, but guys like Dillon brooks, Brandon Clarke, Chris Boucher, Kelly Olynyk, even Khem Birch could’ve helped us get pretty deep into the Olympics. Had we qualified, I wouldn’t be surprised if SGA decided to join the team.

This is my point.  Basketball Canada couldn’t get a slew of our NBA players to commit for various reasons. Do you think fatigue hasn’t been a factor for our guys during qualifying? They have been flying half way around the world for a year and playing in often brutal conditions and then flying back to play for their club sides.  Frankly, I think it’s contributed a bit to some now being out of form. And all of this was during Covid.  
Those trash talking basketball players couldn’t be bothered to show up for a short tournament in the off season in one venue at home.  Jeez Louise

[An Observer]

26 minutes ago, Free kick said:

  But ifthey would have been there at the WC two years, then we wouldalready qualified for the Olympics and wouldnt have had to play inthis tournament. Hence, the never ending catch 22.”

Yeah. I planned to go to that as it was across the border from HK where I live in and around Guangzhou and Shenzhen. Then I found out that only 2 of our NBA players could be bothered to show up so I couldn’t be bothered to show up to watch them