Jump to content

Luc de Fougerolles


canuckgbp

Recommended Posts

Corbeanu is an extremely valuable prospect. Arguably our best one at the moment and deserves a CMNT call up.

Millar would be a star for canada if not for our depth at attacking positions and a formation that doesnt suit him. He still is likely to play a big role for a long time with CMNT. 

JKL is a great prospect but is only 18 (same as LDF). Hes essentially doing what LDF is doing but at a lower level. It's not fair to compare LDF to a guy whos his age but a worse player as a justification as to why LDF bench appearances arent great. Has JKL made the bench in a season match even? 

Justin smith - same as JKL. He's doing the LDF but at a lower level. Nice doesnt have the same squad depth that fulham has. 

Basically the examples above either prove that the players are worthwhile to be excitede about (millar and corbeanu) or its still to early to tell/the players are not LDF level prospects. 

Finally, the big kicker is how LDF performed in preseason matches. He was clearly at the level of the first team in these games. He's also won the youth talent of the year at fulham. 

The credentials of bombito, LMN, waterman, ZMG, heibert are essentially very little to moderate MLS experience and  extremely limited CMNT experience.

The credentials of LDF is the best academy player at fulham, played against full premier leagues best teams and looked well, and making the bench of a premier league team vs the best team in the league. 

I find it hard not to say the bench appearance says more than waterman playing against TFC. 

Edited by Bigandy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

JKL is a great prospect but is only 18 (same as LDF). Hes essentially doing what LDF is doing but at a lower level. It's not fair to compare LDF to a guy whos his age but a worse player as a justification as to why LDF bench appearances arent great. Has JKL made the bench in a season match even? 

Been following this. He has, actually. He was on the bench yesterday vs Ipswich and vs Coventry on the weekend. It's impressive and something to monitor. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

I find it hard not to say the bench appearance says more than waterman playing against TFC. 

You're allowed to make an argument without diminishing accomplishments of other players. He has 100+ appearances for Montreal. Not one appearance against the worst team in the league 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/25/2023 at 11:51 AM, Obinna said:

I think LDF was a victim of Biello going into preservation mode as you say. On the other hand though, he did put on Brym later in the game and Japan had taken their foot off the pedal by then, so......

I'm not even going to try and make sense of the changes anymore. They appear to just be decided on randomly. I wish we had capped LDF for exactly the reason you point out (there was no coming back), but all we can do now is hope he is still interested and gets a cap in soon. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

You're allowed to make an argument without diminishing accomplishments of other players. He has 100+ appearances for Montreal. Not one appearance against the worst team in the league 

I dont think its diminishing watermans accomplishments but rather comparing the two (granted picking TFC as an example shows poorly but TFC is interchangeable with any MLS team over those 100+ appearances). I would argue that waterman is the benchmark for a CB who wants to be on CMNT. You have to be better than waterman to get a call up. It's great to have him in the pool but hes not currently a guy who raises our ceiling and just reaches the floor of the CMNT. 

Comparing LDF is tough because we are basing his youth performances, assumed coaching perceptions of him, and preseason form. 

I believe we have to compare the guys to see how far off LDF is or isnt. 

Waterman is interchangable as an example with LMN or heibert. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

I'm not even going to try and make sense of the changes anymore. They appear to just be decided on randomly. I wish we had capped LDF for exactly the reason you point out (there was no coming back), but all we can do now is hope he is still interested and gets a cap in soon. 

Im fully convinced LDF was never going to get capped and thats why he accepted a call up. It makes 0 sense for him to accept a cap tie so early and in a friendly. If he gets called up for the jamaica games then, theres a chance he is open to a cap tie but I cant see him coming. 

IMO this is the best we could hope for at this stage. If we force a cynical cap tie, it could sour him and he just files a one time switch. This way, we show him we want him and wont screw him over. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Bigandy said:
8 minutes ago, DeRo_Is_King said:

I'm not even going to try and make sense of the changes anymore. They appear to just be decided on randomly. I wish we had capped LDF for exactly the reason you point out (there was no coming back), but all we can do now is hope he is still interested and gets a cap in soon. 

Expand  

Im fully convinced LDF was never going to get capped and thats why he accepted a call up. It makes 0 sense for him to accept a cap tie so early and in a friendly. If he gets called up for the jamaica games then, theres a chance he is open to a cap tie but I cant see him coming. 

IMO this is the best we could hope for at this stage. If we force a cynical cap tie, it could sour him and he just files a one time switch. This way, we show him we want him and wont screw him over. 

Yes. Just for clarity, I figured he wouldn't be capped. My point is it would have been nice, but it didn't seem likely. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I dont think its diminishing watermans accomplishments but rather comparing the two (granted picking TFC as an example shows poorly but TFC is interchangeable with any MLS team over those 100+ appearances). I would argue that waterman is the benchmark for a CB who wants to be on CMNT. You have to be better than waterman to get a call up. It's great to have him in the pool but hes not currently a guy who raises our ceiling and just reaches the floor of the CMNT. 

Comparing LDF is tough because we are basing his youth performances, assumed coaching perceptions of him, and preseason form. 

I believe we have to compare the guys to see how far off LDF is or isnt. 

Waterman is interchangable as an example with LMN or heibert. 

If your point is that you consider a bench premier league appearance to be more  valuable than being an MLS starter, I disagree. If your point is that LDF deserves a call because he's a highly rated prospect, I won't argue. Regardless, why compare one bench appearance to one MLS match when there is so much more to consider 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

If your point is that you consider a bench premier league appearance to be more  valuable than being an MLS starter, I disagree. If your point is that LDF deserves a call because he's a highly rated prospect, I won't argue. Regardless, why compare one bench appearance to one MLS match when there is so much more to consider 

We can look at this from different angles.

1- Waterman has been playing regularly.  He's fresh and up to speed, no game rust.

2- LDF has not played a match in a while, however he has so much more potential.

3- Waterman would never find himself on the bench for a premier league team.

4- If current eye test and trajectories continue, 2 years from now, this will be no contest.  LDF should be starting every match for us, but he needs to be playing at his club.  

Doesn't change the dilema: Short term, we need to play our best vs Jamaica.  Long term we need to cap LDF.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Aird25 said:

If your point is that you consider a bench premier league appearance to be more  valuable than being an MLS starter, I disagree. If your point is that LDF deserves a call because he's a highly rated prospect, I won't argue. Regardless, why compare one bench appearance to one MLS match when there is so much more to consider 

I agree and have said a bunch of the various factors as to the comparison, not just one appearance to one appearance. Who is currently the better player? Without having seen them go toe to toe, I would say LDF is. I dont think hes in our tier 1 (miller, cornelius, AJ?, vitoria) list of CBs or even tier 2(bombito, zmg, kennedy), but I would say hes probably around a tier 3 level. 

The bench appearance shows hes been training with the first team and hes playing in youth competitions so I dont think rust is an issue. If you look at the quality he showed in preseason, he was clearly at a much higher level than waterman has ever played at. LDF has more experience against jamaicas front line than waterman. 

Waterman struggled hard against bahrain, do i think hes improved, yes. Do I trust him against jamaica? no. Do I trust LDF? No. I think hes already surpassed waterman/heibert/LMN/Zator on merit though (although I'm not advocating for starting an untested 18 year old over those other guys). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

I agree and have said a bunch of the various factors as to the comparison, not just one appearance to one appearance. Who is currently the better player? Without having seen them go toe to toe, I would say LDF is. I dont think hes in our tier 1 (miller, cornelius, AJ?, vitoria) list of CBs or even tier 2(bombito, zmg, kennedy), but I would say hes probably around a tier 3 level. 

The bench appearance shows hes been training with the first team and hes playing in youth competitions so I dont think rust is an issue. If you look at the quality he showed in preseason, he was clearly at a much higher level than waterman has ever played at. LDF has more experience against jamaicas front line than waterman. 

Waterman struggled hard against bahrain, do i think hes improved, yes. Do I trust him against jamaica? no. Do I trust LDF? No. I think hes already surpassed waterman/heibert/LMN/Zator on merit though (although I'm not advocating for starting an untested 18 year old over those other guys). 

I disagree with your rankings but I do hope less experienced players like LDF and Bombito pass some of the others soon. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, PastPros said:

Surpassed on 'merit'? So he earned it?

The dude hasn't even played a pro game.

I'll happily take the guy with 130+ pro games over the guy with 0, even if he is not as skilled. 

merit based as in skill based. 

I would take a guy like yamal at barca before he played any pro games over a guy like shaff. Obviously I am using a dramatic example to prove my point, but I would say LDF is better player than waterman or heibert. I dont really trust any of the 3 in an important match and would go with a guy like ZMG. 

However, my question is that if I have 2 centerbacks that I dont trust, would I put in the more talented player with less expereince or a less talented with experiences.  For me, i go with the better player since theres no trust either way. If you trust one or both of them, it becomes a different story (the ZMG example). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, costarg said:

We can look at this from different angles.

1- Waterman has been playing regularly.  He's fresh and up to speed, no game rust.

2- LDF has not played a match in a while, however he has so much more potential.

3- Waterman would never find himself on the bench for a premier league team.

4- If current eye test and trajectories continue, 2 years from now, this will be no contest.  LDF should be starting every match for us, but he needs to be playing at his club.  

Doesn't change the dilema: Short term, we need to play our best vs Jamaica.  Long term we need to cap LDF.

5- Waterman and Miller already played more than 60 games together

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, PastPros said:

Surpassed on 'merit'? So he earned it?

The dude hasn't even played a pro game.

I'll happily take the guy with 130+ pro games over the guy with 0, even if he is not as skilled. 

IMO, I don't think any of our ~replacement level CBs are going to do us any favours against good teams in any case- outside of Miller, Cornelius, Johnston, and less so Vitoria, none of our CBs are playable against good teams- I don't see how LDF makes us any worse against a ~top 30 country than guys like ZMG, Kennedy, Hiebert, Zator, Waterman, so on. I disagree that he's earned it "on merit", and there's a lot to be said about the experience a player gets from simply playing against pros, but I just think CB isn't a position we can do much worse in, so whereas with Koleosho (and Tom McGill) there was always the argument that any free minutes given to him are minutes taken from a player who is already good and will get better, whereas I can't imagine us being much worse with LDF over most of our other options.

The way I see it, you start off with Miller, Cornelius, and AJ at the back against Jamaica, and you probably play them all 90 because that's what your CBs are supposed to do. If we fall way back, it's not like subbing on any other CB will turn the game around, and if we're way up, it's not like LDF would lose us a game that the others wouldn't, so worth a shot. I just don't think any of our other centre backs are difference makers in any way, not to discredit their contributions to the national team and their commitment in playing for us. Just don't think we have much to lose by playing him.

Edited by InglewoodJack
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, jordan said:

Not with the U21's today

could we see him with the first team again? Diop and adarabioyo are currently injured, ream is 36, and bassey is likely to go to african cup of nations. Obviously, not all of these factors happen at once, but surely fulham is aware that they may need some additional CB depth. I could see LDF making his debut in a cup match this season. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Seriously? Five years ago I would have been absolutely thrilled to even have MLS starting CBs on the roster, let alone not receiving calls

Would have said that pretty much every position! Such has been the explosion of Canadian talent getting opportunities and minutes in the MLS. I still can't believe the growth of numbers. It's only growing!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Aird25 said:

What are you talking about now? You said you couldn't see it getting worse. I'm saying it's almost always been much worse. 

Can’t get any worse isn’t about where we were five years ago, it’s about our present depth and the fact that we have very few centre back options that can hold their own against very good national teams. I don’t think it matters whether we get scored on because Zack McGraw got blown by or if LDF makes a rookie mistake. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...