League 1 Alberta/Prairies

[Obinna]

A side point on the 16 clubs I proposed, which would include 4 CPL reserve sides (Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon and Winnipeg)....

You really don't want to do any more than that. Too many teams waters down the quality of the league. The population of the entire prairies is like 6.5 million, basically the GTA. Unlike the GTA however, a lot of that population is not urban. Discount the rural population and that number probably shrinks to a bit more than 4 million, so more like the Greater Montreal area. Now, how many PLSQ teams are based in the Montreal area? I know it's not 16 teams.

You really need to find a balance between having too many teams and too few teams, because you also want enough teams in smaller locations as to make the travel easier by having nodes to connect the bigger market teams. For example, having Red Deer in an Alberta league eases the travel for both the Edmonton and Calgary teams, as it is almost exactly in the middle between them.

Anyways, I think 16 is the absolute maximum.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Obinna

[Ansem]

7 hours ago, Obinna said:

yet Quebec has no teams from the Maritimes, at least not yet. My guess is they won't for the foreseeable future.

There are Maritimes teams in the Quebec league

Edited June 28, 2022 by Ansem

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

There are Maritimes teams in the Quebec league

I meant the PLSQ.

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I meant the PLSQ.

oups my bad - caffeine level is too low.

I'll go back in my box

[Obinna]

Just now, Ansem said:

oups my bad - caffeine level is too low.

I'll go back in my box

All good. I re-read my post and see how it could be confusing. I was trying to say that WHL is being used to justify why a central league 1 could work, but by that same logic we should have a PLSQ expanding out to the maritime. Since that hasn’t happened I am skepital it would work out west. 

The difference between the CHL leagues is that teams comparatively have huge budgets due to ticket and jersey sales. League 1 teams cannot be compared to that.

I remember the fog devils in St. John’s. They were really popular and sold a bunch of merchandise and sold most of the 6000 tickets for game day and the city was starving for hockey at the time, yet they folded after a few seasons because of the travel. If that wasn’t viable how in the world could flying from Winnipeg to Alberta work, let alone Thunder Bay? 

[Obinna]

My opinion is they should start with just Alberta and deal with Sask-toba later. You want these League 1 divisions to be solid and you want to limit the risk of stretching yourself too far. These should be bus leagues. I read in the League 1 Ontario thread that Windsor having to travel 6-10 hours both ways is difficult. Try 12 hours both ways from Calgary to Saskatoon and back. 

You have to walk before you can run.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Obinna

[Obinna]

Sasktoba League 1 has a good ring to it as well, doesn’t it? Or is it just me who likes it? Several years ago I was taking in the national all star championships (saw Jordan Hamilton for team Ontario by the way) and for that particular edition they had combined Manitoba and Saskatchewan and branded them as “Sasktoba”. I really liked that and I try to throw it out anytime I am talking about joint soccer ventures between the 2 provinces. 

Such a league would be tough travel wise, but it’s far more doable than going from Manitoba to Alberta. Probably from the Saskatchewan perspective you may prefer to be tethered to Alberta instead of Winnipeg, as the travel is similar but there are more teams to play against, but then you kind of leave Manitoba out on an island by itself, so to speak. It’s a conundrum for sure.

[Obinna]

Is it a stretch to throw Brandon into the mix here? Population is 50k, but they do have several colleges and a university to draw from and they do support the wheat kings. It is almost half way between Regina and Winnipeg, so that would make travel easier. In fact, winnipeg, Brandon, Regina and Saskatoon all appear to be roughly 250 km from each other, if you know what I mean. Travel seems better with Brandon than without it.

maybe @Bison44 can speak to Brandon and whether that’s feesable or just pie in the sky. Do they have much of a soccer scene? I assume Winnipeg dominates all things Manitoba soccer.

[Kent]

41 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Sasktoba League 1 has a good ring to it as well, doesn’t it? Or is it just me who likes it? Several years ago I was taking in the national all star championships (saw Jordan Hamilton for team Ontario by the way) and for that particular edition they had combined Manitoba and Saskatchewan and branded them as “Sasktoba”. I really liked that and I try to throw it out anytime I am talking about joint soccer ventures between the 2 provinces. 

Such a league would be tough travel wise, but it’s far more doable than going from Manitoba to Alberta. Probably from the Saskatchewan perspective you may prefer to be tethered to Alberta instead of Winnipeg, as the travel is similar but there are more teams to play against, but then you kind of leave Manitoba out on an island by itself, so to speak. It’s a conundrum for sure.

Mankatchewan sounds funnier (and more misleading) though. I'm tempted to go with it for the lols.

[EnigMattic1]

On 5/10/2022 at 2:39 PM, Unnamed Trialist said:

The Chill are in a division with an 11 hour drive to one rival, Peoria. Des Moines is over 9 away. Tough. 

Mind you, Winnipeg is almost 8 hrs away and any place further in Canada would be even further than their most distant rival in USL2. So their division makes sense for them with the Minnesota-Iowa

There is probably no decent solution for the Chill.

Mind you, Winnipeg to Edmonton is longer than any of those trips too, so you either find a sponsor to fly, or really are not in a position to be imagining a viable L1 for all the Prairies. Maybe it has to be Alberta separately, get up to 6-8 teams.

Comparing, the furthest trip as we stand in L1BC is Victoria, bus to catch a ferry, then just under 4 hours more to Kamloops, but you still could be under 7 hours in total. And the ferry is your "stop", it's a meal and players walking about, totally different. If Nanaimo comes in, and more teams in the interior, then you have a viable L1 in terms of cost of travel.

Not quite the same, but Thunder Bay Chill have a youth team (u17 I think) in one of the Winnipeg Youth Soccer Association leagues. It still blows my mind that the senior team plays in the States and a youth team plays in Winnipeg.

[EnigMattic1]

On 6/28/2022 at 5:50 AM, Obinna said:

A side point on the 16 clubs I proposed, which would include 4 CPL reserve sides (Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon and Winnipeg)....

You really don't want to do any more than that. Too many teams waters down the quality of the league. The population of the entire prairies is like 6.5 million, basically the GTA. Unlike the GTA however, a lot of that population is not urban. Discount the rural population and that number probably shrinks to a bit more than 4 million, so more like the Greater Montreal area. Now, how many PLSQ teams are based in the Montreal area? I know it's not 16 teams.

You really need to find a balance between having too many teams and too few teams, because you also want enough teams in smaller locations as to make the travel easier by having nodes to connect the bigger market teams. For example, having Red Deer in an Alberta league eases the travel for both the Edmonton and Calgary teams, as it is almost exactly in the middle between them.

Anyways, I think 16 is the absolute maximum.

Due to the lack of a youth/reserve system in the CPL, I am surprised that the CPL teams don't have a reserve side in the League1 leagues. Although, reading what I have, I get the impression that the CPL wants to "go it alone". Honestly, would working with League1 Canada and having reserve sides playing at a decent level be a bad thing?

Of course, there could also be the argument that CPL teams would then try and snap up the promising players, resulting in their development stagnating (Think Chelsea in the Premier League) and thus having a negative effect on League1 teams in general.

[Unnamed Trialist]

52 minutes ago, EnigMattic1 said:

Due to the lack of a youth/reserve system in the CPL, I am surprised that the CPL teams don't have a reserve side in the League1 leagues. Although, reading what I have, I get the impression that the CPL wants to "go it alone". Honestly, would working with League1 Canada and having reserve sides playing at a decent level be a bad thing?

Of course, there could also be the argument that CPL teams would then try and snap up the promising players, resulting in their development stagnating (Think Chelsea in the Premier League) and thus having a negative effect on League1 teams in general.

I fully agree. If we had u-18s  from CPL clubs competing in League 1s, that would be a big step up. Or u-19, but not much older, as the point is to have an academy that grows talent and then the CPL with its youth rules.

[EnigMattic1]

30 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I fully agree. If we had u-18s  from CPL clubs competing in League 1s, that would be a big step up. Or u-19, but not much older, as the point is to have an academy that grows talent and then the CPL with its youth rules.

I may be wrong, but don't Cavalry have an active u20 side? I'm sure I read that Edmonton closed their academy due to their financial situation.

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, EnigMattic1 said:

Due to the lack of a youth/reserve system in the CPL, I am surprised that the CPL teams don't have a reserve side in the League1 leagues. Although, reading what I have, I get the impression that the CPL wants to "go it alone". Honestly, would working with League1 Canada and having reserve sides playing at a decent level be a bad thing?

Of course, there could also be the argument that CPL teams would then try and snap up the promising players, resulting in their development stagnating (Think Chelsea in the Premier League) and thus having a negative effect on League1 teams in general.

 

12 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I fully agree. If we had u-18s  from CPL clubs competing in League 1s, that would be a big step up. Or u-19, but not much older, as the point is to have an academy that grows talent and then the CPL with its youth rules.

I think it's just a matter of time. The league was only launched in 2019 and in 2020 it was quasi-shut down when the government decided to shut down movement and economic activity in response to the covid pandemic, so that was a lost year.

2021 was really the sophmore season for the league but considering all the disturbances I imagine the focus was more on the first teams, making sure they are successful, and less on setting up the reserve sides.

Despite this Cavalry and Edmonton have been rolling out U-20 sides in the AMSL, which is close as you can get to a "League 1" level in the province. Looking at the tables, they have been respectable, middle of the pack teams, which tells me U-18 sides would not fare well against AMSL teams, let alone League 1 Central teams (if and when that league comes to fruition, I still hope to see an Alberta League 1 instead).

Not plugged into what's going on in League 1 BC, League 1 Ontario, or PLSQ (soon to be rebranded as League 1 Quebec), but the Whitecaps Academy (3rd team?) are in 3rd place, while the CF Montreal U23s (2nd team) are 7/12 in the PLSQ.

It's hard to judge the levels of different League 1s but with time they should all be roughly the same, and yes ideally the CPL reserve sides should play there, along with the MLS acadmy sides (the level below the reserve sides), but I think we are going to be waiting at least another 5 years before all if this gets sorted out, including the League 1 system finally settling into a groove.

[Obinna]

Just now, EnigMattic1 said:

I may be wrong, but don't Cavalry have an active u20 side? I'm sure I read that Edmonton closed their academy due to their financial situation.

They do. I just addressed that in my last post, which coincidently I made at the same time you asked.

[EnigMattic1]

Just now, Obinna said:

They do. I just addressed that in my last post, which coincidently I made at the same time you asked.

Yeah, I was just replying. It just seems crazy when a League1 Ontario side can have a team at various different levels, but the CPL is senior only. Surely, using a reserve team in the likes of League1 would not only benefit the CPL, but also raise the level of League1 (to an extent) and benefit the game in Canada as a whole?

I do agree with what you said regarding the "disturbances" though. I mean, nobody could have predicted the pandemic and this is the first full season without interruptions or restrictions so to speak. I am still impressed that they were able to set up L1BC and get the likes of Simcoe and Electric City into L1O during that.

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, EnigMattic1 said:

Yeah, I was just replying. It just seems crazy when a League1 Ontario side can have a team at various different levels, but the CPL is senior only. Surely, using a reserve team in the likes of League1 would not only benefit the CPL, but also raise the level of League1 (to an extent) and benefit the game in Canada as a whole?

I do agree with what you said regarding the "disturbances" though. I mean, nobody could have predicted the pandemic and this is the first full season without interruptions or restrictions so to speak. I am still impressed that they were able to set up L1BC and get the likes of Simcoe and Electric City into L1O during that.

Yeah me too. I actually think the League 1 level is progressing nicely given all that we've been through.

And I agree it's an oddity that semi-pro teams in League 1 Ontario have reserve teams when fully professional clubs like Forge and York United do not (to my knowledge). I just assume they will in due course once the dust settles a bit more. To be fair many of the League 1 clubs have been around far longer than CPL has existed.

In the meantime, Forge and York specifically lay at the center of the most populous region in Canada, and there are many, many players who can be scouted and lured directly to the CPL first teams straight out of League 1 Ontario. That may kill the incentive to develop a reserve side of your own in the short term.

By contrast, Edmonton and Calgary are pretty large centers by Canadian standards, but they have nowhere near the population of the golden horseshoe, nor can they lean on a provincial League 1 with 22 teams, where you can scout and pick up talent easily (I imagine). In otherwords, the Alberta CPL clubs need those reserve teams more, that's why they cropped up earlier in my opinion.

Fortunately for the Alberta teams, there are strong enough teams in the AMSL (or even the Premier Divisions in Calgary and Edmonton) to give CPL reserve teams a good run out, but not enough where they can rest on their laurels and rely on scooping local players up. I think they need to get them in a system earlier than their Ontario counterparts, perhaps.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Obinna

[rydermike]

The CPL owns League1 Ontario, don't they? In one sense I feel like the whole league is viewed as the reserve team for the Ontario teams. A few players have been call-ups already from various teams. Vaughan had Orlendis Benítez and Gianluca Catalano and Scrosoppi had Cyrus Rollocks join York on temporary basis. Forge has had a couple guys from Sigma. Last year, Atletico got a couple of guys from Ottawa SOUTH United (plsq). So the Ontario teams don't really need reserves if they view the league as the reserve team. It's also a way to have a bigger pool of players instead of one team only. Granted, it means you can't have them playing your system though. 

 

The fact that the L1O teams have reserve teams is no surprise. These are not teams that were established for L1O. They are already established youth teams with hundreds of players. They're not really reserve teams. They're the regular U21, U19, U18 teams which these clubs have always had. The players are just progressing from the teams year to year. Even the "new clubs" reserve clubs are probably teams from the partner youth team. Simcoe County Rovers' youth team is probably just Barrie SC's U21 team, which already existed. It's just the youth teams natural aging (ie. Their current U14 team will be their L1O reserve team in like 5 years) 

[shermanator]

As of right now, League1 Central is a long way from becoming a reality. Simply put, there aren’t enough clubs in this area of the country that are interested in putting the money and effort required into a league such as this.

Calgary Foothills ran their PDL / USL 2 club for years and set the standard in the NW Division, even when compared to the likes of the Sounders and Timbers U23 squad. FC Manitoba and Edmonton Scottish are both interested, but that’s it. And these clubs are a long way from Foothills in quality on the pitch (their AMSL side is a men's team, not a youth team) and infrastructure off it, although I believe Scottish now have a fieldhouse that rivals Foothills’. FC Edmonton aren’t paying the bills for their first team, so a reserve team is not even remotely in question right now. They don’t have a U20 club in AMSL anymore

The League1 Central exhibition series that is being used as a proof of concept has been somewhat of a joke; including Edmonton Scottish booking Foothills for a friendly and then backing out at the last minute as a large tournament that they hosted conflicted with the friendly.

If you can get 6-8 youth clubs who want to throw $250k a year at this thing then it can get off the ground. Until then, it’s a pipe dream.

[Obinna]

22 hours ago, shermanator said:

FC Manitoba and Edmonton Scottish are both interested, but that’s it. And these clubs are a long way from Foothills in quality on the pitch (their AMSL side is a men's team, not a youth team) and infrastructure off it, although I believe Scottish now have a fieldhouse that rivals Foothills’. 

It has been a few years since I have watched an Edmonton Scottish side, or a Foothills PDL side, but from I have seen in the past there was not a big difference in quality on the pitch. Not in my opinion anyways. 

The biggest difference is probably age. Teams like Edmonton Scottish, or Calgary Callies, often have older players, whereas Foothills are U-23.

Edmonton Green and Gold (and I suppose Calgary Dinos) are largely comprised of University players and alumni, so they tend to be slightly younger, but on the whole would be older than Foothills PDL (or I suppose I should be calling it USL League Two now, not PDL).

Edit:

I should add that I am not trying to take away from how Foothills dominated the NW division for years. They are generally standouts at that level, outperforming Sounders and Foothills U23 sides, as you mentioned.

My point is that AMSL teams would compete with Foothills in a Central League 1 no problem.

That's not to say they'd be better, I don't think so, but they'd be good enough to belong in the same division at least, just as those MLS U-23 sides rightfully belonged in the same division as Foothills U-23 and gave them some good competition. It's not as if Foothills would embarrass AMSL teams 10-0 on a consistent basis, if that's what you were suggesting.

It is true Foothills has way better organization and infrastructure, but it's encouraging to know Scottish have a fieldhouse of their own. Perhaps that signals their intent to be a major player whenever League 1 arrives in Alberta (and hopefully that's soon).

Edited July 8, 2022 by Obinna

[Kingston]

On 7/7/2022 at 4:40 PM, rydermike said:

The CPL owns League1 Ontario, don't they? In one sense I feel like the whole league is viewed as the reserve team for the Ontario teams.

Yes, this.  And not just for the Ontario teams (although it is easier for them).

[Watchmen]

 

[Obinna]

Happy to hear League 1 Praries/Central is seemingly going to be scrapped for the League 1 Alberta concept. I really believe the Wild Rose province can go it alone. The travel would be managable and the population can support it. Furthermore, the population seems to be ever-growing, so things should get easier with time, not more difficult. 

The question of Saskatchwean and Manitoba remains, but in due course it will be sorted out I am sure. 

[Bison44]

Ohhhhhhh Obinna, that wounds me.......oh the humanity!!!!   But it makes sense for all the reasons u mentioned, hopefully things will move along faster for AB than for SK after they had their exhibition series.  We are slowly filling in the bricks of the pyramid one by one eh?  

[Kent]

If this gets off the ground, and the Saskatoon CPL team does as well, then we will just be a CPL team in Quebec and a L1 league in Manitoba+Saskatchewan away from having representation in the L1C level for all 6 provinces with a population of at least 1 million, and the CPL level in the 7 most populous provinces. That would be soooooo satisfying.