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Have we morphed into the USA? Has the USA morphed into Mexico?


Obinna

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Oh Canada, Oh Baby!

That was truly an epic weekend for Canada soccer, with our undermanned national team pulling off another MASSIVE statement win against the States, amidst the bourgeoning backdrop of national pride and unity sweeping the country, showing the world that when the chips are down we never stop believing, and like those hundreds of thousands of Canadians in the streets from all backgrounds and walks of life, our players are certainly diverse: 

image.png.b257f5e70d7499f9175d057184cbf030.png

Yet they come together as one brotherhood, one family. ONE CANADA

As hard as the Americans tried to match our belief, our heart, and our fighting spirit, they couldn't do it. They couldn't do it back at BMO in 2019. They couldn't do it again on Sunday.

 

Now.....all of this has raised a big question....especially south of the boarder:

Have we morphed into 2000-2010 era USA? Has the USA morphed into 2000-2010 Mexico?

 

It's an ongoing discussion happening on BS and elsewhere on the internet. Here are some of the takes:

image.png.08634c9284d377f3c829508bdb302061.png

image.png.fac89525a47066fe5002697d32009140.png

image.png.f4dd0bde41d6b09b18b16ba68e67b743.png

 

So what do you all make of how each of our respective programs are trending at the moment?

 

For Canada, is it all down to two words: John Herdman (as Borjan would say)? 

He's obviously been instrumental in our evolution, no doubt about it.

 

What about the States?

Have they turned into the Mexico of old (i.e. pretty soccer that lacks results)?

What about their recent victories in Nations League and Gold Cup? Those games were won with heart after all, not pretty soccer.

Is it an overreaction to say the States are too Vanilla right now? And if that's deserved, what's behind it? Is there a fragile American mindset and is it a bigger problem than soccer, or can it be simply explained by poor leadership from the coach?

 

Share your thoughts here....

 

And Lets go Canada! Let's get another 3 points tomorrow and close this thing out!

True North Strong and Free! 

Edited by Obinna
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9 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Oh Canada, Oh Baby!

That was truly an epic weekend for Canada soccer, with our undermanned national team pulling off another MASSIVE statement win against the States, amidst the bourgeoning backdrop of national pride and unity sweeping the country, showing the world that when the chips are down we never stop believing, and like those hundreds of thousands of Canadians from all backgrounds and walks of life, our players are certainly diverse: 

image.png.b257f5e70d7499f9175d057184cbf030.png

Yet they come together as one brotherhood, one family. ONE CANADA

As hard as the Americans tried to match our belief, our heart, and our fighting spirit, they couldn't do it. They couldn't do it back at BMO in 2019. They couldn't do it again on Sunday.

 

Now.....all of this has raised a big question....especially south of the boarder:

Have we morphed into 2000-2010 era USA? Has the USA morphed into 2000-2010 Mexico?

 

It's an ongoing discussion happening on BS and elsewhere on the internet. Here are some of the takes:

image.png.08634c9284d377f3c829508bdb302061.png

image.png.fac89525a47066fe5002697d32009140.png

image.png.f4dd0bde41d6b09b18b16ba68e67b743.png

 

So what do you all make of how each of our respective programs are trending at the moment?

 

For Canada, is it all down to two words: John Herdman (as Borjan would say)? 

He's obviously been instrumental in our evolution, no doubt about it.

 

What about the States?

Have they turned into the Mexico of old (i.e. pretty soccer that lacks results)?

What about their recent victories in Nations League and Gold Cup? Those games were won with heart after all, not pretty soccer.

Is it an overreaction to say the States are too Vanilla right now? And if that's deserved, what's behind it? Is there a fragile American mindset and is it a bigger problem than soccer, or can it be simply explained by poor leadership from the coach?

 

Share your thoughts here....

 

And Lets go Canada! Let's get another 3 points tomorrow and close this thing out!

True North Strong and Free! 

Nietzche Is Dead may be on to something.  

friedrich nietzsche glitch GIF

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I can where someone would draw those conclusions, but I think one thing that is a staple of not only this team but across Canadians in non-hockey sports is that there is no easy route to get to the top. In order to get there you need to scratch and claw your way. Even if you're the best in your province, you won't command any respect when you go outside of Canada. These boys have to fight their way through the pyramids of other countries where they are no one's first priority. Even with our current success and the years to come, the opinion of Canadian's will improve for the next gen of players but it will not completely go away. That's part of what gives this team it's level of grit and brotherhood that we have that the Americans lack. I just think JH has done a great job of tapping into that mentality and making it our identity.

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6 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Oh Canada, Oh Baby!

That was truly an epic weekend for Canada soccer, with our undermanned national team pulling off another MASSIVE statement win against the States, amidst the bourgeoning backdrop of national pride and unity sweeping the country, showing the world that when the chips are down we never stop believing, and like those hundreds of thousands of Canadians from all backgrounds and walks of life, our players are certainly diverse: 

image.png.b257f5e70d7499f9175d057184cbf030.png

Yet they come together as one brotherhood, one family. ONE CANADA

As hard as the Americans tried to match our belief, our heart, and our fighting spirit, they couldn't do it. They couldn't do it back at BMO in 2019. They couldn't do it again on Sunday.

 

Now.....all of this has raised a big question....especially south of the boarder:

Have we morphed into 2000-2010 era USA? Has the USA morphed into 2000-2010 Mexico?

 

It's an ongoing discussion happening on BS and elsewhere on the internet. Here are some of the takes:

image.png.08634c9284d377f3c829508bdb302061.png

image.png.fac89525a47066fe5002697d32009140.png

image.png.f4dd0bde41d6b09b18b16ba68e67b743.png

 

So what do you all make of how each of our respective programs are trending at the moment?

 

For Canada, is it all down to two words: John Herdman (as Borjan would say)? 

He's obviously been instrumental in our evolution, no doubt about it.

 

What about the States?

Have they turned into the Mexico of old (i.e. pretty soccer that lacks results)?

What about their recent victories in Nations League? Those games were won with heart after all, not pretty soccer.

Is it an overreaction to say the States are too Vanilla right now? And if that's deserved, what's behind it? Is there a fragile American mindset and is it a bigger problem than soccer, or can it be simply explained by poor leadership from the coach?

 

Share your thoughts here....

 

And Lets go Canada! Let's get another 3 points tomorrow and close this thing out!

True North Strong and Free! 

I wouldn't compare Canada to the states of 20 years ago. We're morphing into our own identity. What that identity is I can't sort out just yet. Maybe in a year or two that identity will become more apparent.

As for the states, I see their biggest problem is that they're not a team but an agglomeration of players who have a high opinion of themselves and Gregg is not the coach to unit them. Canada on the other hand has Herdman who turned these players into a cohesive team. Hopefully his influence will remain once he leaves.

 

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3 minutes ago, Macksam said:

Nietzche Is Dead may be on to something.  

friedrich nietzsche glitch GIF

Many American fans have commented how our boys were blasting out the national anthem like no tomorrow, while for the Americans it was basically Pulisic and a couple of others half heartedly singing.

Whether there's something deeper behind that I don't know, but what I do know is that Herdman has these guys fired up in a way the Americans aren't. 

4 minutes ago, Approve My Account Pls said:

I can where someone would draw those conclusions, but I think one thing that is a staple of not only this team but across Canadians in non-hockey sports is that there is no easy route to get to the top. In order to get there you need to scratch and claw your way. Even if you're the best in your province, you won't command any respect when you go outside of Canada. These boys have to fight their way through the pyramids of other countries where they are no one's first priority. Even with our current success and the years to come, the opinion of Canadian's will improve for the next gen of players but it will not completely go away. That's part of what gives this team it's level of grit and brotherhood that we have that the Americans lack. I just think JH has done a great job of tapping into that mentality and making it our identity.

Good point. Do you think perhaps the Americans have had to scrap less than our boys as they worked through their own pyramids? Is this a consequence of developing your soccer infrastructure? 

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2 minutes ago, Chad_Impact said:

I think comparing us to the U.S of old is kind of undermining our success tbh. The U.S of old never had the quality we have now. 

This has crossed my mind. Some of it comes off as genuinely complementing us, but some of it comes off as backhanded compliments. I think their inferiority complex with Mexico (the fans I mean) still runs deep, perhaps even to the point where they enjoy being the "Mexico" on some level. 

The American soccer identity appears to be lost at the moment. This is why I repeatedly preached caution to those anointing this USMNT team to be the "Golden Generation".

They are very young, like us, but we seem to know who we are, they don't. 

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It's an intriguing thesis.  I have to agree with some of the comments here - the "chip on your shoulder/underdog" mentality is certainly a factor, as is the "play for the flag, play for your brothers" mantra that Herdman has given our team.  In my opinion, we are not leading the region because we're more talented than Mexico or the USA, or because of our tactics; it's really our will to fight and win every single battle in all 90 minutes that sets us apart.  So why do we have it and why do they not?  Is it strictly because of Herdman's speeches, or is there some underlying psyche, part of just being Canadian, that makes us this way?   

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@Chad_Impact further to your point, the Americans are now describing us as a gritty team who parks the bus to get results, but that kind of ignores the expansive play to draw Mexico at the Azteca and the impressive Gold Cup match. 

We are not a "bunkering" team, we are a "winning" team. That means we do what we have to do to win.

We are not idealistic, so if the game requires us to bunker, so be it. 

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11 minutes ago, Obinna said:

@Chad_Impact further to your point, the Americans are now describing us as a gritty team who parks the bus to get results, but that kind of ignores the expansive play to draw Mexico at the Azteca and the impressive Gold Cup match. 

We are not a "bunkering" team, we are a "winning" team. That means we do what we have to do to win.

We are not idealistic, so if the game requires us to bunker, so be it. 

Yeah they're saying the same all over Twitter. We dominated the 2nd half of the gold cup, and the away WCQ game. 

This game we were missing several key players, had just traveled from Honduras, and the MLS based players are out of season. So yeah, we invited pressure this game with a goal ahead. Herdman knew they're toothless right now and would probably just pass it around. As of now, they're just not that good imo.

A lot of their fanbase is delusional 

Edited by Chad_Impact
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16 minutes ago, GasPed said:

It's an intriguing thesis.  I have to agree with some of the comments here - the "chip on your shoulder/underdog" mentality is certainly a factor, as is the "play for the flag, play for your brothers" mantra that Herdman has given our team.  In my opinion, we are not leading the region because we're more talented than Mexico or the USA, or because of our tactics; it's really our will to fight and win every single battle in all 90 minutes that sets us apart.  So why do we have it and why do they not?  Is it strictly because of Herdman's speeches, or is there some underlying psyche, part of just being Canadian, that makes us this way?   

I see it in the way that Herdman sees it, when he used the New Zealand rugby team as a comparison.  They are the small, overlooked country compared to others (especially Australia in their neck of the woods), but when the chips are down, they fight for each other when the "big" countries are looking down at them. (I follow rugby a bit, so I see the parallels.)  You can see it when we sing the national anthem.  It's like the All-Blacks doing the haka before each game: we don't care who you are, we will fight to the end.  It's not just the size of the dog in the fight, as the old saying goes.  

Edited by Trois Reds
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27 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Good point. Do you think perhaps the Americans have had to scrap less than our boys as they worked through their own pyramids? Is this a consequence of developing your soccer infrastructure? 

I think when it comes to going to Europe, both likely scrap equal amounts. Maybe you could argue the past generation of Americans in Europe are where our boys are now. Maybe they're currently benefiting from easier access with FIFA rankings and we'll get that in a year or two? Maybe it's easier for Americans because as an economical asset, it's easier to take a chance on an American because of the marketing dollars they can bring in from stateside. It's hard to say.

I would say where it differentiates is the experience at the youth level or club level here in North America. Despite having 3 MLS franchises, you could argue that this year is the first time any Canadian MLS franchise is making Canadian talent a priority (Montreal). Also at a youth level, its been MLS Academies, which everyone on this forum has discussed the mismanagement of those over the years from franchise to franchise, or Canadians have had to go through NCAA or USL. Either of those routes, our guys are secondary. Even just getting an NCAA scholarship is harder as a non-American. Idk maybe this is all in my Canadian tinted glasses, but that's just my opinion on differences. I think CPL will go a long way for our development system, but it'll take time before it's working at its best

Edited by Approve My Account Pls
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7 minutes ago, Trois Reds said:

I see it in the way that Herdman sees it, when he used the New Zealand rugby team as a comparison.  They are the small, overlooked country compared to others (especially Australia in their neck of the woods), but when the chips are down, they fight for each other when the "big" countries are looking down at them. (I follow rugby a bit, so I see the parallels.)  You can see it when we sing the national anthem.  It's like the All-Blacks doing the haka before each game: we don't care who you are, we will fight to the end.  It's not just the size of the dog in the fight, as the old saying goes.  

Here's a quote from an ESPN interview with Cyle Larin today:

"When asked whether he feels that Canada are the best team in CONCACAF, [Larin] agreed but made it clear that they're hungry for more.

'Yes, right now, we do, but we will never settle. We will never settle. Each game we will go out there like it's our last. We've been doing that, and it's the reason why we haven't lost,' Larin said."

Edited by GasPed
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20 minutes ago, jonovision said:

I agree to a point with some of the comments. But I think drawing parallels between a nation's footballing identity and broader culture isn't helpful and is often rather dangerous. I know I've been guilty of it in the past in the way I think of Central American countries and their football.

Good point.

On some level the attitude of the players is underpinned by the broader culture they were raised in, but whether that translates onto the field of play is entirely debatable for sure. 

And of course we should be tactful. We don't want to slip into the trap of observing negative behaviors on the pitch, then attributing those negative behaviors to a broader culture and walking away thinking that culture is negative.

We should be careful not to do that. Well said!

Edited by Obinna
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I don't think the broader conclusions about society really apply. I think regardless of what they say, Americans still don't really see anyone in Concacaf except Mexico as a rival, despite recent results. I suspect they simply aren't mentally up for it against Canada like they are against Mexico. And I think many of their players do get rated higher simply for being American. Someone posted a Transfermarkt list of American and Canadians on another thread. Going down that list there are a bunch of players I wouldn't say are truly better than their Canadian equivalent. 

I suspect we'll see a dramatic change in attitude at the World Cup (if they make it).

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In a word, no.  US has not become Mexico, and neither has Canada become the USA.  In football terms, and definitely not in cultural terms.

What this IS is an awesome, simple and powerful meme to support an extremely complex situation, years in the making, that has developed, both randomly and deliberately, and culminated in last Sunday's win by the Canucks

But nothing more than that...sports reporting of any kind usually seeks to "explain" the reasons for losing in overly simplistic terms...and Americans are doing that now.  Up until Sunday, so much of their focus was on winning the Qualifications, it was their only goal (why? well their sporting superiority complex is massive. as well as their overall complex in general re American things)  Now that it has suffered such a clear and obvious blow, they need explanations, and fast.  This is a great one...it kills so many birds with one stone.  They get to glorify their past successes by association, vilify the culprits they feel are responsible for what they feel is a huge come-down, and also denigrate what Canada has done simply by saying they are simply copying what we used to do.  Maybe lauding Canada too...but they could simply say "well played Canada" if that was their desire.

The reality is so much simpler.  US Soccer made an explicit decision to try and play the game the way they are playing it now, years ago, so they could eventually try to compete at the very top of the world.  And they are still going through growing pains.  Period.

And can they be successful?  Of course they can!  They're 2nd in WC qualifying...not last.  They won the Gold Cup last summer.  They just lost 1 game to an opponent in great form, when they themselves, by their own admissions, are not in that same form.   Anyone can see that.  And lost an away match! This is such normal football stuff.

But it is a pretty good meme.  From an American perspective.  Not from mine.

 

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Fuck no. We're Canada. Even the USA of old did not play the brand of football we play now... hell in fact, I don't think any USA team has ever played the dynamic, intense football we play. The only thing we are similar to with USA teams of old is that grit and never say die mentality, and we have taken that to a new level by actually playing fun football

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13 hours ago, Approve My Account Pls said:

I can where someone would draw those conclusions, but I think one thing that is a staple of not only this team but across Canadians in non-hockey sports is that there is no easy route to get to the top. In order to get there you need to scratch and claw your way. Even if you're the best in your province, you won't command any respect when you go outside of Canada. These boys have to fight their way through the pyramids of other countries where they are no one's first priority. Even with our current success and the years to come, the opinion of Canadian's will improve for the next gen of players but it will not completely go away. That's part of what gives this team it's level of grit and brotherhood that we have that the Americans lack. I just think JH has done a great job of tapping into that mentality and making it our identity.

I think with herdman we will take what ever identity we need to to win the game.  We play Mexico and the states very differently

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