WCQ: Third Round - Window 2 (October 7-13, 2021)

[SthMelbRed]

15 minutes ago, Kent said:

I can confirm that you are incorrect about a lot of what you said. No World Cup Qualifying games had been played yet, so qualifying wasn't already underway. The top 6 teams were going to be determined by the June 2020 FIFA World Rankings. Things were shut down before June. So there weren't even any matchups determined, in either the top half or bottom half of qualifying. If you meant that the top 4 teams in the ranking were definitely going to be in the hex, well that didn't change with the new format. The top 5 ranked teams auto-qualified for the final 8 team group stage that we are in at the moment.

"I wish this was still a 32 WC". I assume by this you mean you wish it was a 32 team World Cup in 2022. You are in luck, it is still a 32 team World Cup. The 2026 World Cup is the one that will be expanded. There was a brief suggestion that maybe the Qatar World Cup could be expanded as well, but nothing ever came of that. With that cleared up, I feel I should make sure you are aware that there are still only 3.5 spots allocated for CONCACAF for this World Cup. So Canada at the moment is in the last auto qualify spot since we are 3rd in the final group, with 8 games to go.

Hopefully, CONCACAF will stop being the stupidest of all the confederations and fucks off with the idiotic qualification processes. Do a brief preliminary round to weed out some of the minnows and get to a workable, round number of teams for the Semi-final round. Then play for the right to compete in the final round, single group. It's not bloody rocket science!

 

[kungfucious]

@Kent thnx a lot for the jump start.  the details in your reply is exactly the same thing i was trying to say.  when the previous qualifying format was halted, we were on the outside with 0 chance of being CONCACAF top 6.  it naturally didnt help b/c the boys were already starting behind an 8-ball, w/ a very tight margin for error (as the hex qualifying was announced with very little notice).  if i further remember correctly, they also blew a few opportunities to score big ranking pts.  

 

i think you are right the previously hex qualified teams had no impact as they requalified for this octo, but my point was that qualifying 3.5/6 is a lot more easy than qualifying 3.5/8 so i stand by what i said earlier saying those teams got screwed, while we got a lifeline.

Edited November 10, 2021 by kungfucious
memory problems

[SthMelbRed]

3 minutes ago, kungfucious said:

@Kent thnx a lot for the jump start.  the details in your reply is exactly the same thing i was trying to say.  when the previous qualifying format was halted, we were on the outside with 0 chance of being CONCACAF top 6.  it naturally didnt help b/c the boys were already starting behind an 8-ball, w/ a very tight margin for error.  iirc, they also blew a few opportunities to score big ranking pts.  

 

i think you are right the previously hex qualified teams had no impact as they requalified for this octo, but my point was that qualifying 3.5/6 is a lot more easy than qualifying 3.5/8 so i stand by what i said earlier saying those teams got screwed, while we got a lifeline.

They didn't get screwed. They just had their gift downgraded from gold to silver. The CONCACAF qualification process for Qatar has been abomination from the start.

[kungfucious]

3 minutes ago, SthMelbRed said:

They didn't get screwed. They just had their gift downgraded from gold to silver. 

u mean those teams got concacaffed?

Edited November 10, 2021 by kungfucious

[SthMelbRed]

9 minutes ago, kungfucious said:

u mean those teams got concacaffed?

No. The other 30 teams just got a little less CONCACAFed.

[Big_M]

MONTAGLIANIed is a better word at this point...been awful in coming up with formats from the start

[Kent]

4 hours ago, Big_M said:

MONTAGLIANIed is a better word at this point...been awful in coming up with formats from the start

In my opinion it has been a mixed bag under Montagliani. Expanding the Gold Cup to 16 teams, making everyone qualify, stopping the USA vs Mexico in the final set up for the knockout rounds, all that was good. Nations League, again, good. Champions League, it sucked that he got rid of the group stage. It was good that he got the CONCACAF League started, but bad that it removed all Central American teams from the Champions League proper and CONCACAF League is going to be removed again. And yeah, the initial World Cup Qualifying format was the worst of it all. The current format is OK or even good.

[narduch]

10 minutes ago, Kent said:

In my opinion it has been a mixed bag under Montagliani. Expanding the Gold Cup to 16 teams, making everyone qualify, stopping the USA vs Mexico in the final set up for the knockout rounds, all that was good. Nations League, again, good. Champions League, it sucked that he got rid of the group stage. It was good that he got the CONCACAF League started, but bad that it removed all Central American teams from the Champions League proper and CONCACAF League is going to be removed again. And yeah, the initial World Cup Qualifying format was the worst of it all. The current format is OK or even good.

The current format would have been improved if 5 nations weren't gifted spots in the Octagonal. 

The crazy thing is that this may be the last time the Octagonal is used. 

I guess you could still use it for 2026, even if the 3 hosts auto qualify. 

But afterwards a newer format will be needed of 5-6 teams get spots

Edited November 10, 2021 by narduch

[Kent]

3 hours ago, narduch said:

The current format would have been improved if 5 nations weren't gifted spots in the Octagonal. 

The crazy thing is that this may be the last time the Octagonal is used. 

I guess you could still use it for 2026, even if the 3 hosts auto qualify. 

But afterwards a newer format will be needed of 5-6 teams get spots

Agreed. The gifted spots are why I said OK. The knowledge that those 5 teams were all very, very, likely to get in under a different format, dependent on nasty draws, was why I consider it may even be a good format.

[red card]

Some interesting tidbits in how US Soccer keeps Mexican Americans from attending WCQ (surprised they were transparent about as this could be construed way differently - as it has been on twitter).

 

The most popular national team in the US is Mexico - due in part to a travelling circus that draws Incondicionales everywhere it goes. The Mexican American population in the US is basically equivalent to Canada's total pop.

For Friday, USSF designed a “weighted random draw,” essentially stacking a lottery in favour of fans who pay to be U.S. Soccer “Insiders.” Highest of 3 tiered Insider annual cost is $500. Something the CSA should also implement to get access to friendlies in run up to 2026 if we qualify for Qatar. $50 or $100 should work for most ex the segment that will howl.

Fourth tier went to recognized supporters groups and FCC season ticket holders. Due to the number of requests, no tickets were sold to the general public ex ones that got sold on the secondary market.

Cincy was picked because Ohio has the lowest Latino share of pop and of the 22 U.S. metropolitan areas with MLS teams, Cincinnati ranks last.

GGG also stepped in to get rid of the slow-clap chant right at kickoff (sounds similar to Herdman complaining about ES supporters only meeting their bus). Many outsiders felt that it deadened the raucous atmosphere building toward the game. They decided that the clap — similar to Iceland’s "Viking clap," but accompanied by “U-S-A" — should instead welcome players. 

Next step for Friday is emblematic of North American pro sports. Fans will find a high-tech LED wristband in their seat. After warmups, lights will dim, the wristbands will brighten and flash, covering the stands in red, white and blue. A “manifesto video” will play. Eight laps of pyrotechnics will illuminate the field as players emerge from the tunnel. The U.S. starting lineup will be introduced via call and response. A PA announcer will boom first names; thousands of fans will scream surnames on cue. Then a noise meter, an in-stadium host and a countdown will prompt them as 9:10 p.m. nears.

https://sports.yahoo.com/us-soccers-biggest-challenge-vs-mexico-making-a-home-game-an-actual-home-game-183005330.html

[Joe MacCarthy]

nm

Edited November 11, 2021 by Joe MacCarthy

[Cblake]

30 minutes ago, red card said:

Some interesting tidbits in how US Soccer keeps Mexican Americans from attending WCQ (surprised they were transparent about as this could be construed way differently - as it has been on twitter).

 

The most popular national team in the US is Mexico - due in part to a travelling circus that draws Incondicionales everywhere it goes. The Mexican American population in the US is basically equivalent to Canada's total pop.

For Friday, USSF designed a “weighted random draw,” essentially stacking a lottery in favour of fans who pay to be U.S. Soccer “Insiders.” Highest of 3 tiered Insider annual cost is $500. Something the CSA should also implement to get access to friendlies in run up to 2026 if we qualify for Qatar. $50 or $100 should work for most ex the segment that will howl.

Fourth tier went to recognized supporters groups and FCC season ticket holders. Due to the number of requests, no tickets were sold to the general public ex ones that got sold on the secondary market.

Cincy was picked because Ohio has the lowest Latino share of pop and of the 22 U.S. metropolitan areas with MLS teams, Cincinnati ranks last.

GGG also stepped in to get rid of the slow-clap chant right at kickoff (sounds similar to Herdman complaining about ES supporters only meeting their bus). Many outsiders felt that it deadened the raucous atmosphere building toward the game. They decided that the clap — similar to Iceland’s "Viking clap," but accompanied by “U-S-A" — should instead welcome players. 

Next step for Friday is emblematic of North American pro sports. Fans will find a high-tech LED wristband in their seat. After warmups, lights will dim, the wristbands will brighten and flash, covering the stands in red, white and blue. A “manifesto video” will play. Eight laps of pyrotechnics will illuminate the field as players emerge from the tunnel. The U.S. starting lineup will be introduced via call and response. A PA announcer will boom first names; thousands of fans will scream surnames on cue. Then a noise meter, an in-stadium host and a countdown will prompt them as 9:10 p.m. nears.

https://sports.yahoo.com/us-soccers-biggest-challenge-vs-mexico-making-a-home-game-an-actual-home-game-183005330.html

The USSF has been very successful in keeping out the Mexican supporters, having attended the 2013 USA Mexico WCQ in Columbus. It is crazy at how many Mexican supporters still make the the trip to the match looking for tickets and end up waving around huge amounts of cash around trying to buy one as people walked in.

The Canada match in Nashville was the one qualifier where they felt comfortable going to a big stadium and still get a big  pro American crowd, which they achieved. The pandemic certainly played a part in it too. 

 

 

[jonovision]

deleted 

Edited November 11, 2021 by jonovision

[rkomar]

In Vancouver, I attended a few women's and one men's game against Mexican teams, and I loved the atmosphere in the stadium that their fans helped provide.  They were the most electric games that I went to there.  I understand that we don't want them taking over the stands, but squashing them entirely seems over the top.  This is entertainment, not war, and the Mexican fans bring that extra bit of sizzle to the game.

[frattinator]

15 hours ago, red card said:

Cincy was picked because Ohio has the lowest Latino share of pop and of the 22 U.S. metropolitan areas with MLS teams, Cincinnati ranks last.

So I had a long hard think about this approach and I'm not sure if I agree with this approach at all from the USSF's long-term perspective. Caveat: as someone who doesn't look like the most typical Canadian (ie. white), I might be a little more sensitive to always have to somehow "prove" I'm Canadian both at home and (much more frequently) abroad. 

In an attempt to limit the number of Mexican fans in the stands, USSF essentially tries to exclude as many latino-heritage (which remember, includes a ton of people without heritage from Mexico) people from attending the match. So if you are a latino kid who was born in the US, what kind of message does that send to you? To me that says USSF questions the loyalty of people who look like me and believe I shouldn't get the chance to cheer on the team because they think people who look like me will always cheer for the opponent. That then creates a self-reinforcing cycle where latino kids aren't expected to support USMNT, so why would you support a team that you aren't wanted, so of course you support the team of your heritage (El Salvador, Mexico, Guatemala etc.).

Aside from the fact that this seems suboptimal in how you engage with potential fans, this also creates real problems with dual nationals. If you are a latino kid who has the chance to either represent Mexico or USA, would you want to represent the team that has gone out of their way to make sure people like you can't go to the games? A team that wants to you suppress your Mexican heritage in order to fit into the USSF setup? In this article where Julian Araujo explained why he chose Mexico, this quote from David Ochoa (another dual national who also chose Mexico) really stood out to me: "“I hated that I always had to be different,” wrote Ochoa. “In the U.S., I was ‘the Mexican.’ In Mexico, I was ‘the Gringo.’” Ochoa’s decision to play for Mexico was met with racist vitriol and xenophobia on social media.". Of course this doesn't mean US loses most of its dual national battles (Richardo Pepi being one prominent example), but to lose out on potential players through this reason seems shortsighted to me and has longer-term implications. USSF might win the battle of creating good home field advantage against Mexico, but lose the long-term war with recruitment and outreach (which imho is more important to the health of any program, especially in countries where a lot of younger players will have multiple possibilities). 

I think I mentioned this before but that's why I really appreciated Canada's approach to this, where I never felt like I had to choose between my different ethnicities, and I could be Canadian without hiding the other part of me. And in a different universe where I was actually good enough to be offered the opportunity to play for different national teams, I would choose Canada over my birth place 100% of the time precisely because I didn't have to choose who I was growing up. This is probably the biggest difference I noticed since moving to the US 10 years ago, where there was much greater pressure for immigrants to assimilate, and that pressure often creates immigrant enclaves where ironically, people are much more inclined to hold on to their heritage because they wouldn't be accepted otherwise.

[theaub]

I'm fine with strategically playing the games in cities where you will have a better home field advantage (ie I'd much rather play Mexico in Edmonton than Vancouver).  Miss me with the whole 'price out your own fans so opposing fans won't buy tickets' strategy though.

[Chad_Impact]

What are ticket sales looking like for the two games? Last I saw tomorrow's game is at 40k+?

[SpursFlu]

Yah I don't get why people want to completely shut out the other teams supporters. I think a good 10%-15% of the crowd occupied by the other fans is healthy and adds to the environment. Like someone else mentioned the BC Place Canada Mexico game, I'd say around 30% of the crowd of 55k were Mexican and it was an amazing atmosphere. I liked it

[Approve My Account Pls]

35 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

Yah I don't get why people want to completely shut out the other teams supporters. I think a good 10%-15% of the crowd occupied by the other fans is healthy and adds to the environment. Like someone else mentioned the BC Place Canada Mexico game, I'd say around 30% of the crowd of 55k were Mexican and it was an amazing atmosphere. I liked it

Think the major thing is they can be there but they need to be contained into a couple sections max.

Although we go on about how bad it was having so many El Salvador and Honduran fans, I think it made the atmosphere far more electric. Hearing the El Salvador fans belt out their anthem forced all of us to sing twice as load.

[Kadenge]

3 minutes ago, Approve My Account Pls said:

Think the major thing is they can be there but they need to be contained into a couple sections max.

Although we go on about how bad it was having so many El Salvador and Honduran fans, I think it made the atmosphere far more electric. Hearing the El Salvador fans belt out their anthem forced all of us to sing twice as load.

The crowd atmosphere v Panama at BMO was the best, by a wide margin, out of the 3 home games. Even better than the USA game at BMO in 2019. I would go so far as to say it was the best I have experienced for a CMNT game in Toronto and there were very few Panama fans present. It's not good when our players are booed by the away fans as they were vs ES and Honduras. So I completely support minimizing away fans....and I am a person of colour 😊

[The Beaver 2.0]

Here's hoping the Mexicans pick up no more than 3 points this window, preferably fewer.  I want them motivated to win the rest of their games!!

The team to watch closely: Jamaica. They are far from done. I've a feeling we'll be battling the US and Jamaica for the final two automatic qualifying spots. (I've a feeling Panama will hang around but ultimately finish in 5th, followed by the Ticos, Hondurans, and El Salvador.

[kungfucious]

@Chad_Impactlast i saw, just crossed 46k for tn (fri).  no reports yet of tues, but considering its them, #'s should be higher?  i commented on the other thread how its still not sold out as representative of typical cdn apathy.  i stand by those words here in this thread.  more accurately, ill cite the apathy built upon lack support from media, domination by telescope to nhl, complete abscence of corporate canada (until it becomes a winning marketing play)

@Approve My Account Pls @rkomaru2 are absolutely right.  having the opponents inside is a great privilege of attending matches.  u get a first-class lesson on how to support your team as well as an indication of how far we are (empty seats) from where we wanna be (locals buy up all the tickets, naturally shutting them out).  

@Cblake like u said, money talks, and when u are as rabid as those mexicans like u saw, only then can the CSA or the general population get any credit.  as it stands, canada can only call itself an ice hockey nation.

[longlugan]

10 hours ago, kungfucious said:

@Chad_Impactlast i saw, just crossed 46k for tn (fri).  no reports yet of tues, but considering its them, #'s should be higher?  i commented on the other thread how its still not sold out as representative of typical cdn apathy.  i stand by those words here in this thread.  more accurately, ill cite the apathy built upon lack support from media, domination by telescope to nhl, complete abscence of corporate canada (until it becomes a winning marketing play)

@Approve My Account Pls @rkomaru2 are absolutely right.  having the opponents inside is a great privilege of attending matches.  u get a first-class lesson on how to support your team as well as an indication of how far we are (empty seats) from where we wanna be (locals buy up all the tickets, naturally shutting them out).  

@Cblake like u said, money talks, and when u are as rabid as those mexicans like u saw, only then can the CSA or the general population get any credit.  as it stands, canada can only call itself an ice hockey nation.

Not get enough hugs lately?

[N1ckbr0wn]

10 hours ago, kungfucious said:

@Chad_Impactlast i saw, just crossed 46k for tn (fri).  no reports yet of tues, but considering its them, #'s should be higher?  i commented on the other thread how its still not sold out as representative of typical cdn apathy.  i stand by those words here in this thread.  more accurately, ill cite the apathy built upon lack support from media, domination by telescope to nhl, complete abscence of corporate canada (until it becomes a winning marketing play)

@Approve My Account Pls @rkomaru2 are absolutely right.  having the opponents inside is a great privilege of attending matches.  u get a first-class lesson on how to support your team as well as an indication of how far we are (empty seats) from where we wanna be (locals buy up all the tickets, naturally shutting them out).  

@Cblake like u said, money talks, and when u are as rabid as those mexicans like u saw, only then can the CSA or the general population get any credit.  as it stands, canada can only call itself an ice hockey nation.

Bro… 45000+ expected tonight, potentially 50000+ for Tuesday, and just last month BMO sold out 25000k….. the growth is there man, give it time. 

[Kent]

On 11/12/2021 at 9:04 AM, kungfucious said:

@Chad_Impactlast i saw, just crossed 46k for tn (fri).  no reports yet of tues, but considering its them, #'s should be higher?  i commented on the other thread how its still not sold out as representative of typical cdn apathy.  i stand by those words here in this thread.  more accurately, ill cite the apathy built upon lack support from media, domination by telescope to nhl, complete abscence of corporate canada (until it becomes a winning marketing play)

@Approve My Account Pls @rkomaru2 are absolutely right.  having the opponents inside is a great privilege of attending matches.  u get a first-class lesson on how to support your team as well as an indication of how far we are (empty seats) from where we wanna be (locals buy up all the tickets, naturally shutting them out).  

@Cblake like u said, money talks, and when u are as rabid as those mexicans like u saw, only then can the CSA or the general population get any credit.  as it stands, canada can only call itself an ice hockey nation.

Was it Mexican apathy that resulted in just 61,200 fans to show up for the game against us at Azteca, which has a capacity of 87,000, in a city that has 16.5 times the metro population of Edmonton?