World Cup Qualifying Third Round Match Day 1: Canada Honduras - Thursday, September 2nd, 2021 - BMO Field, Toronto.

[canuckgbp]

I doubt we will see a formation change. 3-5-2 which can turn into a 4-4-2. It is what the core of the team is used to right now. 

[Obinna]

Agree with @Unnamed Trialist that we should go for it and let the chips fall where they may, but I cannot like a post that disrespects poutine.

[Floortom]

9 minutes ago, theaub said:

Although I did suggest the yellow card thing earlier (which was more if the team itself is going to make this rotation a designated strategy) I fully agree there is no reason that these guys can't play 210-240 minutes over the three matches.

Especially with the five subs, Borjan/Davies/David/Buchanan/Eustaquio/whatever 3 CB's they like should be starting every match.

e: Larin in this window too with Cavallini not being healthy.

 

I’m not sure I agree but it’s entirely possible that this is Herdman’s plan - particularly with the thin 23 man roster (including Cav) that he called in.

[baulderdash77]

Your probably right.  A 3-5-2 with David and Larin up top and Davies and Laryea/ Buchanan on the right side is a good setup.  Hoilett will rotate in as well.

The back 3 of Kennedy, Vitoria and Johnston has worked really well.  Millar and Henry rotating through works as well.

With Atiba present we have a really strong midfield options of Eustaquio at DM and rotations of Atiba, Osorio, Kaye and Piette available at CM.

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

10 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Agree with @Unnamed Trialist that we should go for it and let the chips fall where they may, but I cannot like a post that disrespects poutine.

I'm disrespecting gravy. Beating the US is not gravy, it's far better. 

Herdman is saying he wants 21 points at home, but he knows that won't be possible. He says that to get the home support out, so great, but as soon as we draw one, the plan is shot? Don't think so. 

The away match vs the US is our shortest away trip in the entire round. It is also the only one where we'll be travelling less than the rival to get there. It also not going to be any more intimidating than any team playing away to a good crowd in MLS. There are no Covid headaches. It's optimal, we have to go for it.

[Obinna]

8 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I'm disrespecting gravy. Beating the US is not gravy, it's far better. 

Herdman is saying he wants 21 points at home, but he knows that won't be possible. He says that to get the home support out, so great, but as soon as we draw one, the plan is shot? Don't think so. 

The away match vs the US is our shortest away trip in the entire round. It is also the only one where we'll be travelling less than the rival to get there. It also not going to be any more intimidating than any team playing away to a good crowd in MLS. There are no Covid headaches. It's optimal, we have to go for it.

I'm with you man, even if I like that brown fatty, unhealthy mess they call gravy

In all seriousness though, taking points off the USA should be a realistic goal. A draw is probably a point gained for us, but it's two points dropped for them, as they're the favorites (plus they are at home). A draw would put pressure on them and reduce their margin for error, making it more likely they get maximum points off one of our main rivals, Honduras. Or, they may fail in that, but that opens the door for us to leapfrog them, especially if we take care of Honduras in the first match. 

Either way, there's a good argument for us to apply pressure on the USA, rather than seeing it as a throw away game. If we fail, then we fail. The following match against El Salvador shouldn't be in jeopardy regardless of whether we go for it against the states or not.

[grigorio]

6 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Either way, there's a good argument for us to apply pressure on the USA, rather than seeing it as a throw away game. If we fail, then we fail. The following match against El Salvador shouldn't be in jeopardy regardless of whether we go for it against the states or not.

I also feel that for the collective psyche trying to win EVERY game is important. I do not want another repeat of play it cute vs Mexico then lose to Haiti instead. Can't help but feel that played some role in that collapse. Imagine an alternate world in which Canada scratched and clawed with Mexico in that GC game and realized they could go toe-to-toe before facing Haiti. 

[RS]

The same guy who loudly wanted Canada to throw away their Gold Cup chances is now attacking other posters for having a "soft, non-competitive mentality" when suggesting that the strongest starting XI cannot be trotted out three times in eight days.

You can't make this up.

(I'll probably be called a bully for this post now)

[RS]

To be clear, advocating for smart squad rotation isn't the same as advocating for Canada to roll over for the US.

[Bdog]

I’d like to see us go balls out the first two games, our depth should be able to handle a team that has Zavaleta as starting CB and captain. 

Even if El Salvador play their A team, I’m confident in guys like Hoilett, Piette, Wotherspoon, and Fraser (who’s now getting regular playing time) being able to handle them no problem. 

[Kadenge]

Interesting debate re USA game and some good points by both @Unnamed Trialist& @Obinna. We still need  6 points from the 2 home games...the question is can our 2nd XI get the job done vs ES keeping in mind knocks/cards in the 1st 2 games. Would feel better if we brought 26 players and not just fill ins for practice. 

[dyslexic nam]

I just think that 6 points from ES and Honduras is the priority.   Not saying to roll over and let the US rub our bellies, but most people have said that a number of guys won’t be starting all 3 games.  So for a guy like Hutch, or guys we want to make sure get back to their clubs in one piece (to avoid future phantom injuries preventing them from leaving for national team duty) that realistically means some of the big guns may start one match on the bench.  That can either be away to the consensus #2 team in the region (that we haven’t beaten away in decades), or it can be in a very winnable home game against ES in front of our fans.  Going down guns-blazing against the US seems like an unnecessary gamble given that we have another just as crucial game a few days later.  And no way should we think about the ES game as one we can win with a B team   Losing that puts us at a serious disadvantage in terms of points.

And as much as people are praising the mental strategy of proving we can go toe to toe with the US and the confidence boost that might bring, what happens if we go down and get our ass kicked with our absolutely best 11 (like we did when we lost 4-1 in Orlando with all our big guns present).   I would argue that introducing that kind of self-doubt could be pretty bad for our campaign.

But as I said, for me it is just about taking the big view of the campaign rather than just looking at any one game in isolation   That isn’t some loser’s mentality - it is just pragmatism.

 

[trc2014]

Is this as simple as sitting those who are on yellows for the US game (if possible): Vitoria, Davies, Kaye, Laryea, Henry, Hoilett

[Obinna]

29 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I just think that 6 points from ES and Honduras is the priority.   Not saying to roll over and let the US rub our bellies, but most people have said that a number of guys won’t be starting all 3 games.  So for a guy like Hutch, or guys we want to make sure get back to their clubs in one piece (to avoid future phantom injuries preventing them from leaving for national team duty) that realistically means some of the big guns may start one match on the bench.  That can either be away to the consensus #2 team in the region (that we haven’t beaten away in decades), or it can be in a very winnable home game against ES in front of our fans.  Going down guns-blazing against the US seems like an unnecessary gamble given that we have another just as crucial game a few days later.  And no way should we think about the ES game as one we can win with a B team   Losing that puts us at a serious disadvantage in terms of points.

And as much as people are praising the mental strategy of proving we can go toe to toe with the US and the confidence boost that might bring, what happens if we go down and get our ass kicked with our absolutely best 11 (like we did when we lost 4-1 in Orlando with all our big guns present).   I would argue that introducing that kind of self-doubt could be pretty bad for our campaign.

But as I said, for me it is just about taking the big view of the campaign rather than just looking at any one game in isolation   That isn’t some loser’s mentality - it is just pragmatism.

 

You got the like from me, as you brought up some good points, but I also feel we need to define a few things here.

What does it mean to bring a "rotated" squad to Nashville?

If that means resting Hutchinson and/or a few guys on yellows or playing through knocks, I agree that's just being pragmatic.

But unless there is good reason (as stated above), I want to see Davies, David, Larin, Buchanan and Eustaquio all starting against the states. Anything less is too much rotation for me. If these guys are healthy I don't want to see any of them starting from the bench so that we can 'save them' for El Salvador.

To your point about mentality in a losing cause where we go for it, I would think that going all out and coming up short is better than losing without "going for it". I wouldn't see that as risking self doubt creeping in, I would see that as losing to the better team on the day, knowing there'll be a chance to set things right in the return match.

This all depends on the result of the Honduras match too. If we win we can debate about going for it or not, but if we lose or draw we need to go for it in Nashville.

[dyslexic nam]

31 minutes ago, Obinna said:

You got the like from me, as you brought up some good points, but I also feel we need to define a few things here.

What does it mean to bring a "rotated" squad to Nashville?

If that means resting Hutchinson and/or a few guys on yellows or playing through knocks, I agree that's just being pragmatic.

But unless there is good reason (as stated above), I want to see Davies, David, Larin, Buchanan and Eustaquio all starting against the states. Anything less is too much rotation for me. If these guys are healthy I don't want to see any of them starting from the bench so that we can 'save them' for El Salvador.

To your point about mentality in a losing cause where we go for it, I would think that going all out and coming up short is better than losing without "going for it". I wouldn't see that as risking self doubt creeping in, I would see that as losing to the better team on the day, knowing there'll be a chance to set things right in the return match.

This all depends on the result of the Honduras match too. If we win we can debate about going for it or not, but if we lose or draw we need to go for it in Nashville.

So do you see all these guys (Davies, David, Larin, Buchanan and Eustaquio) starting all 3 games?  Because if the plan is to start some of them on the bench for one game, I would rather that be the US game than the ES game.  

[mrstepp817]

I just think its really hard to start guys in all 3 games in this short a window...obviously less than three points in the Honduras game puts Canada in a different mindset..but if you get three points pragmatic decisions have to be made w/your players to not only keep them fresh but also to not piss off their club teams.....this isn't a normal international window where you have two games and you throw out the best 11 no matter what...thats where the squad rotation, strategy and long term goals come into play.....its fascinating strategy to watch and a different wrinkle for sure

[theaub]

Let's just smack Honduras around and get to sit all of those guys at the hour mark on Thursday.

[Obinna]

16 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

So do you see all these guys (Davies, David, Larin, Buchanan and Eustaquio) starting all 3 games?  Because if the plan is to start some of them on the bench for one game, I would rather that be the US game than the ES game.  

I see them all starting as long as they can do so. That may not be realistic depending on how they come out of the USA game, but that’s why we take it one step at a time. If they are good to start against ES we start them, that’s my thinking.

Get them a rest when we are up a few goals, not from the start

[Floortom]

Let’s take Jonathan David for example 

he played a match with Lille yesterday - now we’re expecting him to play heavy minutes Thursday, Sunday and Wednesday. So 4 matches in 11 days before heading back to his club for a match on Friday?? That doesn’t seem to be smart nor have his best interest in mind.

[Club Linesman]

It is not feasible to run out the same 11 in every game.  Start our best 11 including Atiba vs Honduras. When we win, then play very defensively CD the US and hope for a point or a late goal by playing some of our offensive studs for 20 minutes or so.  If for some reason we don’t win the first one then I feel Herdman will have no choice but to go to Davies, David, Eustaquio, Buchanan, Larin and maybe even Hutch and see if they feel they can play 90 vs the US at their best. 
If we have run out our top players for 2 full games then there would need to be rotation vs El Salvador, and those players would probably need to go at least 60.  
Can’t wait for BMO!

[johnyb]

It's not uncommon for players in Europe to play Thurs, Sunday, Wed. Especially if they're getting subbed after 60.

[king1010]

9 minutes ago, johnyb said:

It's not uncommon for players in Europe to play Thurs, Sunday, Wed. Especially if they're getting subbed after 60.

Some players yes, but not the whole squad. There is often squad rotation between league games and big champion league games.

We're also not including the fact that it's not just the Thurs, Sun, Wed international games the players are dealing with. It's also the prior Sunday league games -->transatlantic travel -->Thurs, Sun, Wed international games--> transatlantic travel --> more league games. Bit different than a regular European week with just league and Europe/cup games. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by king1010

[Obinna]

8 minutes ago, Floortom said:

Let’s take Jonathan David for example 

he played a match with Lille yesterday - now we’re expecting him to play heavy minutes Thursday, Sunday and Wednesday. So 4 matches in 11 days before heading back to his club for a match on Friday?? That doesn’t seem to be smart nor have his best interest in mind.

Take it player by player. If it is too much for David specifically than he needs to sit because that’s just where he’s at.

4 minutes ago, Club Linesman said:

It is not feasible to run out the same 11 in every game.  Start our best 11 including Atiba vs Honduras. When we win, then play very defensively CD the US and hope for a point or a late goal by playing some of our offensive studs for 20 minutes or so.  If for some reason we don’t win the first one then I feel Herdman will have no choice but to go to Davies, David, Eustaquio, Buchanan, Larin and maybe even Hutch and see if they feel they can play 90 vs the US at their best. 
If we have run out our top players for 2 full games then there would need to be rotation vs El Salvador, and those players would probably need to go at least 60.  
Can’t wait for BMO!

Why not go for it against the states and rotate against El Salvador if it is needed? It feels like quitting on 9 points to secure 6, which some may call smart or pragmatic, but others may call cowardly. I can see both sides of it.

The good things about resting the big boys against the states is that if we can frustrate them and hold them level, we can then bring on Davies, David, etc. to try and push for the winner. The lads get their break and the states has to adjust to our changes. I kind of like it.

If we do that I think we still start Eustáquio. Leave the big offensive game changes like Davies and David on the bench. 

[Mattd97]

I think its unrealistic to expect them to play everyone 270 minutes in 6 days  and silly to call them cowardly for being realistic 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Mattd97

[Sal333]

Aside from playing 3 games in 6 days, there's the time zone changes. I saw that Davies, Hutch and Adekugbe arrived yesterday and the rest arrived or are arriving today. Some of these players are coming from 5-6-7 time zone differences. Henry from 11 or 12. I know they're elite athletes but Herdman is probably concerned about those time changes. Awhile back I read it takes a day to acclimatize yourself for every hour difference. I wonder if we're not gonna see mostly MLS players on Thursday? More than the actual Honduras players what worries me more is our non-North American players have to adjust to the time changes for Thursday.