Herdman: Those who will/may not play again for Canada

[MM3/MM2/MM]

I went over a list of every player Herdman has either played or had in camp who will probably never be called again:  Minutes played under Herdman ()

The easy ones (retired): De Jong (29) Johnson (151) Edgar (31) 

Not Likely: S. Thomas (0) Straith (0) Shome (78) Petrasso (45) Jakovic (59) Edwards (15) Didic (180) Zator (0) Bustos (0) Borges (19) Ricketts (247) Chapman (68) Morgan (133) Teibert (378)

Seem to be on the outs/need to play more/higher level: James (270) Cordova (0) Tabla (102) Sturing (180) Leutwiler (0) (though he is in this camp, I don't see him at WCQ or after.) Elva (0) Brym (202) Bair (19) Bayiha (0) Twardek (0)

That still leaves a pool of 60 players, plus new players who will emerge.

Edited July 5, 2021 by MM3/MM2/MM

[El Hombre]

I think its too early to count out Zator or Borges.  Borges is only 22 and Zator seems ambitious so if he could find the right situation outside of CPL, things could happen for him.

Pasher just turned 27 and he's just now getting some recognition. 

[Obinna]

12 minutes ago, MM3/MM2/MM said:

I went over a list of every player Herdman has either played or had in camp who will probably never be called again:  Minutes played under Herdman ()

The easy ones (retired): De Jong (29) Johnson (151) Edgar (31) 

Not Likely: S. Thomas (0) Straith (0) Shome (78) Petrasso (45) Jakovic (59) Edwards (15) Didic (180) Zator (0) Bustos (0) Borges (19) Ricketts (247) Chapman (68) Morgan (133) Teibert (378)

Seem to be on the outs/need to play more/higher level: James (270) Cordova (0) Tabla (102) Sturing (180) Leutwiler (0) (though he is in this camp, I don't see him at WCQ or after.) Elva (0) Brym (202) Bair (19) Bayiha (0) Twardek (0)

That still leaves a pool of 60 players, plus new players who will emerge.

I would split that into two groups:

Extremely unlikely: Jakovic, Straith, Thomas, Morgan, Ricketts

Less than likely: Chapman, Teibert, Edwards, Didic, Zator, Bustos, Borges, Shome 

[Shway]

Where’s Scott Arfield?

[MM3/MM2/MM]

57 minutes ago, Shway said:

Where’s Scott Arfield?

Almost put him on the list.

Edited July 5, 2021 by MM3/MM2/MM

[Gian-Luca]

With all the triple-headers coming up in WCQ play, I am not sure that would put anyone who made the recent 60 man Gold Cup provisional roster on an "unlikely" list. With injuries, suspensions and squad turnover, it doesn't seem that unlikely that they could feature. I'd also add Raheem Edwards to that (he wasn't on the 60 man list, but seems to be the only Canadian getting regular minutes for an American MLS team who wasn't on it, maybe because left attacking winger seems to be our deepest spot with the emergence of Pasher, the potential continued progress of Shaffelburg in addition to Edwards along with Millar and Corbeanu, none of whom are first or possibly 2nd choice for that spot after David & Hoilett. Which one of these guys can we convert to a CB? 😉

[DavemTFC]

Teibert is still getting minutes in Vancouver and is a solid, veteran defensive option. I expect he'll at least be considered for some of our away games

[Shway]

22 minutes ago, DavemTFC said:

Teibert is still getting minutes in Vancouver and is a solid, veteran defensive option. I expect he'll at least be considered for some of our away games

Ya if Hutch and Arfield are officially done. Or if three of Eustaqiuo, Osorio, Kaye, Wotherspoon, Piette, or Fraser, aren't available. 

It'll be tough for Rusty to reappear. 

[CanadaFan123]

2 hours ago, DavemTFC said:

Teibert is still getting minutes in Vancouver and is a solid, veteran defensive option. I expect he'll at least be considered for some of our away games

He’s just such an uninspiring player. No confidence to ever try anything - simply holds position and has an awkward technique that makes it tough for him to shoot or pass effectively. He can cross and play short passes, that’s about it. When he took a shot last night I was shocked. The only role I could ever be comfortable with him having is as a late sub ... but even then we have so many other options. 

[toontownman]

6 hours ago, MM3/MM2/MM said:

Almost put him on the list.

Niggling injury, otherwise he would have been there.

[An Observer]

2 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:

He’s just such an uninspiring player. No confidence to ever try anything - simply holds position and has an awkward technique that makes it tough for him to shoot or pass effectively. He can cross and play short passes, that’s about it. When he took a shot last night I was shocked. The only role I could ever be comfortable with him having is as a late sub ... but even then we have so many other options. 

I honestly don't think he will ever play for Canada again.  And if he does, we are in trouble.  Sorry for being harsh.  I have always liked him personally and respect his commitment to the Caps and Canada.  

[BearcatSA]

I would never say "never" on anybody.  The Pasher selection sends the positive message that anything can happen if you work at it and build that body of work at club level.  Odds seem long for a few guys (such as Chapman, or Teibert) but you never know.  

[TGAA_Star]

I would not be surprised if Arfield ends up on this list and it would serve him right 

[Bison44]

I know this is going to sound silly, but Chapman and Tiebert both played in 2020 for Canada.  So saying they are long shots to get back in the picture is kind of strange.  Both those guys are getting a ton of minutes/starts in MLS...so depending on tactics and who is injured etc etc, I can see both of them getting calls in the future, even with the crowded midfield.  All these exciting kids arent going to pan out and Hutch/Arfield arent going to play forever.  Some of those guys on MMs list have barely played in MLS this year (Ricketts,Tabla, Bair, Bayhia), and we know Herdman likes in form guys.  Boy, this must be how French fans feel eh? Having such depth, that deserving in form guys dont get called, HEHEHE.  

[Kent]

22 hours ago, toontownman said:

Niggling injury, otherwise he would have been there.

His niggle is probably Euro Cup Fever.

[BearcatSA]

On 7/6/2021 at 8:40 AM, Bison44 said:

I know this is going to sound silly, but Chapman and Tiebert both played in 2020 for Canada.  So saying they are long shots to get back in the picture is kind of strange.  Both those guys are getting a ton of minutes/starts in MLS...

If Teibert wasn't with the Caps, would he even be in MLS?  And as an attacking/offensive midfielder, Chapman has produced one assist and four key passes:  with the transfer window now open, the second most disappointing/underachieving team in MLS will likely be trying to upgrade his spot.

I never say never but I stand by my long shot assertion.

[Bison44]

If you are talking the most underacheiving and dissapointing MLS club, I think you meant to say TFC, HAHAHA.    

[BearcatSA]

29 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

If you are talking the most underacheiving and dissapointing MLS club, I think you meant to say TFC, HAHAHA.    

That's why I wrote second most, which is what Beckham's Inter Miami is.

[MM3/MM2/MM]

Looking back on the list, I think only Brym has played any minutes and most here don't agree with the call-up, I think Sturing was called in but did not get any minutes.

[nolando]

On 7/8/2021 at 9:40 AM, BearcatSA said:

If Teibert wasn't with the Caps, would he even be in MLS?  

I was looking at his recently published salary at more than 350 K guaranteed and was thinking the same thing. It's almost like he's tenured staff or something benefiting from seniority.

Edited October 21, 2021 by nolando

[SthMelbRed]

2 hours ago, nolando said:

I was looking at his recently published salary at more than 350 K guaranteed and was thinking the same thing. It's almost like he's tenured staff or something benefiting from seniority.

As it stands today, the Vancouver Whitecaps are a playoff team in MLS. They are 7th in the Western Conference and 12th overall. If you look at their form over the past 3 months and extrapolated that across a whole season, you'd be looking at a top-three overall points total. Russell Teibert is the captain of that team and has played about 80% of the available league minutes over the course of the season. Yet we've got people here suggesting that he's only there as some form nepotism? Seriously, give your fucking heads a proper soak. He's far from the best player in MLS, but he's also far from the worst. He's a good midfielder of the type that are required in any successful team.

[Bison44]

Even 350 isnt bad for a mid that is a regular starter.  TFC has Oso on 850 and Delgado at 580 and they are not even the big boys.  Piette is 450..Teibert has been there a long time and maybe got a bit of a reward on his last contract, but its not crazy.  

[costarg]

10 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

As it stands today, the Vancouver Whitecaps are a playoff team in MLS. They are 7th in the Western Conference and 12th overall. If you look at their form over the past 3 months and extrapolated that across a whole season, you'd be looking at a top-three overall points total. Russell Teibert is the captain of that team and has played about 80% of the available league minutes over the course of the season. Yet we've got people here suggesting that he's only there as some form nepotism? Seriously, give your fucking heads a proper soak. He's far from the best player in MLS, but he's also far from the worst. He's a good midfielder of the type that are required in any successful team.

Just to further the discussion and analysis, I haven't seen any Caps games since early this season, I'm curious, how much of the Caps success the past 3 months can be attributed to Gauld playing in the midfield?  I feel like no one on here was considering Teibert for CANMNT before Gauld showed up and improved the Caps and the midfield specifically. 

Yes, he looks great now, but can it be because of someone else pulling the strings and exceeding expectations in the middle? Another way to look at it, is they form a great duo/trio, and thats the exact kind of player Teibert needs beside him to be really successful?  Either way, I'm loving his resurgence, hoping it continues.  The more talent challenging for CANMNT spots the better!

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

I love how intensely so many argue that the Caps relative success cannot be attributed to Teibert, fine.

How much of TFCs abject failure this season would you put on a starter and MNT member like Osorio? Or on Laryea?

In some teams you are allowed to hide and wallow for an entire season, bubble-wrapped; you get credit galore when others are there to bail the team out, and are untouchable when it comes to you failing to be a definitive player and pull the group out of the mire.

Look, I am fine with Osorio, in fact a lot. I think he gives the CMNT a lot of positives, no problem there. With Laryea, I am not sure, as his style does not always work for us and is sometimes a bit of a liability. All I am arguing is that at some point, club play, club minutes, and club success should all get built in when looking for merits for a CMNT call-up. We have no starters who are not also starting for their clubs (even Vitória more or less), which is great. My honest opinion is that Teibert should get a look over Liam Fraser, at least, and not be de facto overlooked when it comes to 27-man rosters featuring a bunch of guys injured for an entire window.

 

[Sal333]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I love how intensely so many argue that the Caps relative success cannot be attributed to Teibert, fine.

How much of TFCs abject failure this season would you put on a starter and MNT member like Osorio? Or on Laryea?

In some teams you are allowed to hide and wallow for an entire season, bubble-wrapped; you get credit galore when others are there to bail the team out, and are untouchable when it comes to you failing to be a definitive player and pull the group out of the mire.

Look, I am fine with Osorio, in fact a lot. I think he gives the CMNT a lot of positives, no problem there. With Laryea, I am not sure, as his style does not always work for us and is sometimes a bit of a liability. All I am arguing is that at some point, club play, club minutes, and club success should all get built in when looking for merits for a CMNT call-up. We have no starters who are not also starting for their clubs (even Vitória more or less), which is great. My honest opinion is that Teibert should get a look over Liam Fraser, at least, and not be de facto overlooked when it comes to 27-man rosters featuring a bunch of guys injured for an entire window.

 

If we look at the midfield depth chart, I suspect it's not Fraser that Teibert would displace but rather Piette.

Eustaquio

Hutchinson

Osorio

Kaye

Wotherspoon

Fraser

Piette

And does it really matter? The difference in quality may be negligible. And maybe Herdman sees no difference in quality between those 2 or 3 players but notices something else. Team chemistry?

In one of the last video I posted, Herdman spoke of walking into his first two camps and there were fights between the players and he wasn't happy about it. That tells me he looks at more than just a player's quality on the pitch. I'm not saying Teibert is not a team player. What I am saying is that maybe Herdman believes those other players bring something extra that is not visible in the play on the pitch.

Then again maybe the difference in quality between Fraser/Piette and Teibert is so small that it becomes a toss of the coin.