Canada's "bad" defense

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

Making bonehead plays and being uncomfortable in the system are two different things for me.

I think Vitoria and Henry tried some silly passes and were sometimes just being plain dozy.  Miller didn't seem to know where to be and where his teammates would be a lot of the time.

It is also nice when one of your outer CBs in a three can underlap at times (and someone in the midfield compensates) but that is not either Miller's nor Henry's game (to be fair from limited viewing on the former). 

Maybe it will come for Miller. 

[Colliedor]

Still strongly believe if you want to protect a bad backline, you add a extra midfielder. You need to crowd that space as much as possible. Adding an extra bad CB isn't going to make the other CB's miraculously play better. Even TFC showed this when they switched to a 5 with Armas and they ended up looking much worse. 

If he insists on still playing 5, then maybe it's time to think about playing with 1 striker instead. At the very least, maybe a Attacking mid role. We've seen David there with Gent. He covered the most distance in Belgium, he came back very deep.

[PopePouri]

Given how reactive this thread is based on individual games, I thought Vitoria and Miller were excellent with Dike and Zardes. The goal came from a result of not stopping the cross and not tracking the runner at the back post.

[An Observer]

2 minutes ago, PopePouri said:

Given how reactive this thread is based on individual games, I thought Vitoria and Miller were excellent with Dike and Zardes. The goal came from a result of not stopping the cross and not tracking the runner at the back post.

I agree.  Overall, the back 3 did well.  I think with Henry and Kennedy, this gives us some depth.  And if one of James, Cornelius or Justin Smith can get into form, maybe we are doing ok.  I personally like Johnston in the back 3 and we saw that alot in the Euros where you have one of your back 3 who is an FB so generally better with the ball (although had some poor moments today) but perhaps giving up some height/toughness that are compensated for by the other 2.

[Gian-Luca]

I also wonder if Adekugbe might be able to slot into a back three. Given the wing options we have especially at left wing, I'm not seeing a great need to play him as left winger.

[Northvansteve]

Until now, I had not appreciated how good Vitoria's passing is out of the back. (Dribbling and foot work is another story!) 

[TOcanadafan]

I don’t think our D had much to do after conceding.  With the exception of the first half minute which lead to the goal, the US played ultra conservative and didn’t attack in numbers.  Not sure their wingbacks ever bombed forward after that first attack, and their midfielders weren’t too adventurous- Dike and Zardes pretty much had to do everything themselves with no support.  
 

Our back 3 (or 5 when you throw in our wingbacks) run into problems when teams throw multiple attackers forward and they become confused as to who they should take.  I’m still worried if we play a side that attacks us consistently with numbers. 

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Northvansteve said:

Until now, I had not appreciated how good Vitoria's passing is out of the back. (Dribbling and foot work is another story!) 

That really stood out for me as well. Several line splitting passes that we didn't see from the Miller or Johnston. 

Despite the early goal, I think/hope this game does a little bit to dispell the myth our defense is terrible (it's not our stregth, of course). Miller was solid overall, Vitoria and Johnston were good as well.

One thing we need is a back up for Johnston, or at least some competition. Henry is not comfortable playing out of the back when he is not in the middle, Cornelius is left footed, Kennedy is obviously left footed too, and Bassong as been playing LCB for Montreal.

I think Waterman would be next man up but he doesn't make our best squad, same goes for James. Seems like a hole in our lineup at the moment.

Maybe Brault-Guillard can play there, but since he would be a cover and not a dedicated RCB I don't see us carrying him and Johnston and Laryea. 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Obinna

[VinceA]

8 hours ago, Obinna said:

That really stood out for me as well. Several line splitting passes that we didn't see from the Miller or Johnston. 

Despite the early goal, I think/hope this game does a little bit to dispell the myth our defense is terrible (it's not our stregth, of course). Miller was solid overall, Vitoria and Johnston were good as well.

One thing we need is a back up for Johnston, or at least some competition. Henry is not comfortable playing out of the back when he is not in the middle, Cornelius is left footed, Kennedy is obviously left footed too, and Bassong as been playing LCB for Montreal.

I think Waterman would be next man up but he doesn't make our best squad, same goes for James. Seems like a hole in our lineup at the moment.

Maybe Brault-Guillard can play there, but since he would be a cover and not a dedicated RCB I don't see us carrying him and Johnston and Laryea. 

I think for now It's Johnston but a regular game getting James could get into the XI. Otherwise the only other player who plays that position regularly is Waterman but he needs to keep playing regularly for Montreal and improve his game.

[PopePouri]

8 hours ago, Obinna said:

That really stood out for me as well. Several line splitting passes that we didn't see from the Miller or Johnston. 

Despite the early goal, I think/hope this game does a little bit to dispell the myth our defense is terrible (it's not our stregth, of course). Miller was solid overall, Vitoria and Johnston were good as well.

One thing we need is a back up for Johnston, or at least some competition. Henry is not comfortable playing out of the back when he is not in the middle, Cornelius is left footed, Kennedy is obviously left footed too, and Bassong as been playing LCB for Montreal.

I think Waterman would be next man up but he doesn't make our best squad, same goes for James. Seems like a hole in our lineup at the moment.

Maybe Brault-Guillard can play there, but since he would be a cover and not a dedicated RCB I don't see us carrying him and Johnston and Laryea. 

Agreed about the backup for Johnston. My hope is that Waterman will now get a run of games with Struna out/gone/who knows?. He looked great up until his injury last month and he's just coming back. Didn't look good in the FCC game.

[narduch]

I'm not really worried about our individual defenders.

The real cause for concern is our slow starts. We are getting a reputation of letting in cheap early goals.

That will be devastating if it happens in WCQ. Teams will just park the bus afterwards.

This is the #1 issue we need to be working on.

[dyslexic nam]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

I'm not really worried about our individual defenders.

The real cause for concern is our slow starts. We are getting a reputation of letting in cheap early goals.

That will be devastating if it happens in WCQ. Teams will just park the bus afterwards.

This is the #1 issue we need to be working on.

Yeah, it seems like we need to up the intensity of our last few warm up activities or something to get guys moving (and thinking) at game speed. These sluggish starts where we decide to dig ourselves a hole to climb out of, are killers.  

[Shway]

Just had me thinking, we’ve played 14 games of 19 this year with an overall record of 10W-2L-2D. Our stats in those games are 8GA and 47GF.

3 of the goals against were straight goalie blunders (Bermuda, Haiti GC, & Martinique). The rest were a 2-1 loss to Mexico (GC), 1 - 0 loss USA (GC), 1-1 draw against Honduras and 1-1 draw against USA. Of those games 2 goals were penalties, 1 conceded by a defender. 

I know we’ve talked about our defence being our weakest position, but this is now just a moot point. There was the convo that we haven’t played anyone, but then bossed games against CR, USA x2, Mexico and should’ve beat Honduras.

We have become defensively sound in the 352, and that’s with seeing Henry, Kennedy, Miller, Johnston, Vitoria, Sturing and Ferreira all appear/ be rotated with each other.  

Like Doneil said, it’s not just about 3 guys defending but the entire 10 guys defending like a unit, and I think that has been the real revelation to a lot of the doubters. Especially the ones who believed that putting another CB in the backline wouldn’t help. 

There’s an argument to say our defending might be our strong point. 

[Sal333]

44 minutes ago, Shway said:

Just had me thinking, we’ve played 14 games of 19 this year with an overall record of 10W-2L-2D. Our stats in those games are 8GA and 47GF.

3 of the goals against were straight goalie blunders (Bermuda, Haiti GC, & Martinique). The rest were a 2-1 loss to Mexico (GC), 1 - 0 loss USA (GC), 1-1 draw against Honduras and 1-1 draw against USA. Of those games 2 goals were penalties, 1 conceded by a defender. 

I know we’ve talked about our defence being our weakest position, but this is now just a moot point. There was the convo that we haven’t played anyone, but then bossed games against CR, USA x2, Mexico and should’ve beat Honduras.

We have become defensively sound in the 352, and that’s with seeing Henry, Kennedy, Miller, Johnston, Vitoria, Sturing and Ferreira all appear/ be rotated with each other.  

Like Doneil said, it’s not just about 3 guys defending but the entire 10 guys defending like a unit, and I think that has been the real revelation to a lot of the doubters. Especially the ones who believed that putting another CB in the backline wouldn’t help. 

There’s an argument to say our defending might be our strong point. 

If I had to rate the different parts of our team:

1) Strikers & wingers

2) Midfielders

3) Goaltending

4) defending line.

Victoria is a decent enough CB but has very little pace. Miller is a good player except in the air. He has trouble with aerial duels. I've seen enough of him on the Montreal team to know. Johnston  so far is top notch. For the longest time Doneil was my favorite player but he is prone to the occasional disastrous play. Kennedy hasn't played enough to judge.

Our defense isn't bad but when we're in the WC (I said when and not if) that defense will be our Achilles heel.

Edited September 10, 2021 by Sal333

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

If I had to rate the different parts of our team:

1) Strikers & wingers

2) Midfielders

3) Goaltending

4) defending line.

Victoria is a decent enough CB but has very little pace. Miller is a good player except in the air. He has trouble with aerial duels. I've seen enough of him on the Montreal team to know. Johnston  so far is top notch. For the longest time Doneil was my favorite player but he is prone to the occasional disastrous play. Kennedy hasn't played enough to judge.

Our defense isn't bad but when we're in the WC (I said when and not if) that defense will be our Achilles heel.

No problem with this take. 

All of your assessments seem accurate to me.

Let's face it, very few teams (if any) are flawless in every single area. If you scrutinize hard enough, you will find a soft point to poke at. 

But you said it, our defense isn't bad. Only 1 team (Panama) has conceded fewer goals in the Ocho thus far. Objectively the team with the worst defense right now is Jamaica, actually.

But yeah, I am happy to say the narrative of our bad defense is slowly fading away. Our ability to get men behind the ball in Nashville and shut things down went a long way, I think.

[Gian-Luca]

1 hour ago, Shway said:

Just had me thinking, we’ve played 14 games of 19 this year with an overall record of 10W-2L-2D. Our stats in those games are 8GA and 47GF.

3 of the goals against were straight goalie blunders (Bermuda, Haiti GC, & Martinique). The rest were a 2-1 loss to Mexico (GC), 1 - 0 loss USA (GC), 1-1 draw against Honduras and 1-1 draw against USA. Of those games 2 goals were penalties, 1 conceded by a defender. 

I know we’ve talked about our defence being our weakest position, but this is now just a moot point. There was the convo that we haven’t played anyone, but then bossed games against CR, USA x2, Mexico and should’ve beat Honduras.

We have become defensively sound in the 352, and that’s with seeing Henry, Kennedy, Miller, Johnston, Vitoria, Sturing and Ferreira all appear/ be rotated with each other.  

Like Doneil said, it’s not just about 3 guys defending but the entire 10 guys defending like a unit, and I think that has been the real revelation to a lot of the doubters. Especially the ones who believed that putting another CB in the backline wouldn’t help. 

There’s an argument to say our defending might be our strong point. 

Not sure that I recall the goals conceded to Haiti and Martinique as being pure Crepeau gaffes - wasn’t the Martinique one a Kaye gaffe/giveaway?

[Kadenge]

1 hour ago, Shway said:

Just had me thinking, we’ve played 14 games of 19 this year with an overall record of 10W-2L-2D. Our stats in those games are 8GA and 47GF.

3 of the goals against were straight goalie blunders (Bermuda, Haiti GC, & Martinique). The rest were a 2-1 loss to Mexico (GC), 1 - 0 loss USA (GC), 1-1 draw against Honduras and 1-1 draw against USA. Of those games 2 goals were penalties, 1 conceded by a defender. 

I know we’ve talked about our defence being our weakest position, but this is now just a moot point. There was the convo that we haven’t played anyone, but then bossed games against CR, USA x2, Mexico and should’ve beat Honduras.

We have become defensively sound in the 352, and that’s with seeing Henry, Kennedy, Miller, Johnston, Vitoria, Sturing and Ferreira all appear/ be rotated with each other.  

Like Doneil said, it’s not just about 3 guys defending but the entire 10 guys defending like a unit, and I think that has been the real revelation to a lot of the doubters. Especially the ones who believed that putting another CB in the backline wouldn’t help. 

There’s an argument to say our defending might be our strong point. 

...but Alistair Johnston is not a CB and he has been without doubt the best of the defenders.  I think the early concern was playing 3 CBs from our pool and this was before Kennedy "emerged" v Suriname and Miller had that great run in the GC...but I agree 100% that our team defense/defensive shield has improved significantly

[canuckgbp]

We also have no one to replace Johnston as a RCB. He is integral to a 3 at the back. We haven't seen this defence without him in a while. Henry at RCB gets exposed out in space. RCB also has to be good on the ball. 

If Johnston can't go for whatever reason the only real option is Henry at the moment. 

[Wayverider]

A huge component of the back line’s refinement and sudden maturity has been Johnston’s meteoric rise. Take us back a little more than a year - I never saw that coming. I feel very confident in his ability to handle intense pressure. 

In the previous round of WC qualifying we were hearing that Kennedy was a beast in practice and emerging at a very fast pace. In fairness to him he simply became unhinged for one glaring mistake against the US, and then compounded it by not busting his ass to get goal side of the mark that scored the goal (but he also acquired an injury on the play so I might be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt). I certainly don’t want to make the mistake of undermining his development because of a few seconds segment in one game. Herdsman will manage him fine.

Finally never underestimate the value of a solid back line effectively holding their shape when an experienced group of defensively minded midfielders are playing in front of them. For the first time in years we have a wealth of midfield talent to not only start games, but also rotate in when injuries and fatigue inevitably materialize. 

[dyslexic nam]

Full credit to the guys doing the job for us in defence.  That have played pretty damn well over the summer and despite not necessarily having the pedigree of our attack, they have definitely punched above their weight.  I think this is in part because the 3-5-2 formation allows two defensively solid mids (who are pretty pacy given the personnel we use) to come back and support the back line when under pressure. 

But having said all that and in light of the debate around (hypothetically) incorporating a guy like Tomori, I would have to note that there is still room for improvement.  As someone noted in the dual poll thread, a guy like Sammy Piette was a very solid player for us and I absolutely respect his commitment - but that doesn’t change the fact that when Eustaquio came on board, his quality was immediately apparent and he quickly relegated Piette to a backup role.  If someone like Tomori became available to us it would be crazy not to jump at the chance to immediately integrate him into our lineup.  The quality of our defence would immediately become more on par with the attack and midfield. 

Has the defence done a solid job over the last few months?   Absolutely.  But that doesn’t change the fact that it is still our weakest area relative to the strength and depth in rest of the team, and the most susceptible to a key injury or two (though this is definitely improving).  

[Stryker911]

19 minutes ago, canuckgbp said:

We also have no one to replace Johnston as a RCB. He is integral to a 3 at the back. We haven't seen this defence without him in a while. Henry at RCB gets exposed out in space. RCB also has to be good on the ball. 

If Johnston can't go for whatever reason the only real option is Henry at the moment. 

If Johnston can't play then we absolutely have to play a back 4. Laryea, ZBG, Guitteriez, and Bassong are all pretty solid option to put in at RB.  

[costarg]

3 hours ago, Sal333 said:

If I had to rate the different parts of our team:

1) Strikers & wingers

2) Midfielders

3) Goaltending

4) defending line.

Victoria is a decent enough CB but has very little pace. Miller is a good player except in the air. He has trouble with aerial duels. I've seen enough of him on the Montreal team to know. Johnston  so far is top notch. For the longest time Doneil was my favorite player but he is prone to the occasional disastrous play. Kennedy hasn't played enough to judge.

Our defense isn't bad but when we're in the WC (I said when and not if) that defense will be our Achilles heel.

It's a slow Friday, how about we make this post explode by adding "coaching" to the list?  Where would you rate us???

[dyslexic nam]

8 minutes ago, costarg said:

It's a slow Friday, how about we make this post explode by adding "coaching" to the list?  Where would you rate us???

[Sal333]

2 hours ago, costarg said:

It's a slow Friday, how about we make this post explode by adding "coaching" to the list?  Where would you rate us???

Okay I'm game. I'd put coaching between our strikers/wingers and our midfield. In second spot. Let the fireworks begin.

[gator]

5 hours ago, canuckgbp said:

We also have no one to replace Johnston as a RCB. He is integral to a 3 at the back. We haven't seen this defence without him in a while. Henry at RCB gets exposed out in space. RCB also has to be good on the ball. 

If Johnston can't go for whatever reason the only real option is Henry at the moment. 

 

4 hours ago, Stryker911 said:

If Johnston can't play then we absolutely have to play a back 4. Laryea, ZBG, Guitteriez, and Bassong are all pretty solid option to put in at RB.  

I have been watching ZBG a bit lately, he seems quite versatile and actually looks very good most times I see him, maybe he could seamlessly slot into that RCB position?