Biennial World Cup Proposal

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

The patronizing condescension from Cox is nothing new

Boy, we read this article differently. So I'll take it you hate the idea.

[CanadianSoccerFan]

44 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Boy, we read this article differently. So I'll take it you hate the idea.

 

It's not about the idea, it's who's saying it and their real motives to do so.

You have to read between the lines within the context of who is writing it.  He's written a lot of things in the past where it's clear that he looks down his nose on the rest of the football world with thinly veiled disdain.  

This is like the elites explaining to the working class that they would be "better off" playing amongst themselves when the real reason is they don't want to mix with those they perceive as the riff raff. This is precisely how UEFA is behaving.  Walling themselves off from the rest of the world within their own confined ecosystem where the only time they want to play anyone but themselves is this new intercontinental cup with the Copa America champion.  

 

[Watchmen]

12 minutes ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

 

It's not about the idea, it's who's saying it and their real motives to do so.

You have to read between the lines within the context of who is writing it.  He's written a lot of things in the past where it's clear that he looks down his nose on the rest of the football world with thinly veiled disdain.  

This is like the elites explaining to the working class that they would be "better off" playing amongst themselves when the real reason is they don't want to mix with those they perceive as the riff raff. This is precisely how UEFA is behaving.  Walling themselves off from the rest of the world within their own confined ecosystem where the only time they want to play anyone but themselves is this new intercontinental cup with the Copa America champion.  

 

So do you hate the idea or not?  You still haven't answered that.  Also, UEFA aren't "walling themselves off from the rest of the world" in this instance  They love the World Cup....every 4 years.  And this board has been vehemently against a World Cup every 2 years as well.  So if you hate this idea, that's fine and the author is irrelevant.  If you don't, then you're really just angry that someone you hate had a good idea.

[One American]

By expanding to 48 teams, they watered down World Cup Qualifying so that there's no risk to any of the big teams. Now they want to double that and eliminate actual competitive tournaments.  

[The Ref]

Infantino is traveling visiting different countries looking for support to his plan of World Cups every 2 years.

[lamptern]

3 hours ago, The Ref said:

Infantino is traveling visiting different countries looking for support to his plan of World Cups every 2 years.

He's gone too far......

[CanadianSoccerFan]

On 10/14/2021 at 8:50 PM, Watchmen said:

So do you hate the idea or not?  You still haven't answered that.  Also, UEFA aren't "walling themselves off from the rest of the world" in this instance  They love the World Cup....every 4 years.  And this board has been vehemently against a World Cup every 2 years as well.  So if you hate this idea, that's fine and the author is irrelevant.  If you don't, then you're really just angry that someone you hate had a good idea.

It's just creating a fake new competition out of nothing with no meaning.  It's not even about the format or the teams.  I feel the same about the CONCACAF Nations League where the only part of it people care about it is the ranking impact for World Cup qualifying, the thing that actually matters.  Fake competitions are just getting created out of thin air to kill time in the long wait between the real competitions that actually matter.

If the World Cup cycle was shortened to three years (my personal preference) then none of this other stuff would be necessary.  Players would get a summer off, there would be a free summer for the Women's World Cup, the Gold Cup would no longer happen in the middle of WCQ, and the three years is still long enough for people to miss it.  It bothers me that the debate is always 2 or 4.

 

-------------

As for UEFA walling themselves off, FIFA is not the only party with ulterior motives.  20 years ago, UEFA's only commercial involvement in international football was running the short 23 day, 16 team version of the Euros.  All other international football in Europe was owned and controlled by the individual national associations including qualifiers with plenty of time and agency to play games against the rest of the world. 

Gianni Infantino was the business mind at UEFA during a period of change.  He first convinced all countries to come together and package all TV and commercial rights  through UEFA as a single seller, essentially seizing control of the qualifiers as a property.  Next was the Nations League, owned and controlled by UEFA.  In spite of the claims it was "just to replace friendlies", it was really an attempt to seize commercial and political control of ALL international football played by UEFA members and crown champions every year except one (the World Cup year).  Between the ensuing expansion of the Nations League to 6 group games and expansion of the Euro to 31 days, UEFA has created a walled off commercial ecosystem where every game their members play outside of the World Cup is centrally managed by UEFA through their own competitions and commercial agreements.  In other words, they've created an empire worth billions.  

A biennial world cup threatens all of that because this is ultimately a zero sum game. Sponsors and broadcasters do not have bottomless pockets.  Doubling the frequency of the World Cup means billions more will flow to FIFA that would have otherwise flowed to UEFA for their own competitions.  Add to that, when the discussion comes to devaluing tournaments, UEFA knows deep down that the Euro would be devalued even more than the World Cup and would be at risk of getting the "off-year" stigma that could lead to weakened sides.  Once that happens, it's game over.  They would also have to scrap the Nations League and all of the commercial agreements they have signed for it.

This coming summer, UEFA is forcing all members to play no less than 4 UEFA Nations League matches before the early start of next season, the same match load as a round of 16 run at a major tournament.  Italy has it the worst. After playing deep into July last year for the Euro, they had to play the covid year Nations League final 4 including a 3rd place game last month, and this coming summer will have to play the new intercontinental championship match against Argentina that UEFA just agreed to in their political alliance.  That plus the 4 Nations League games.  This after Ceferin stood on the moral high ground about players needing summers off.  But of course these games are all controlled by UEFA so all of a sudden it's not a problem.

Getting to the point, UEFA is not just some moral arbiter out to protect the sanctity of the game.  They're out for themselves just like FIFA.  When they say they "prefer" 4 years or they "care about player rest", look at the hypocrisy of the statements and all of the commercial and political power they stand to lose by ceding calendar space and money to a rival entity.  This isn't two parties debating the merits of the tournament timing, it's a gunfight for money and control.

 

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by CanadianSoccerFan

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

It's just creating a fake new competition out of nothing with no meaning.  It's not even about the format or the teams.  I feel the same about the CONCACAF Nations League where the only part of it people care about it is the ranking impact for World Cup qualifying, the thing that actually matters.  Fake competitions are just getting created out of thin air to kill time in the long wait between the real competitions that actually matter.

If the World Cup cycle was shortened to three years (my personal preference) then none of this other stuff would be necessary.  Players would get a summer off, there would be a free summer for the Women's World Cup, the Gold Cup would no longer happen in the middle of WCQ, and the three years is still long enough for people to miss it.  It bothers me that the debate is always 2 or 4.

 

-------------

As for UEFA walling themselves off, FIFA is not the only party with ulterior motives.  20 years ago, UEFA's only commercial involvement in international football was running the short 23 day, 16 team version of the Euros.  All other international football in Europe was owned and controlled by the individual national associations including qualifiers with plenty of time and agency to play games against the rest of the world. 

Gianni Infantino was the business mind at UEFA during a period of change.  He first convinced all countries to come together and package all TV and commercial rights  through UEFA as a single seller, essentially seizing control of the qualifiers as a property.  Next was the Nations League, owned and controlled by UEFA.  In spite of the claims it was "just to replace friendlies", it was really an attempt to seize commercial and political control of ALL international football played by UEFA members and crown champions every year except one (the World Cup year).  Between the ensuing expansion of the Nations League to 6 group games and expansion of the Euro to 31 days, UEFA has created a walled off commercial ecosystem where every game their members play outside of the World Cup is centrally managed by UEFA through their own competitions and commercial agreements.  In other words, they've created an empire worth billions.  

A biennial world cup threatens all of that because this is ultimately a zero sum game. Sponsors and broadcasters do not have bottomless pockets.  Doubling the frequency of the World Cup means billions more will flow to FIFA that would have otherwise flowed to UEFA for their own competitions.  Add to that, when the discussion comes to devaluing tournaments, UEFA knows deep down that the Euro would be devalued even more than the World Cup and would be at risk of getting the "off-year" stigma that could lead to weakened sides.  Once that happens, it's game over.  They would also have to scrap the Nations League and all of the commercial agreements they have signed for it.

This coming summer, UEFA is forcing all members to play no less than 4 UEFA Nations League matches before the early start of next season, the same match load as a round of 16 run at a major tournament.  Italy has it the worst. After playing deep into July last year for the Euro, they had to play the covid year Nations League final 4 including a 3rd place game last month, and this coming summer will have to play the new intercontinental championship match against Argentina that UEFA just agreed to in their political alliance.  That plus the 4 Nations League games.  This after Ceferin stood on the moral high ground about players needing summers off.  But of course these games are all controlled by UEFA so all of a sudden it's not a problem.

Getting to the point, UEFA is not just some moral arbiter out to protect the sanctity of the game.  They're out for themselves just like FIFA.  When they say they "prefer" 4 years or they "care about player rest", look at the hypocrisy of the statements and all of the commercial and political power they stand to lose by ceding calendar space and money to a rival entity.  This isn't two parties debating the merits of the tournament timing, it's a gunfight for money and control.

 

 

You can prefer every 3 years and it's an interesting idea, but it's irrelevant.  It's not part of this debate because it's not what's been proposed and because that's not what UEFA and FIFA are arguing about.  They're arguing about 2 or 4, and in that debate I'd choose every 4 years, the same as UEFA and I'm open to listening to how to fill that extra time.  So if your options are every 2 or every 4, which are you choosing?

And yes, I don't disagree that it's about power and money.  And if FIFA votes for every 2 years, I'll be interested to see what UEFA does.  It's not inconceivable that they shrug, hold the Euro's the same year, and don't bother to send any teams to the "World Cup".  At which point, it's not a World Cup and the sponsors and fans know it. 

[johnyb]

18 hours ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

It's just creating a fake new competition out of nothing with no meaning.  It's not even about the format or the teams.  I feel the same about the CONCACAF Nations League where the only part of it people care about it is the ranking impact for World Cup qualifying, the thing that actually matters.  Fake competitions are just getting created out of thin air to kill time in the long wait between the real competitions that actually matter.

If the World Cup cycle was shortened to three years (my personal preference) then none of this other stuff would be necessary.  Players would get a summer off, there would be a free summer for the Women's World Cup, the Gold Cup would no longer happen in the middle of WCQ, and the three years is still long enough for people to miss it.  It bothers me that the debate is always 2 or 4.

 

-------------

As for UEFA walling themselves off, FIFA is not the only party with ulterior motives.  20 years ago, UEFA's only commercial involvement in international football was running the short 23 day, 16 team version of the Euros.  All other international football in Europe was owned and controlled by the individual national associations including qualifiers with plenty of time and agency to play games against the rest of the world. 

Gianni Infantino was the business mind at UEFA during a period of change.  He first convinced all countries to come together and package all TV and commercial rights  through UEFA as a single seller, essentially seizing control of the qualifiers as a property.  Next was the Nations League, owned and controlled by UEFA.  In spite of the claims it was "just to replace friendlies", it was really an attempt to seize commercial and political control of ALL international football played by UEFA members and crown champions every year except one (the World Cup year).  Between the ensuing expansion of the Nations League to 6 group games and expansion of the Euro to 31 days, UEFA has created a walled off commercial ecosystem where every game their members play outside of the World Cup is centrally managed by UEFA through their own competitions and commercial agreements.  In other words, they've created an empire worth billions.  

A biennial world cup threatens all of that because this is ultimately a zero sum game. Sponsors and broadcasters do not have bottomless pockets.  Doubling the frequency of the World Cup means billions more will flow to FIFA that would have otherwise flowed to UEFA for their own competitions.  Add to that, when the discussion comes to devaluing tournaments, UEFA knows deep down that the Euro would be devalued even more than the World Cup and would be at risk of getting the "off-year" stigma that could lead to weakened sides.  Once that happens, it's game over.  They would also have to scrap the Nations League and all of the commercial agreements they have signed for it.

This coming summer, UEFA is forcing all members to play no less than 4 UEFA Nations League matches before the early start of next season, the same match load as a round of 16 run at a major tournament.  Italy has it the worst. After playing deep into July last year for the Euro, they had to play the covid year Nations League final 4 including a 3rd place game last month, and this coming summer will have to play the new intercontinental championship match against Argentina that UEFA just agreed to in their political alliance.  That plus the 4 Nations League games.  This after Ceferin stood on the moral high ground about players needing summers off.  But of course these games are all controlled by UEFA so all of a sudden it's not a problem.

Getting to the point, UEFA is not just some moral arbiter out to protect the sanctity of the game.  They're out for themselves just like FIFA.  When they say they "prefer" 4 years or they "care about player rest", look at the hypocrisy of the statements and all of the commercial and political power they stand to lose by ceding calendar space and money to a rival entity.  This isn't two parties debating the merits of the tournament timing, it's a gunfight for money and control.

 

 

Moving the WC to every 3 years would mean the Euro's would have to move to every 3 years to avoid conflicting schedules as well. I see this as a positive not a negative.  

[narduch]

19 hours ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

It's just creating a fake new competition out of nothing with no meaning.  It's not even about the format or the teams.  I feel the same about the CONCACAF Nations League where the only part of it people care about it is the ranking impact for World Cup qualifying, the thing that actually matters.  Fake competitions are just getting created out of thin air to kill time in the long wait between the real competitions that actually matter.

This is exactly how I feel about Leagues Cup.

I'm probably in the minority for not hating the World Cup every 2 years. 

I'm just not sure how it works logistically 

 

[Free kick]

I dont hate the idea either.    Confession:  i have not read most of this thread and i am just jumping in here at the last page therefore i may sound repetitive.

The way i see it (from our perspective in North america) is that the biggest challenges and resistence is in Europe. And that makes sence because of the lucrative club and national competitions that are lenghty and drawn out.

But we live in north america, where in essence, we would replacing the Gold cup with another world cup.  Why would anyone object to that?  There are downsides in terms of loss of prestige when you go from every four years to every two years.  You would also render the WCQ qualifying matches less meaningful.  Yes, logistically it could really be a nightmare.   But no, i dont hate the idea of a WC every two years.
 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Free kick

[CanadianSoccerFan]

18 hours ago, Watchmen said:

So if your options are every 2 or every 4, which are you choosing?

And yes, I don't disagree that it's about power and money.  And if FIFA votes for every 2 years, I'll be interested to see what UEFA does.  It's not inconceivable that they shrug, hold the Euro's the same year, and don't bother to send any teams to the "World Cup".  At which point, it's not a World Cup and the sponsors and fans know it. 

If I had to choose, I would lean towards 2 years.  I have reservations about the issue of scarcity but from a purely Canadian point of view, I feel it benefits us more.  A 48 team World Cup every two years with Canada participating would be a powerful way to keep the team in the mainstream consciousness here in Canada.  UEFA has plenty to lose as I've written above, but I'm not convinced Canada does.  

That said, I'm now 90% sure this is not going to happen anyway.  UEFA has played the "breakaway organization" card this week and it appears to have worked.  

I've added a poll to this thread.  I'd encourage everyone to weigh in.  

[Watchmen]

9 hours ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

If I had to choose, I would lean towards 2 years.  I have reservations about the issue of scarcity but from a purely Canadian point of view, I feel it benefits us more.  A 48 team World Cup every two years with Canada participating would be a powerful way to keep the team in the mainstream consciousness here in Canada.  UEFA has plenty to lose as I've written above, but I'm not convinced Canada does.  

That said, I'm now 90% sure this is not going to happen anyway.  UEFA has played the "breakaway organization" card this week and it appears to have worked.  

I've added a poll to this thread.  I'd encourage everyone to weigh in.  

Fair enough. As I've said, I'm more interested in a World Cup every 4 years and strong continental competitions in between (ideally, I'd prefer the combined Copa again, but that's a separate discussion)

Edited October 23, 2021 by Watchmen

[CanadianSoccerFan]

In the background of all this, UEFA and CONMEBOL are laying the foundations for a breakaway organization. 

UEFA and CONMEBOL have formed an official partnership and are opening a joint office in London.  They've already announced the quadrennial Copa vs Euro match to be held every four years. 

Now the bombshell.  Gazzetta is reporting that UEFA and CONMEBOL will be launching their own joint tournament the summer after the World Cup with 4 UEFA and 4 CONMEBOL teams.  

https://www.gazzetta.it/Calcio/Estero/20-10-2021/mondiale-biennale-scontro-totale-l-uefa-pensa-nations-league-le-sudamericane-4201932211504.shtml

It's becoming more clear why CONMEBOL flipped sides on the biennial World Cup after campaigning for it themselves 3 years ago.  

[CanadianSoccerFan]

Vic lamenting the loss of the Confederations Cup.  Discusses compromises of a global nations league final tournament, return of the Confederations Cup, or something else entirely if the biennial proposal fails.

https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/exclusive-soccer-fifa-vice-president-montagliani-offers-compromise-world-cup-2021-12-02/

 

I think the Confederations Cup was an underrated tournament with the potential to become something bigger.  The 2013 tournament in Brazil was fantastic.

[CanadianSoccerFan]

 

Finally hearing Vic's opinion on the subject.  Relevant part starts 11 minutes in.  He seems non-committal and evasive.  Not happy about the proposed changes to international breaks or the previous scrapping of the Confederations Cup.

 

[CanadianSoccerFan]

Some huge developments.  Nations League will be a joint CONMEBOL-UEFA competition starting in 2024 and UEFA is fast tracking the bidding process for Euro 2032 to pre-empt FIFA's World Cup plans.  FIFA's backup plan for a biennial World Cup is a Global Nations League and UEFA is plotting to kill both in the womb.  

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/uefa-nations-league/story/4550365/argentinabrazil-set-to-join-expanded-uefa-nations-league-from-2024

http://www.insideworldfootball.com/2021/12/17/uefa-doubles-opening-host-bidding-2028-2032-euros/

Edited December 17, 2021 by CanadianSoccerFan

[Cheeta]

Are we still talking about this?

Apparently.  I just want to know what's Arfield's part in all this.

[CanadianSoccerFan]

FIFA holding its global virtual summit on this today. FA presidents are highly engaged.

 

[SpursFlu]

On 12/17/2021 at 9:17 AM, CanadianSoccerFan said:

Some huge developments.  Nations League will be a joint CONMEBOL-UEFA competition starting in 2024 and UEFA is fast tracking the bidding process for Euro 2032 to pre-empt FIFA's World Cup plans.  FIFA's backup plan for a biennial World Cup is a Global Nations League and UEFA is plotting to kill both in the womb.  

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/uefa-nations-league/story/4550365/argentinabrazil-set-to-join-expanded-uefa-nations-league-from-2024

http://www.insideworldfootball.com/2021/12/17/uefa-doubles-opening-host-bidding-2028-2032-euros/

This is a big deal. Also in a very strange move, FIFA now sanctions the Arab Cup. Im not sure that's appropriate. I would like to see Concacaf get on the side of UEFA and Conmebol. 

[prairiecanuck]

On 10/22/2021 at 2:14 PM, narduch said:

This is exactly how I feel about Leagues Cup.

I'm probably in the minority for not hating the World Cup every 2 years. 

I'm just not sure how it works logistically 

 

The world cup is the ultimate thrill.  I would love having that feeling every 2 years instead of 4, but can you work out the qualifying logistics, the regional tournaments?  That's for people far smarter than myself.  If it can't but could be accommodated every 3 years, then that would be preferable to 4.

 

[TOcanadafan]

21 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

This is a big deal. Also in a very strange move, FIFA now sanctions the Arab Cup. Im not sure that's appropriate. I would like to see Concacaf get on the side of UEFA and Conmebol. 

I agree with this.  Not sure why any nation other than Brazil or Argentina would be invited to the A-group… the other nations in Conmebol are on a downward trajectory.  They should just go all-in and invite US, Mexico and Canada.

[RJB]

FIFA will ultimately make themselves irrelevant if they keep pushing like they do. Don't forget how corrupt they are!  They are supposed to shepherds, and not going around making financial decisions, and a two year world cup cycle is financial.  

[TOcanadafan]

3 hours ago, prairiecanuck said:

The world cup is the ultimate thrill.  I would love having that feeling every 2 years instead of 4, but can you work out the qualifying logistics, the regional tournaments?  That's for people far smarter than myself.  If it can't but could be accommodated every 3 years, then that would be preferable to 4.

 

FIFA found the correct balance IMO at 32 teams and now get greedy and go to 48 teams and now wanting the WC to happen every 2 years.  UEFA had a good thing at 16 teams and then diluted things by going to 24.  Plus they had success in creating the Nations League in the first place… now they want to mess with that. 
With that said, i could see a ‘compromise’ by having the WC occur every 3 years.  To reduce the amount of qualifiers, have federations use the results of their regional tournaments like EURO (which could occur 1 year before the WC) as the qualifiers for the World Cup.  That would mean the only qualifiers needed would be for each federation’s own tournament.

Edited December 21, 2021 by TOcanadafan

[nazzer]

How do you even do qualifying if it's every two years? We just gonna do stuff like the original plan for CONCACAF where every country no longer gets a fair shake to save time?

And if you do it every two years it isn't special anymore.