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Could Canada overtake Mexico next cycle?


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7 hours ago, El Diego said:

Canada will not "overtake" Mexico (in any reasonable sense of the word) in our life times, and very possibly ever.

 

7 hours ago, red card said:

This thread was of course created by an American. It's the type of dream sequencing internet posts you see all over US soccer forums. It's why some of their fan base are delusional. They assume their dominance in other sports can easily be transposed to soccer. 

Structurally, Canada will not catch up to Mexico in anyone's lifetime on this forum. We were wandering in the football wilderness till the 70s. Most of Canada just learned the World Cup existed in 82 when it was on tv for the first time. Our league is 3 years old. Iceland has more Uefa licensed coaches than Canada. Supporters culture just arrived in this century. 

This is for both of you @El Diego @red card

What does "overtake" mean really? Structurally, Belgium will not catch up to France or Germany's infrastructure in our lifetime, but as of right now, they have a better starting eleven than the latter and arguably even the former. Our professional infrastructure is improving every year and could even mimic that small European country's in about ten years time. 

Will we "overtake" Mexico? I don't really care since it's a loaded question that means nothing to me. In the next 50 years, at any point in that time, will the Men's Canadian National Team have a better starting eleven than Mexico? I wouldn't be surprised if we fielded a stronger line up than them during a significant part of that time frame. I could even see us with a better starting eleven than Mexico in five years time. 

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Overtake Mexico?  Let's worry about overtaking Haiti first. FFS! 

Werent you the guy wishing Dias well with Portugal yesterday?

Let's remember that it's club infrastructures that better national teams...and not the other way around. Belgium made changes, which lead to the fruits that you now see. Soooooooo let's give the CPL at least 10 years before this is revisited. Because the comparisons are being absent minded of the simple facts like .....we just launch our first nation wide league in 2020, which doesn't have academies.

Please no more wood for the fire. Close this shit up.
 

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I’m with @Macksamhere. There is a very good possibility that we will field a better XI than Mexico in the decades to come. What does overtake really mean? Will anyone (Russia, USA, Sweden) ever overtake Canada in hockey? Will anyone overtake the USA in basketball? Does it matter?

Croatia will never overtake Argentina or England in footy but that didn’t stop them from beating them in the last World Cup. Belgium is #1 in the world but will never “overtake” Brazil. 
 

We are going to be a worry for Mexico and if we are what Sweden/Russia is to Canada in hockey we are right where we need to be. And we will be, if not better. 

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55 minutes ago, VinceA said:

This thread is hilarious.

 

We aren't better than Mexico. Won't be probably ever. Nothing wrong with that. That's just how it goes.

 

Can we eventually beat them on occasion? Sure why not.

Nobody said we were better than Mexico right now.

Won't ever be? We are literally two quality center backs away from being better than their current squad. This is with them being a footballing mad nation. Just imagine what the future holds when MLS becomes a top league that pays routine 7 figure salaries in the near future. What then? Envision even more of our top athletes choosing this sport because of that. Yes, you can draw your own conclusion from that.

1 hour ago, Shway said:

Let's remember that it's club infrastructures that better national teams...and not the other way around. Belgium made changes, which lead to the fruits that you now see. Soooooooo let's give the CPL at least 10 years before this is revisited. Because the comparisons are being absent minded of the simple facts like .....we just launch our first nation wide league in 2020, which doesn't have academies.

Please no more wood for the fire. Close this shit up.
 

I am well aware of the changes that were implemented in the early 2000s by the Belgian consulting firm, Double Pass I believe. They worked with both the German and Belgian football associations to transform both countries into powerhouses. 

Our situation will be a little different. I think you'll see the same "Vince Carter effect" on soccer as he had on basketball in the late 90s, kids getting high level training in the sport. The Athletes Institute located in Orangeville, very famous for honing basketball talents like Jamal Murray, just started their own soccer program recently.

1 hour ago, CanadaFan123 said:

I’m with @Macksamhere. There is a very good possibility that we will field a better XI than Mexico in the decades to come. What does overtake really mean? Will anyone (Russia, USA, Sweden) ever overtake Canada in hockey? Will anyone overtake the USA in basketball? Does it matter?

Croatia will never overtake Argentina or England in footy but that didn’t stop them from beating them in the last World Cup. Belgium is #1 in the world but will never “overtake” Brazil. 
 

We are going to be a worry for Mexico and if we are what Sweden/Russia is to Canada in hockey we are right where we need to be. And we will be, if not better. 

Listen to this man.

17 minutes ago, Shway said:

Close it up, reopen it when I’m a grandpa.

There's no reason to be afraid brother. Leave it open. 

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19 minutes ago, Macksam said:

Nobody said we were better than Mexico right now.

Won't ever be? We are literally two quality center backs away from being better than their current squad. This is with them being a footballing mad nation. Just imagine what the future holds when MLS becomes a top league that pays routine 7 figure salaries in the near future. What then? Envision even more of our top athletes choosing this sport because of that. Yes, you can draw your own conclusion from that.

I am well aware of the changes that were implemented in the early 2000s by the Belgian consulting firm, Double Pass I believe. They worked with both the German and Belgian football associations to transform both countries into powerhouses. 

Our situation will be a little different. I think you'll see the same "Vince Carter effect" on soccer as he had on basketball in the late 90s, kids getting high level training in the sport. The Athletes Institute located in Orangeville, very famous for honing basketball talents like Jamal Murray, just started their own soccer program recently.

Listen to this man.

There's no reason to be afraid brother. Leave it open. 

Let’s talk about our professional clubs, having professional academies first..... and not these one-off institutions (albeit there’s Vaughn and Sigma) Because currently we are still hoping that 3 clubs produce players, while the other 8 clubs take the castaways and the voyageurs  to try to promote and develop. Oh and hope that the young guys that get away early, still hope to play for Canada.

It’s not the fear, it’s the reality that we are still building and establishing the infrastructure.

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One thing that will be interesting is whether Davies and David can move the needle at all amongst the general Canadian sport fan. I think Mexico's greatest advantage is very similar to Canada's great advantage in hockey: the passion of the fans drives the infrastructure, the player development, the pressure to perform. I can't see us ever coming close to this passion unless something really dramatic changes. Hard to imagine half of Azteca filled with Canada supporters.

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2 hours ago, VinceA said:

This thread is hilarious.

 

We aren't better than Mexico. Won't be probably ever. Nothing wrong with that. That's just how it goes.

 

Can we eventually beat them on occasion? Sure why not.

The States were once regular whipping boys too, let's not forget. Some things do change, but won't for Canada if we continue to roll out essentially the same plan every decisive match at every critical point on every gender on every age group.

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10 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

One thing that will be interesting is whether Davies and David can move the needle at all amongst the general Canadian sport fan. I think Mexico's greatest advantage is very similar to Canada's great advantage in hockey: the passion of the fans drives the infrastructure, the player development, the pressure to perform. I can't see us ever coming close to this passion unless something really dramatic changes. Hard to imagine half of Azteca filled with Canada supporters.

It will if we make the world cup. 

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7 hours ago, Shway said:

Let’s talk about our professional clubs, having professional academies first..... and not these one-off institutions (albeit there’s Vaughn and Sigma) Because currently we are still hoping that 3 clubs produce players, while the other 8 clubs take the castaways and the voyageurs  to try to promote and develop. Oh and hope that the young guys that get away early, still hope to play for Canada.

It’s not the fear, it’s the reality that we are still building and establishing the infrastructure.

I think it’s safe to say there’s atleast 4 clubs that we can count on, Cavalry and Foothills deserve to be on that list, small sample size but sending a player to Spain, one moving up on loan and another to MLS in about 2 years time ain’t bad at all.

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And while I still think the premise of the thread is a bit silly, the pipeline to Madrid via Ottawa is something that could be beneficial in years to come - as will any similarly structured parent team relationships that spring up as CPL expands. 

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50 minutes ago, Dominic94 said:

I think it’s safe to say there’s atleast 4 clubs that we can count on, Cavalry and Foothills deserve to be on that list, small sample size but sending a player to Spain, one moving up on loan and another to MLS in about 2 years time ain’t bad at all.

Yea, yea ...cool. Still not enough to compare to Mexico.

30K+ in coaches
20K+ in referees
600K+ in registered players.

We have 11 professional clubs.
4-5 professional academies. 

We can't use other nations as analogies or comparison when they have had their infrastructure in place for years, but have found ways to tweak it. 

We are literally still building it out. While using international databases that seek young internationals at the expense of our own. 

We still have our best clubs playing in a different league than "our league", and our best club having more Americans than Canadians.

This is my last comment in this dumb absent-minded thread that neglects the basics that we obviously lack. Talent isn't one. Infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure. 

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1 minute ago, Shway said:

Yea, yea ...cool. Still not enough to compare to Mexico.

30K+ in coaches
20K+ in referees
600K+ in registered players.

We have 11 professional clubs.
4-5 professional academies. 

We can't use other nations as analogies or comparison when they have had their infrastructure in place for years, but have found ways to tweak it. 

We are literally still building it out. While using international databases that seek young internationals at the expense of our own. 

We still have our best clubs playing in a different league than "our league", and our best club having more Americans than Canadians.

This is my last comment in this dumb absent-minded thread that neglects the basics that we obviously lack. Talent isn't one. Infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure. 

There’s a huge misconception about the number of kids playing soccer in Canada, it’s almost at 1million and it’s more than the number playing hockey. So yes we don’t compare, we blow them out kids wise according to what you’ve found. 
 

We certainly don’t have the quality of coaching that they do, it’s area in need of serious help but thankfully Atletico has come to rescue Ottawa and the Whitecaps made a big investment Canada wide.

With the MLS next/reserve league I do believe that the Impact and Whitecaps will be required to have a 2nd team.

We actually have 12 teams I do count TFC 2 in this. I’d imagine we’ll see even more academies pop up and the effects of League 1 magnified. 
 

yes we are building it out and the CanPL will scout/verify internationals how it wants, I’d like to see the maximum drop to 6 but the youth requirement is excellent and should pave the way for that along with minimum salaries. Further more a potential partnership will only further enhance our coaching here. 
 

As for the Caliber of the league, it makes sense for them to play there, and last i checks the number of Americans on those teams have dropped and keep dropping and there’s almost 30 Canadians across the 3 of them now, rough estimate but they aren’t so American anymore. 
 

the infrastructure is in place now, it’s being expanded upon, the results will come.

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55 minutes ago, Shway said:

Yea, yea ...cool. Still not enough to compare to Mexico.

30K+ in coaches
20K+ in referees
600K+ in registered players.

We have 11 professional clubs.
4-5 professional academies. 

We can't use other nations as analogies or comparison when they have had their infrastructure in place for years, but have found ways to tweak it. 

We are literally still building it out. While using international databases that seek young internationals at the expense of our own. 

We still have our best clubs playing in a different league than "our league", and our best club having more Americans than Canadians.

This is my last comment in this dumb absent-minded thread that neglects the basics that we obviously lack. Talent isn't one. Infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure. 

That infrastructure is constantly improving. 

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15 hours ago, Dominic94 said:

Yea don’t think he’s coming back so soon if at all. Allure of Portugal is real.

His dad literally calls himself a Voyageur, I think you are missing that influence. He either really likes Canadian soccer or he likes looking in people's windows and made a spelling mistake.

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7 minutes ago, Ruffian said:

His dad literally calls himself a Voyageur, I think you are missing that influence. He either really likes Canadian soccer or he likes looking in people's windows and made a spelling mistake.

Ahahaha that was a good one. At the end of the day it’s not the dad’s choice, the kid feels Portuguese. I’ll love to be wrong, but I’m not convinced he’s coming back so soon at the very least. 

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15 hours ago, Macksam said:

 

This is for both of you @El Diego @red card

What does "overtake" mean really? Structurally, Belgium will not catch up to France or Germany's infrastructure in our lifetime, but as of right now, they have a better starting eleven than the latter and arguably even the former. Our professional infrastructure is improving every year and could even mimic that small European country's in about ten years time. 

Will we "overtake" Mexico? I don't really care since it's a loaded question that means nothing to me. In the next 50 years, at any point in that time, will the Men's Canadian National Team have a better starting eleven than Mexico? I wouldn't be surprised if we fielded a stronger line up than them during a significant part of that time frame. I could even see us with a better starting eleven than Mexico in five years time. 

I take it to mean having a better player pool (~50) and consistently getting better results in all competitive competitions (so for us Gold Cup, Nations League, and WC quals/WC finals). I don't think we necessarily need a better grass roots system than Mexico to meet my definition of "overtake", though in practice it may be necessary.

The Belgium example you highlight is probably the best and most realistic thing we can achieve -- super elite XI that we keep together for a while that gets high end results, and who cares so much about our B and C team. But I am not sure even if we get that if it will be sustainable. Hopefully it becomes a thing where this is a golden generation that sparks a real culture shift in this country. People usually think of a bottom up effect where we get the culture first, then we get a pathway and then results, but I think it is possible for a top down phenomenon to happen -- we get results first and that begins the culture/pathway. It's no guarantee by any stretch, but here's to hoping.

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16 hours ago, Macksam said:

 

This is for both of you @El Diego @red card

What does "overtake" mean really? Structurally, Belgium will not catch up to France or Germany's infrastructure in our lifetime, but as of right now, they have a better starting eleven than the latter and arguably even the former. Our professional infrastructure is improving every year and could even mimic that small European country's in about ten years time. 

Will we "overtake" Mexico? I don't really care since it's a loaded question that means nothing to me. In the next 50 years, at any point in that time, will the Men's Canadian National Team have a better starting eleven than Mexico? I wouldn't be surprised if we fielded a stronger line up than them during a significant part of that time frame. I could even see us with a better starting eleven than Mexico in five years time. 

Yes, there are different takes here on what it means to overtake Mexico. I need to see Canada consistently outperform Mexico in a few metrics. Can Canada place better in 3 out of 4 World Cups, qualify higher for 3 out of 4 World Cups, be higher FIFA ranked 75% of the time over a decade and place higher than Mexico in 3/5 Gold Cups.

2 million+ people in the Toronto area were really happy seeing the Raptors win. But does it mean the Raptors are now in the same echelon as the Celtics, Lakers or Warriors?

Likewise, Belgium hasn't consistently outranked France and haven't won anything yet. We'll see if they can finally deliver in the Euros and they do meet France in the Nations League semis in Oct. 

Canada men also have had one off success but still being structural weak has resulted in no consistent triumphs. We made the Olympics quarters and the WC in the 80s but let the emerging foundation that built it collapse. Won the Gold Cup in 2000 but immediately lost any traction from it by going into the ditch during WC qualifying for a variety of reasons.

I mentioned US failing in its 2010 project, China is similarly ranked as Canada and embarked on a project in 2016 to be first-class football power by 2050. They have already made a lot missteps and pulled back in various areas. And yes, China's population is much larger but they're looking to spend US$2 billion in stadiums, double pitches from 70k to 140k and host the WC in 2030. All backed by football loving President who can pull levers in both corporate and government worlds. But even he realizes the "success doesn't have to be during my time. It takes a long time to work, so continue to work hard, start from the basics.."

So, moneywise. infrastructurewise and politicallywise, Canada is proportionally nowhere doing what China is planning. But China only believes they can be a power 30 years from now.

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27 minutes ago, red card said:

Yes, there are different takes here on what it means to overtake Mexico. I need to see Canada consistently outperform Mexico in a few metrics. Can Canada place better in 3 out of 4 World Cups, qualify higher for 3 out of 4 World Cups, be higher FIFA ranked 75% of the time over a decade and place higher than Mexico in 3/5 Gold Cups.

2 million+ people in the Toronto area were really happy seeing the Raptors win. But does it mean the Raptors are now in the same echelon as the Celtics, Lakers or Warriors?

Likewise, Belgium hasn't consistently outranked France and haven't won anything yet. We'll see if they can finally deliver in the Euros and they do meet France in the Nations League semis in Oct. 

Canada men also have had one off success but still being structural weak has resulted in no consistent triumphs. We made the Olympics quarters and the WC in the 80s but let the emerging foundation that built it collapse. Won the Gold Cup in 2000 but immediately lost any traction from it by going into the ditch during WC qualifying for a variety of reasons.

I mentioned US failing in its 2010 project, China is similarly ranked as Canada and embarked on a project in 2016 to be first-class football power by 2050. They have already made a lot missteps and pulled back in various areas. And yes, China's population is much larger but they're looking to spend US$2 billion in stadiums, double pitches from 70k to 140k and host the WC in 2030. All backed by football loving President who can pull levers in both corporate and government worlds. But even he realizes the "success doesn't have to be during my time. It takes a long time to work, so continue to work hard, start from the basics.."

So, moneywise. infrastructurewise and politicallywise, Canada is proportionally nowhere doing what China is planning. But China only believes they can be a power 30 years from now.

The China project is an interesting one, I’m curious to see how it goes.

Coaching and training is a big part of it, we lack it and so do they.

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2 hours ago, El Diego said:

I take it to mean having a better player pool (~50) and consistently getting better results in all competitive competitions (so for us Gold Cup, Nations League, and WC quals/WC finals). I don't think we necessarily need a better grass roots system than Mexico to meet my definition of "overtake", though in practice it may be necessary.

The Belgium example you highlight is probably the best and most realistic thing we can achieve -- super elite XI that we keep together for a while that gets high end results, and who cares so much about our B and C team. But I am not sure even if we get that if it will be sustainable. Hopefully it becomes a thing where this is a golden generation that sparks a real culture shift in this country. People usually think of a bottom up effect where we get the culture first, then we get a pathway and then results, but I think it is possible for a top down phenomenon to happen -- we get results first and that begins the culture/pathway. It's no guarantee by any stretch, but here's to hoping.

I don’t think we ever needed a shift tbh, we have the numbers in terms of kids playing soccer and I think we all know someone who was good but couldn’t get a shot. The kids now need a chance, and they need the infrastructure to do it. 
 

relying on 3 teams to do it was never going to get us far but to be fair they’ve done well considering. As ive said before the effects of league 1 are showing and will only continue to show.

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We don't need to overtake Mexico. Its quite frankly not realistic (there's a massive gap at youth level alone, though I understand why a niche soccer forum would try to argue otherwise). But we can become more competitive to the point where we can consistently get positive results against them. How about we focus on actually making a final round of world cup qualifying first before even amusing the notion of "overtaking Mexico"...

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6 hours ago, El Diego said:

I take it to mean having a better player pool (~50) and consistently getting better results in all competitive competitions (so for us Gold Cup, Nations League, and WC quals/WC finals). I don't think we necessarily need a better grass roots system than Mexico to meet my definition of "overtake", though in practice it may be necessary.

The Belgium example you highlight is probably the best and most realistic thing we can achieve -- super elite XI that we keep together for a while that gets high end results, and who cares so much about our B and C team. But I am not sure even if we get that if it will be sustainable. Hopefully it becomes a thing where this is a golden generation that sparks a real culture shift in this country. People usually think of a bottom up effect where we get the culture first, then we get a pathway and then results, but I think it is possible for a top down phenomenon to happen -- we get results first and that begins the culture/pathway. It's no guarantee by any stretch, but here's to hoping.

I think top down is what's going to happen similar to the rise of basketball after the Raps came TO, which led to the eventual growth of development programs, etc. What will cause that top down phenomena? Either MLS actually becomes Major league over the next few years or Canada qualifies and does well at the world cup or both. 

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With all the talk of professional academies as if that is the only way to learn to play soccer, if I remember correctly, Ontario soccer made sweeping changes to youth soccer, including but not limited to the creation of the OPDL in 2014. There was also the move away from keeping standings at the younger age levels and I don't know what all else. It's possible these changes have played a role in the development of players in Ontario, but I don't actually know. I believe the private academies like Sigma are essentially completely separate from Ontario Soccer, or at least the OPDL.

Just thought I'd put that out there, without giving the time of day to the original topic.

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