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Think the league were planning higher salaries originally but downscaled big time once they realized that the membership drives back in the summer of 2018 were pointing to a lot lower than 6500-8000 paid being the norm in most markets (Halifax is the outlier obviously). It should be sobering that it sounds like several of the clubs were operating at a salary floor of 500k rather than the cap of 750k in year one. Don't think you need to be a rocket scientist to guess which two probably weren't doing that and what it did to competitive parity.

Main conclusion to be drawn is that the Mediapro $150 million is smoke and mirrors because if there really was a significant rights fee that extra $250k on player salaries wouldn't be such a big deal to several of the ownership groups, but can understand why players would be in show me the money mode after the way that was talked up by David Clanachan, if most of the CanCon in roster terms wound up on semi-pro money as has recently been described.  

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You didn’t receive criticism because of any specific piece of content you were posting. People reacted that way to you because of the way you chose to interact in this forum.  That is what made you th

So, remember the early years of TFC and MLS when the young Canadian homegrowns were making 15K and we were criticizing their pay?  In less than 10 years, the homegrown salary is now 50-60K which is ve

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Everyone would like salaries to increase because it will inevitably mean the league is getting better and healthy. Concacaf Champions league is a big component. Media and just overall interest not to mention inevitably bigger crowds for MLS and LigaMX games. Right now the attitude has to be be survive and advance. Hopefully soon the league can move out of survival mode and back to a positive trajectory and we can all be happy 

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https://northerntribune.ca/pfa-canada-golden-spoon-athletes/

I feel like pretty significant news is getting buried under the headlines right now:

Quote

 

According to PFA Canada’s legal counsel, Paul Champ, he has heard claims that CPL sides have colluded with one another to encourage athletes to re-sign on existing contract offers and prevent certain roster moves from taking place.

"CLUBS AGREE WITH EACH OTHER WHICH PLAYERS THEY WILL OR WILL NOT NEGOTIATE WITH. THAT IS COLLUSION. IT INTERFERES WITH THE PLAYER’S RIGHT TO NEGOTIATE WITH ANY CLUB."

-Paul Champ

Anecdotally, this is something that Northern Tribune has heard from a handful of players, one of whom described their own experience with club collusion as having taken place within the current offseason.

 

..remember, this is not 'single entity' ... 

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While collusion in a monopolistic sense might be a problem (and here I do not know what if any FIFA rules might apply), it is true that many clubs in many leagues make unofficial non-aggression pacts. You can't be constantly raiding everyone of your rivals. But if a player on a one-year contract thinks he is in the open market and finds there are no bites, then discovers that teams have agreed not to talk to him, then that seems wrong. 

I am just searching to understand in what way it's wrong. Could someone sort that out for us?

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1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

While collusion in a monopolistic sense might be a problem (and here I do not know what if any FIFA rules might apply), it is true that many clubs in many leagues make unofficial non-aggression pacts. You can't be constantly raiding everyone of your rivals. But if a player on a one-year contract thinks he is in the open market and finds there are no bites, then discovers that teams have agreed not to talk to him, then that seems wrong. 

I am just searching to understand in what way it's wrong. Could someone sort that out for us?

It's also infamously hard to prove for something like an anti-trust case (or at least so I heard, definitely not my expertise).

But these accusations go in line with the secret drafts the first dibs at hometown players etc.

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2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

While collusion in a monopolistic sense might be a problem (and here I do not know what if any FIFA rules might apply), it is true that many clubs in many leagues make unofficial non-aggression pacts. You can't be constantly raiding everyone of your rivals. But if a player on a one-year contract thinks he is in the open market and finds there are no bites, then discovers that teams have agreed not to talk to him, then that seems wrong. 

I am just searching to understand in what way it's wrong. Could someone sort that out for us?

If there were no other game in town it would be very bad.  But there are leagues all over the place, leagues with low wages (lower than CPL) and high wages for the bigger stars etc etc.  There is nothing keeping them from looking elsewhere.  Except that the CPL owners have put a premium on playing canadians and have given chances to guys that were never getting a look in USL let alone MLS.  Some older guys are pissed they didnt make enough, but some are making their first pro money and have parlayed the chance into other leagues and presumably more pay.  So its not like the players are indentured servants.

I'm not really sure what everyone expected, with all the uncertainty and talk of cancelling last year entirely, plus the ongoing financial hit all the teams have taken, I'd say just keeping the lights on and having a semi normal season this year would be a win.  As others have pointed out lots of guys were making shit money on minimum contacts when TFC joined MLS, and that league was well established.  This really seems like a pecking party with many participants a little too eager to draw blood.  

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2 hours ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

It's also infamously hard to prove for something like an anti-trust case (or at least so I heard, definitely not my expertise).

But these accusations go in line with the secret drafts the first dibs at hometown players etc.

This is common in pro sports in NA, see the NFL and MLB. Not leagues with stellar labour relations but the tactics employed by the CPL ownership are not at all unique to pro sports leagues.

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53 minutes ago, Shway said:

Olympique Montreal is way better name than Montreal Manic ...why’s they choose that name to revive.

Because it was available, and the Olympics would sue them if they tried to take the other name.  Older names were grandfathered in, but any new names aren't happening (even if the name was in existence previously). 

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4 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Worth a listen from 39:40 onwards. Unusually candid from a CanPL insider:

http://futbolweekly.com/?page_id=2729

 

Wow scathing interview.
 

Key points:
-corroborates $750k cap and blames salaries for early retirement of players. He reveals York previously operated with a minimum salary, but this changed in 2020 w rookies offered $10k
-Isacco sets aim at how the league does analytics through 21st Club, arguing that the algorithm undervalues local players and is used to justify paying them poverty wages, sometimes 5x less than some internationals
-That’s why players like Zambasis, Gogarty, Sacramento don’t have that opportunity to fail, because of this algorithms. Do you know how many Osorios and Kayes are out there that we don’t uncover? They might not even get a shot at #CanPL, not even a spot on the roster
-"[York] could’ve built a very sustainable model. Not only in standings, but in moving players on to MLS and Europe. We have the talent pool to build from, but we didn’t get the chance to do that. It’s upsetting that this isn’t coming to fruition." -Issaco

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I'm not an economist by any means, but with this discussion of $500K spend against a $750K cap, part of me wonders if there are CanPL owners who aren't holding out until 2026 and are gambling for some shorter term stability/additional cash flow by attracting value investment on an undervalued team (à la DC United in 2017).

Not to be a pessimist, but a tenured owner like Fath who has seen little to no ROI on FCE over a decade may be looking to sell sooner rather than later; I recall there being discussion of them cutting their academy entirely. Unless Katz decides to get involved, there won't be a proper soccer venue in their market anytime soon so why not sell?

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12 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Worth a listen from 39:40 onwards. Unusually candid from a CanPL insider:

http://futbolweekly.com/?page_id=2729

 

Interesting clarification for those few that have pretended that CPL is single entity when its not, listen at the 55 minute mark where its talked about how the CPL is not single entity, clubs/players are owned by the individual owners and their club, and profits from player sales go to the club. Most knew this anyway with multiple past clarifications but a good listen for some people.

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Just curious...

Anyone else caught that there was no mention of which season Rollins salary breakdown was referring to in his article?

As for the Union claim that clubs revenues were $2M, that was mainly based on Valour's 2019 financial statement. There would have virtually no way to know how much the other clubs made. If you read the wording of their tweet, the $500k is an "estimate" and aren't specifying which year they are talking about.

2020 saw player's wage cut by 25%, that brings your cap down to $562.5k. If you take Pacific who went in the Island Games with a reduced roster (17 players + 2 USports), the $500k starts to make sense.

I wasn't sure if this was covered and not sure if there were people under the impression that the $500k was applicable to 2019 because that would be very doubful

 

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Come on Ansem, dont let facts get in the way of a juicy story.  Of course the union would base the revenues on one of the clubs in the upper tier of attendance (Valour).    York probably brought in half that much.  And just a tip for Rollins, when you write an article that is full of the up till now, secret details about salary....put in the details. As in, which year you are quoting, if its 2020 does that already have the Covid pay cut taken out?  DO any or how many of those contract figures had accommidation money on the side etc etc??  You know little details like that are helpful, if you really have the best interests in the league and the players in mind, or even just interested in being a decent journo.  

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12 hours ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

Wow scathing interview.
 

Key points:
-corroborates $750k cap and blames salaries for early retirement of players. He reveals York previously operated with a minimum salary, but this changed in 2020 w rookies offered $10k
-Isacco sets aim at how the league does analytics through 21st Club, arguing that the algorithm undervalues local players and is used to justify paying them poverty wages, sometimes 5x less than some internationals
-That’s why players like Zambasis, Gogarty, Sacramento don’t have that opportunity to fail, because of this algorithms. Do you know how many Osorios and Kayes are out there that we don’t uncover? They might not even get a shot at #CanPL, not even a spot on the roster
-"[York] could’ve built a very sustainable model. Not only in standings, but in moving players on to MLS and Europe. We have the talent pool to build from, but we didn’t get the chance to do that. It’s upsetting that this isn’t coming to fruition." -Issaco

I don’t get his last point given how young York is going, if anything it is coming to fruition.

 

there are some concerning things with the 21st club and I’m not sure they’ll be around longer given that there has been pushbacks already, it will also hurt the league to lose its middle aged stars who could make jumps elsewhere you can’t sustain it like that. More bodies have to buried before a wage increase for domestics occur that is clear.

i agree that there’s a ton of Kaye’s and Osorios out there that we miss, and that won’t even play can PL but partly due to a lack of teams. Analytics should not be used as a sole means to evaluate a player.

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2 hours ago, Dominic94 said:

I don’t get his last point given how young York is going, if anything it is coming to fruition.

Based on the broader conversation, I am thinking he's implying that the pay disparities being justified by analytics means it's unsustainable for local players to stay in the game long enough to reach their prime. But also that even though there's young players right now, the algorithm will be biased towards foreign players and the tam won't stick with these players long enough (though he does say he believes the bias is caused by not having enough data with the league's short history so who knows if he thinks this changes longterm). Finally, he doesn't actually dismiss foreign players. In fact, he spoke of how crucial international players were to his development when he was a pro. But clearly, he sees the role of international players in the league as older veterans that can instill professional mentality with younger Canadians. He pointed to players like João Morelli and Malonga as assets - players with significant experience. Many of the York international players seem to be on the younger end, prospects being gambled on. He doesn't understand why we are bringing in those players when we have young players in the country with similar potential.

Remember this is a very different approach from 2019. When Carmine was around, they avoided these rock bottom contracts but instituting a minimum and avoiding major salary disparities (like the HFX model).

Either way, with Carmine's experience and pedigree in developing players - I'd listen if he thinks this model isn't going to work. There's been all these rumours about Carmine's friction with management, this is likely the reason. Which is a real shame, given how much of an asset Carmine is. I hope he's given an opportunity with a head coach job, but I doubt he'd be willing to leave the security of his York University job.

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8 hours ago, CDNFootballer said:

Interesting clarification for those few that have pretended that CPL is single entity when its not, listen at the 55 minute mark where its talked about how the CPL is not single entity, ....

Think you need to listen to that part more carefully. There's a lot more to acting as a single entity than how funds from player sales are handled and we were already well aware of the difference he described in that one narrow context. CSB clearly plays a similar role to SUM in an MLS context in terms of being a revenue sharing mechanism. It sounded to me like he was also saying CSB owns the league, which I don't remember hearing before. That means the league is collectively owned by the owners through their revenue sharing mechanism.

15 hours ago, CPLinsider said:

I'm not an economist by any means, but with this discussion of $500K spend against a $750K cap, part of me wonders if there are CanPL owners who aren't holding out until 2026 and are gambling for some shorter term stability/additional cash flow by attracting value investment on an undervalued team (à la DC United in 2017)...

Another way of looking at it is that they are waiting for the expected World Cup 2026 bump in interest but want to minimize the burn rate on investment capital in the interim. $250k over 8 seasons from 2019-2026 is $2 million so it adds up over time.

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot
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21 hours ago, Ansem said:

Just curious...

Anyone else caught that there was no mention of which season Rollins salary breakdown was referring to in his article?

As for the Union claim that clubs revenues were $2M, that was mainly based on Valour's 2019 financial statement. There would have virtually no way to know how much the other clubs made. If you read the wording of their tweet, the $500k is an "estimate" and aren't specifying which year they are talking about.

2020 saw player's wage cut by 25%, that brings your cap down to $562.5k. If you take Pacific who went in the Island Games with a reduced roster (17 players + 2 USports), the $500k starts to make sense.

I wasn't sure if this was covered and not sure if there were people under the impression that the $500k was applicable to 2019 because that would be very doubful

 

Also, is the issue of clubs paying for players housing/lodging included in the figures? With the players association I suspect it would not as they would downplay wages to their advantage and the club owners would include them to up play wages. This may be why there's the discrepancy between the association's estimate and the 750k cap figure.

In the end we don't have all the facts, just estimates on the side of the players association, the 750K cap clarification that came out initially by the Ottawa's Athletics guy that slipped it out, and mum from the CPL which is their right to discuss or not in the end.

Once the players association is recognized by the league at some point in the future more data will likely come out re the real salaries and cap etc.

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2 hours ago, CDNFootballer said:

Also, is the issue of clubs paying for players housing/lodging included in the figures? With the players association I suspect it would not as they would downplay wages to their advantage and the club owners would include them to up play wages. This may be why there's the discrepancy between the association's estimate and the 750k cap figure.

In the end we don't have all the facts, just estimates on the side of the players association, the 750K cap clarification that came out initially by the Ottawa's Athletics guy that slipped it out, and mum from the CPL which is their right to discuss or not in the end.

Once the players association is recognized by the league at some point in the future more data will likely come out re the real salaries and cap etc.

The only club that provides housing to the majority of the squad is HFX, largely because most of the squad comes from out of town.

At York, housing is pretty much only provided to international players, hence why it's referred to as 'international house'.

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23 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Come on Ansem, dont let facts get in the way of a juicy story.  Of course the union would base the revenues on one of the clubs in the upper tier of attendance (Valour).    York probably brought in half that much.  And just a tip for Rollins, when you write an article that is full of the up till now, secret details about salary....put in the details. As in, which year you are quoting, if its 2020 does that already have the Covid pay cut taken out?  DO any or how many of those contract figures had accommidation money on the side etc etc??  You know little details like that are helpful, if you really have the best interests in the league and the players in mind, or even just interested in being a decent journo.  

Questioning how accomodation's are factored in to the pay/salary cap is fair.  And you can question that Rollins should have specified what year the salaries were for, but when a player comes out and says "that's before the 25% pay cut", then I think it's pretty clear they're the 2019 figures.  So, I don't know why that part is being questioned or disputed.

 

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56 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Questioning how accomodation's are factored in to the pay/salary cap is fair.  And you can question that Rollins should have specified what year the salaries were for, but when a player comes out and says "that's before the 25% pay cut", then I think it's pretty clear they're the 2019 figures.  So, I don't know why that part is being questioned or disputed.

You have to question the veracity of Rollins' figures, for various reasons.

First, he provides no evidence--hearsay and unsourced does not constitute journalism. Second, he did not do a full survey. Third, players liking his article on Twitter does not mean its 100% correct.

Nor do figures make sense if you look at specific cases. Viti Martínez was on loan to Alavés B, and the minimum salary in 2B in Spain is about 52 thousand CDN a year (just under 3000 euros a mo.). So what is happening here? We are supposed to believe Viti comes back to A Ottawa to make 60% less than in Spain? When he could have signed in another 2B team for that income? He has to be making more than what has been reported, and no way he is even in the top 10 highest paid in the league. 

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15 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You have to question the veracity of Rollins' figures, for various reasons.

First, he provides no evidence--hearsay and unsourced does not constitute journalism. Second, he did not do a full survey. Third, players liking his article on Twitter does not mean its 100% correct.

Nor do figures make sense if you look at specific cases. Viti Martínez was on loan to Alavés B, and the minimum salary in 2B in Spain is about 52 thousand CDN a year (just under 3000 euros a mo.). So what is happening here? We are supposed to believe Viti comes back to A Ottawa to make 60% less than in Spain? When he could have signed in another 2B team for that income? He has to be making more than what has been reported, and no way he is even in the top 10 highest paid in the league. 

Protecting a source or failing to disclose a source is not the same as "hearsay or unsourced".  He said he talked to players.  He was unlikely to ever get players to go on the record with their salary disclosure or be able to survey everyone.  There's 100% going to be outliers. Bustos is rumoured to be at about $60k.  That doesn't make the general guidelines wrong either.  So to pick a player like Martinez and say "well obvioulsy these general numbers can't be right because of this ONE player" is also wrong, especially when we have no idea what his situation is.  Clubs across Europe are slashing salary for now, so maybe the opportunities in Spain weren't as promising.  People have been quick to point to Sissoko leaving Halifax and saying "it's not about the money", and without knowing more about why Martinez signed it's all speculation.

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1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You have to question the veracity of Rollins' figures, for various reasons.

First, he provides no evidence--hearsay and unsourced does not constitute journalism. Second, he did not do a full survey. Third, players liking his article on Twitter does not mean its 100% correct.

Nor do figures make sense if you look at specific cases. Viti Martínez was on loan to Alavés B, and the minimum salary in 2B in Spain is about 52 thousand CDN a year (just under 3000 euros a mo.). So what is happening here? We are supposed to believe Viti comes back to A Ottawa to make 60% less than in Spain? When he could have signed in another 2B team for that income? He has to be making more than what has been reported, and no way he is even in the top 10 highest paid in the league. 

Carmine Issaco said in the interview that there are some international players getting paid 50-70k in his interview. He suggests that's a reason why salaries get pushed to the lower end for local players.

Duane doesn't deny the existence of outliers. Bekker, Edgar are both known to be top earners, as was De Jong in his first season (think this was blamed for some roster issues in 2019).

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