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2021 CPL Season General News


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4 minutes ago, Big_M said:

again, four sessions and one game in terms of hours is part time..so if you cant pay someone full time salary for that theres nothing wrong with him getting a part time job

You have to factor in road trips though, York playing against say Pacific would be a good 12 hours in travel at least, let alone being away from the home city.

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You didn’t receive criticism because of any specific piece of content you were posting. People reacted that way to you because of the way you chose to interact in this forum.  That is what made you th

So, remember the early years of TFC and MLS when the young Canadian homegrowns were making 15K and we were criticizing their pay?  In less than 10 years, the homegrown salary is now 50-60K which is ve

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theres max one long road trip every other week and fifteen in a season..a thousand ways to work around that..player gets schedule before season and agrees with employer to not work those days..really not complicated and happens in many leagues in different sports 

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31 minutes ago, Big_M said:

theres max one long road trip every other week and fifteen in a season..a thousand ways to work around that..player gets schedule before season and agrees with employer to not work those days..really not complicated and happens in many leagues in different sports 

I would generally agree but almost every away trip is at least an overnighter, unlike playing lower league/non league football in Europe, for example.  Depending on the job and the job market, that flexibility may be difficult to obtain.

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3 hours ago, CPLinsider said:

From what I understand, practices for some of the CanPL teams are held early (6:30 or 7am) in the morning...

Never heard of that being done before, but that's actually a really good way to do it if you can handle the early start and would show they fully expect many of the players and probably also some of the coaching staff to be doing something else to earn some coin. Fun part comes if after a week of doing that in Nova Scotia you have an evening kick off on Vancouver Island. 

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On 2/15/2021 at 2:29 PM, yellowsweatygorilla said:

For all those heaping criticism at the unionization effort (and I'll add that it can come off as pretty patronizing to players assuming that they aren't willing to consider league feasibility whether intended or not), I'd hope people empathize and consider creative solutions to address player welfare.

Its not up to the fans to give creative solutions or address players welfare though, that's between the clubs and the players themselves.

 

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CPL has often been compared by some to the USL in terms of level of play and salaries in its initial year of operation, in that respect they are doing well as USL salaries have been low for years and many players in the US league have second jobs as their salaries alone are not sufficient. USL is a league that's been around for years and only last year had a players association come about which will likely increase their wages, albiet slowly.

CPL salaries will rise and the league will grow but things are still shakey for the league, especially in this time of this pandemic, and they have to consider what's best for the league and players as a whole, not raise salaries to a level too early that will hamper the leagues growth and stability.

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29 minutes ago, CDNFootballer said:

Its not up to the fans to give creative solutions or address players welfare though, that's between the clubs and the players themselves.

 

And my point all along is for fans to support the unionization efforts so that players have a seat at the table to address the issue. Players have reached out to many people, including me, to express their frustrations. Fans need to be that added leverage. It also shouldn't be up to fans to cheerlead and make excuses for the owners and management.

A lack of solidarity with the labour struggle is to dehumanize players for the sake of our entertainment - a pretty repugnant act that I hope 'supporters' avoid.

Edited by yellowsweatygorilla
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21 minutes ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

And my point all along is for fans to support the unionization efforts so that players have a seat at the table to address the issue. Players have reached out to many people, including me, to express their frustrations. Fans need to be that added leverage. It also shouldn't be up to fans to cheerlead and make excuses for the owners and management.

A lack of solidarity with the labour struggle is to dehumanize players for the sake of our entertainment - a pretty repugnant act that I hope 'supporters' avoid.

Why do the fans have to support one side over the other? If its not up to fans to " cheerlead and make excuses for the owners and management" then its also not up to the fans to support the unionization effort.

Your opinion and view of " the labour struggle" and "dehumanize players for the sake of our entertainment" is something that some fans may have and others obviously won't agree with, fans simply don't have to get involved in this divisive issue.

Some fans may be driven by a certain political persuasion to view things like yourself but many won't share your same opinion and don't need to pick sides or get involved in whats really a player and club owner issue, not a fan issue.

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35 minutes ago, CDNFootballer said:

Why do the fans have to support one side over the other? If its not up to fans to " cheerlead and make excuses for the owners and management" then its also not up to the fans to support the unionization effort.

Your opinion and view of " the labour struggle" and "dehumanize players for the sake of our entertainment" is something that some fans may have and others obviously won't agree with, fans simply don't have to get involved in this divisive issue.

Some fans may be driven by a certain political persuasion to view things like yourself but many won't share your same opinion and don't need to pick sides or get involved in whats really a player and club owner issue, not a fan issue.

There is a difference between supporting workers and making excuses for management, because there exists a power imbalance between labourers and bosses - there is no neutrality on a moving train.

You are certainly right to suggest that fans are driven by political persuasion - so it's a question of whether you see 'this' as a community building project that includes players (recognizing as Nathan Kalman-Lamb says "athletes need a system that does not require them to sacrifice their bodies to allow other workers to feel whole") or as passive consumption of entertainment. I suppose if that's the disjuncture, there's nothing else to add.

Edited by yellowsweatygorilla
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36 minutes ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

There is a difference between supporting workers and making excuses for management, because there exists a power imbalance between labourers and bosses - there is no neutrality on a moving train.

You are certainly right to suggest that fans are driven by political persuasion - so it's a question of whether you see 'this' as a community building project that includes players (recognizing as Nathan Kalman-Lamb says "athletes need a system that does not require them to sacrifice their bodies to allow other workers to feel whole") or as passive consumption of entertainment. I suppose if that's the disjuncture, there's nothing else to add.

I think you are over simplifying things, if you want to get into a Marxist discussion then we really are going down the rabbit hole.  If as a fan what can I do (as I mentioned in another post, I support unions, worked with them most of my professional life) my most radical position would be to cancel my OneSoccer subscription, don't buy any club merchandise and boycott games.

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1 hour ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

There is a difference between supporting workers and making excuses for management, because there exists a power imbalance between labourers and bosses - there is no neutrality on a moving train.

You are certainly right to suggest that fans are driven by political persuasion - so it's a question of whether you see 'this' as a community building project that includes players (recognizing as Nathan Kalman-Lamb says "athletes need a system that does not require them to sacrifice their bodies to allow other workers to feel whole") or as passive consumption of entertainment. I suppose if that's the disjuncture, there's nothing else to add.

So basically people have an ideology and just apply it blindly to every situation. People may like wearing shorts but if its -30 put on pants and a jacket

Edited by SpursFlu
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Well this conversation certainly went sideways quick. I'm not sure what you guys are even talking about. I don't think anyone expected the CPL to be able to offer life changing money in the first couple years.

Conversely, everyone is saying how low these salaries are. How about how great the salaries are for the Usport guys. They can make more/similar than they would at a summer job, develop their game, and go back to school in the fall. If that was around 10 years ago I would be all over that.

Also, something to think about. There are 1200 of the best 16-20 hockey players in the world that play significantly more games for basically free. ($50/a week). While some of the owners are making millions. These players are playing for the opportunity, fun, and the hope to move on to bigger and better things (same idea as CPL). I agree if I was 30 years old making $30,000 a year thats not realistic, but for the younger guys this is an unreal setup. 

Also screw Rollins. I dont care if he owns this site or w.e. If a players agent says that his guy got a good offer from CPL, but he turned it down for reasons besides money then that is a dirt bag thing to do to say otherwise

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I'll play.  MIllion thoughts but basically, once boiled down. 

1).  Don't be afraid of a CPL players union.  If you're afraid of a CPL players union kittens must terrify you.  Please, seek help.*

2).  The above being true, what's the problem the CPL has with a players union exactly?  

3).  And lastly, since Rollins is getting kicked a bit on here I have to ask does anyone really think his article, suggesting the viability of the CPL cannot be divorced from the necessity of fielding a reasonable on-filed product is fundamentally wrong?  Because I don't. 

That's because I don't believe there is a huge enough pool of Canadian talent out there willing to participate in this league, at any personal cost, that the CPL can suffer a level of serious attrition losing player to the "real world" without serious consiquences in support. 

No one stops going to CPL matches because the league didn't spend the money to have a professional web-site.   

*  Disclaimer.  Not a shot at those a feline allergy!   

 

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6 hours ago, Cheeta said:

... That's because I don't believe there is a huge enough pool of Canadian talent out there willing to participate in this league, at any personal cost, hat the CPL can suffer a level of serious attrition losing player to the "real world" without serious consiquences in support....

Agreed but the thing is, if the Rollins' payscale information is accurate, they are very much targeting the relatively small number of genuinely liveable if still less than stellar salaries at the quota of imports rather than the domestic players, so they may well have factored in that attrition as part of their overall strategy to suppress domestic player salaries.

I received all kinds of ridicule and abuse from the usual suspects on here for highlighting the crowd averages of the clubs the import players were coming from but for anybody who knew how the international transfer market works it should have been a red flag that they were very much raking around the bargain bins on that. It was bizarre that anybody would have thought players like Simon Adjei, Adam Mitter and Stephen Hoyle would be an upgrade over what they could find locally. If you are only offering $35k you are a long way down the pecking order in terms of who can be attracted on a Bosman.

So two years on, have they realized that they should scale back on imports and target more of the liveable salaries at Canadians? No, if anything they have doubled down on the original strategy with "secret drafts" and forcing all clubs to take a minimum of four imports approved by an agency with a deal in place with the league. That means nobody can now emulate what Pacific did in 2019 and have very few imports so more money could be targeted at veteran former CMNT players. So much for the idea that this is a league full of independent clubs rather than single entity franchises.

 

 

Edited by Ozzie_the_parrot
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3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

. It was bizarre that anybody would have thought players like Simon Adjei, Adam Mitter and Stephen Hoyle would be an upgrade over what they could find locally.

I know it's not really your main point but Adjei is probably a bad example. He was the top scorer with 27 goals in 25 games last year in the Swedish 3rd Division and managed to make a move to a first Division mid table team this year. 

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10 hours ago, Stryker911 said:

Well this conversation certainly went sideways quick. I'm not sure what you guys are even talking about. I don't think anyone expected the CPL to be able to offer life changing money in the first couple years.

Conversely, everyone is saying how low these salaries are. How about how great the salaries are for the Usport guys. They can make more/similar than they would at a summer job, develop their game, and go back to school in the fall. If that was around 10 years ago I would be all over that.

Also, something to think about. There are 1200 of the best 16-20 hockey players in the world that play significantly more games for basically free. ($50/a week). While some of the owners are making millions. These players are playing for the opportunity, fun, and the hope to move on to bigger and better things (same idea as CPL). I agree if I was 30 years old making $30,000 a year thats not realistic, but for the younger guys this is an unreal setup. 

Also screw Rollins. I dont care if he owns this site or w.e. If a players agent says that his guy got a good offer from CPL, but he turned it down for reasons besides money then that is a dirt bag thing to do to say otherwise

This.

By reading some of the rhetoric here you would think the players have been kidnapped by Danny Devito's character in Space Jam and forced to play. If they don't like the salaries on offer and they feel they can do better they can move to another career or league (if they're good enough).

The market doesn't lie. If you've weighed your professional options and wound up in CPL that's your level and/or choice. Many of these players would be in L1O, 3rd division Sweden or USL if not for CPL. You're entitled to a chance with this league, not a living. 

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13 hours ago, CDNFootballer said:

Why do the fans have to support one side over the other? If its not up to fans to " cheerlead and make excuses for the owners and management" then its also not up to the fans to support the unionization effort.

Some fans may be driven by a certain political persuasion to view things like yourself but many won't share your same opinion and don't need to pick sides or get involved in whats really a player and club owner issue, not a fan issue.

It all depends on what fans want out of this league.

For a person that just wants to watch some local soccer, or follow from afar ... they don't have much of a stake in the player pay issue - because, ultimately, the level of play and player stability and long-term development is secondary to the emotion of seeing their team play players nominally representing Halifax or Winnipeg or Victoria rather than Flint or Des Moines or Charlotte. Is a fan OK with a Canadianized-USL or PDL experience then the salaries etc don't really matter.

For a fan that wants this league to foster talent for the Nats and provide a viable domestic soccer career path for 7-8 players per team, then the salaries and benefits and working conditions are a bit more critical to their hopes and desires for the league.

I think the fear of the union is kinda goofy, as even with a union the players still only have minimal market leverage. There are plenty of players willing to take a shot even at these Kraft dinner salaries and pretty much zero need for owners to keep up a certain level of play because the fans that follow the league are in it for the emotion and not the quality. The only people that will stop watching CanPL because players like Edgar or Carreiro or Gasparotto have joined the real working world are those players's parents.

But union fan or not, there is some really incongruent thinking going on ... a weird mix of dreaming for a second tier and pro/rel, dismissing the long-term implications of low salaries, wanting to see success against MLS and Champions league sides, justifying the opportunity of making salaries that most of us would never take, yet wanting CanPL players with the Nats, and wondering why more foreign-based Nats haven't come home.

After a quarter century of following this stuff, I get we're still in cricle the wagons mode - but we will have to decide what kind of league we want.

And if fans don't push, the league will decide for us.

Edited by The Real Marc
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Well I 100% support the Union being certified but I also totally understand why the salaries are so low right now.

I actually am totally optimistic about the league. While I don't think we will ever get to MLS salary levels there is no reason the cap can't be decent and the minimum salary be a livable wage.

Edited by narduch
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20 minutes ago, narduch said:

Well I 100% support the Union being certified but I also totally understand why the salaries are so low right now.

I actually am totally optimistic about the league. While I don't think we will every get to MLS salary levels there is no reason the cap can't be decent and the minimum salary be a livable wage.

I think we can see salaries be 30-100k in the next 5 years. 

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28 minutes ago, Mikmacdo said:

I think we can see salaries be 30-100k in the next 5 years. 

It should be a natural boost especially after the World Cup and with new expansion clubs projected to come in before that we should also see increases to the salary cap. 

I feel like 2M before 2025 is feasible.

Edited by Shway
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34 minutes ago, Mikmacdo said:

I think we can see salaries be 30-100k in the next 5 years. 

I also argue that the 2023 CCL expansion accelerates CPL's timeline to get there. 

Spending more on wages to get better talent will be crucial to be at least competitive when facing MLS and Liga MX clubs. The good news is that playing at least 4 CCL games against continental giants will be massive for clubs and the league

  • Media coverage (CPL can't be ignored anymore)
  • More sponsors due to continental reach
  • Sold out stadiums which increases revenues for clubs
  • solidifying and expanding the fan-base - yes, you get to see your club gets smashed by Club America
  • Increase in merchandise sale, potentially season tickets as the CPL campaign now means that much more
  • Clubs will want to spend to reach and compete in CCL - you might see pressure from owners to be able to achieve this

I'm not saying that you need a $5M cap to compete but you need to have consistent performances like Forge who defeated Tauro at the very least while being at the level of some of Honduras and Costa Rica clubs. If there's an opportunity to achieve that with a $1.5M cap - they should do it and build on that by increasing it as revenues go up

Not that CPL is expected to advance but being competitive will attract more fans, thus more revenues to increase wages. I don't see them staying at $750k in 2023 and going to the slaughterhouse. Continental humiliations is bad for credibility and business.

 

Another big detail that seems to be forgotten

  1. Higher wages DOESN'T mean that the current players asking for them will get significantly more. There should be a floor but it might not be as high as people hope for.
  2. If a club is willing to spend $50k, will they go on the market to sign a player worth $50k or will they increase the pay of someone making $20k who isn't as good? --> Do you increase Allan Zebie's wage or do you make a good offer to Ashtone Morgan? Do you increase Austin Ricci pay or sign Anthony Jackson-Hamel?

Significant increase in cap means

  1. Better players gets signed with good pay
  2. CPL starters gets pushed back to the bench
  3. CPL benchers might end up with no contracts

Another reason why a D2 is so important. CPL going "2.0" means better wages and players but those who no longer make the top tier have a D2 option to fall back on.

I'm betting that CCL might accelerate things but there won't be a D2 until after 2026...

Edited by Ansem
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The real irony is that the current players pushing for the increase in salary may find themselves out of a job because with higher salaries they'll surely find better options. I think the owners have done a fantastic job to date and I'm happy to see it grow organically. In terms of a "normal league" we've only had ONE year. It's just ludicrous to be having these arguments this early and in the midst of a pandemic. 

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https://www.fifpro.org/en/about-us/canadian-union-looks-to-improve-working-conditions

Official release on PFA Canada joining FIFPRO, highlighting poverty wages, need for minimums, autocratic management + lack of independent arbitration, and addressing women player issues.


Imagine how different things could've been if the league engaged in voluntary certification and worked with the players from the start. This article in front of a world footballing audience could've been about a fledging league working with players to find solutions in the face of challenges around pandemic, establishing football as a Canadian sport etc. No one to fault but league management themselves...

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6 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

That means nobody can now emulate what Pacific did in 2019 and have very few imports so more money could be targeted at veteran former CMNT players.

I've heard Pacific plans to go with very few internationals again, and that they'll just leave the dedicated international roster spots open and go with another short roster. Apparently that's some sort of loophole. 

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